Woo
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Post by Woo on Aug 28, 2015 12:17:15 GMT -5
I wonder if the Eva Marie defenders were also fans of Giant Gonzalez too. Since I have, and will, defend Eva Marie I guess I will respond to this remark. First off when he was around as El Gigante and Giant Gonzales I was a kid and didn't care about or know what workrate was. I just thought it was cool to have someone that tall (I was a big Andre fan). Can't call myself a fan of his as I my favorites were The Rockers, Demolition, Mr. Perfect and Tatanka. So can't say I was a fan. Since you are making the comparison. There is a BIG difference between Giant Gonzales and Eva. Giant Gonzales was booked as an attraction in the two biggest companies in the world with "training" not being on the agenda. Eva Marie is training to improve and is in developmental, which is a long way off from wrestling Taker and main event stars in the two biggest companies in the world. Big difference If someone is not good enough at a job I would first ask if they were properly trained to do that job. Which will bring me to the next point: She is training right now. In your job (or any job) when you have a spot open you train someone for that spot. You don't hire a trainee and then hire another person to do that job. You work with the trainee and help them improve. When they are ready you cut them loose and the spot is filled. Right now Eva is training. She hasn't been cut loose to the main roster. She is in NXT to improve and to learn. I've watched the match with Carmella and while it wasn't a "good" match it was far from the worse match I've ever seen. I saw some postive in the match. She has her character down pretty good and also handled a pretty hostile crowd quite well nd didn't seem to get thrown off by them. The layout of the match wasn't bad but she needs to become a lot crisper with her moves but that will come with experience and more training. Trish was pretty horrible when she started and ended up becoming one of the all-time greats. Not saying Eva will become as good as Trish Stratus but if she keeps working and focused on her training I see no reason she can't become a solid mid-card women's wrestler. Will she? don't know. But that is what NXT is for, to train inexperienced workers and get them adjusted to the WWE style. If there comes a point where they believe she simply can't improve enough to be a competent worker then they'll have to make a descision to either release her or reassign her. Until then she has time to improve and work on her craft. You don't fire a trainee without giving them ample time to train. If she's still training then she shouldn't be poised to be challenging for the Womens Championship. I think a lot of the confusion comes from those that think NXT is a developmental system and those, like me, who think NXT has gone above and beyond that given HHH's comments and the fact it is now a touring brand about to go international. Yes, she's not ready for the main roster, but she's not ready for NXT either and she needs to stay in the performance centre until she is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 12:20:59 GMT -5
Since I have, and will, defend Eva Marie I guess I will respond to this remark. First off when he was around as El Gigante and Giant Gonzales I was a kid and didn't care about or know what workrate was. I just thought it was cool to have someone that tall (I was a big Andre fan). Can't call myself a fan of his as I my favorites were The Rockers, Demolition, Mr. Perfect and Tatanka. So can't say I was a fan. Since you are making the comparison. There is a BIG difference between Giant Gonzales and Eva. Giant Gonzales was booked as an attraction in the two biggest companies in the world with "training" not being on the agenda. Eva Marie is training to improve and is in developmental, which is a long way off from wrestling Taker and main event stars in the two biggest companies in the world. Big difference If someone is not good enough at a job I would first ask if they were properly trained to do that job. Which will bring me to the next point: She is training right now. In your job (or any job) when you have a spot open you train someone for that spot. You don't hire a trainee and then hire another person to do that job. You work with the trainee and help them improve. When they are ready you cut them loose and the spot is filled. Right now Eva is training. She hasn't been cut loose to the main roster. She is in NXT to improve and to learn. I've watched the match with Carmella and while it wasn't a "good" match it was far from the worse match I've ever seen. I saw some postive in the match. She has her character down pretty good and also handled a pretty hostile crowd quite well nd didn't seem to get thrown off by them. The layout of the match wasn't bad but she needs to become a lot crisper with her moves but that will come with experience and more training. Trish was pretty horrible when she started and ended up becoming one of the all-time greats. Not saying Eva will become as good as Trish Stratus but if she keeps working and focused on her training I see no reason she can't become a solid mid-card women's wrestler. Will she? don't know. But that is what NXT is for, to train inexperienced workers and get them adjusted to the WWE style. If there comes a point where they believe she simply can't improve enough to be a competent worker then they'll have to make a descision to either release her or reassign her. Until then she has time to improve and work on her craft. You don't fire a trainee without giving them ample time to train. Nobody's saying that it's a bad thing Eva is in NXT to train. We're just saying that it shouldn't be a televised process, and that she sure as hell shouldn't be anywhere near the Women's Title or a title push. Getting a belt because she's trying hard spits in the face of all the talented women NXT has, and has had, on the roster who don't need two years to improve from "terrible" to "mildly less terrible."
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Aug 28, 2015 12:30:28 GMT -5
Nobody's saying that it's a bad thing Eva is in NXT to train. We're just saying that it shouldn't be a televised process, and that she sure as hell shouldn't be anywhere near the Women's Title or a title push. Getting a belt because she's trying hard spits in the face of all the talented women NXT has, and has had, on the roster who don't need two years to improve from "terrible" to "mildly less terrible." She hasn't gotten a belt yet so it would probably be best to wait until that happens, if it ever happens to see how she performs and how it is booked. I understad not wanting her on TV. I'm of the opinion that practice can only do so much and sometimes working in front of a crowd and a television audience can help someone improve better than at a performance center. TV presents different challenge such as working for the hard camera and interacting with the crowd. It is possible that she is doing better at the center than at TV and they are trying to get her to work past her jitter and to perform better on live TV, which is possible. Don't know. But I do think there are positive in getting live TV training. Reminds me a lot of watching college news broadcasts. Lots of students appearing on camera on college news are quite horrible but appearing on TV eventually helps them find their voice. Even though NXT has exploded in popularity I do still consider it developmental. The day they stop moving people "up" to Raw will be the day I don't consider it one. I do agree that she needs to improve a whole lot before she even sniffs the belt. Right now she is nowhere near ready enough to be in a championship match/feud.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Aug 28, 2015 12:31:47 GMT -5
I'm glad she's improving, but she's still worse than Dana Brooke, who I think also needs to be taken off TV and relegated to live shows given NXT's current rise above being just a developmental. Devin Taylor wrestles on the live shows too, for example.
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Post by Wrestling Curmudgeon on Aug 28, 2015 12:33:54 GMT -5
You have a young lady who was hired solely to be part of a reality show. She gets thrown into the deep end with a minimum of training and isn't very good. Despite barely being on tv and barely having actual matches, she decides to get proper training on her own time (even though she doesn't have to since she was only signed for this reality show). Eva Marie: I suck and want to get better so I can actually add something to the product. ^Somehow in twisted wrestling fan logic this is a reason to crap all over her. I wonder if anyone is going to use that bs "We aren't booing Eva Marie, we're booing WWE" excuse. She can get better off my TV and in the performance center.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,297
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Post by Woo on Aug 28, 2015 12:45:14 GMT -5
Nobody's saying that it's a bad thing Eva is in NXT to train. We're just saying that it shouldn't be a televised process, and that she sure as hell shouldn't be anywhere near the Women's Title or a title push. Getting a belt because she's trying hard spits in the face of all the talented women NXT has, and has had, on the roster who don't need two years to improve from "terrible" to "mildly less terrible." She hasn't gotten a belt yet so it would probably be best to wait until that happens, if it ever happens to see how she performs and how it is booked. I understad not wanting her on TV. I'm of the opinion that practice can only do so much and sometimes working in front of a crowd and a television audience can help someone improve better than at a performance center. TV presents different challenge such as working for the hard camera and interacting with the crowd. It is possible that she is doing better at the center than at TV and they are trying to get her to work past her jitter and to perform better on live TV, which is possible. Don't know. But I do think there are positive in getting live TV training. Reminds me a lot of watching college news broadcasts. Lots of students appearing on camera on college news are quite horrible but appearing on TV eventually helps them find their voice. Even though NXT has exploded in popularity I do still consider it developmental. The day they stop moving people "up" to Raw will be the day I don't consider it one. I do agree that she needs to improve a whole lot before she even sniffs the belt. Right now she is nowhere near ready enough to be in a championship match/feud. By all means have her go out there and wrestle in front of the crowd and yes filming it is a terrific idea which should be used for all new recruits, but the filming it of it should be used for training purposes rather than television.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
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Post by Professor Chaos on Aug 28, 2015 13:32:09 GMT -5
All these she shouldn't be wrestling on TV arguments, but she's not. She's wrestling on a streaming platform on a show which in kayfabe is inferior to being on Superstars or Main Event.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Aug 28, 2015 13:36:49 GMT -5
All these she shouldn't be wrestling on TV arguments, but she's not. She's wrestling on a streaming platform on a show which in kayfabe is inferior to being on Superstars or Main Event. Uhh... I watch NXT on my television.
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Post by Prince Petty on Aug 28, 2015 13:46:19 GMT -5
She is learning. That's all I think can be said about her wrestling skills. She seems comfortable with the bitchy character she's playing, and plays off the negative audience reactions well. Which is more than can be said for some women the WWE has had on its books.
They should have given her more time at the Performance Center, they should have stuck her down there full time and got Sara Del Ray to put her through the wringer, but the WWE didn't want that. It's not Eva Marie's fault when they decide to put her on television before she's ready. And there's not a person on that roster who would say, 'no thanks, I'm not ready'. Can you imagine Vince's reaction to someone saying that when he's giving them an "opportunity"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 13:46:29 GMT -5
All these she shouldn't be wrestling on TV arguments, but she's not. She's wrestling on a streaming platform on a show which in kayfabe is inferior to being on Superstars or Main Event. I've heard of splitting hairs before but this is just ridiculous. You're better than that, Butters.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2015 13:56:54 GMT -5
Let's just wait and see. See how it goes.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
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Post by Professor Chaos on Aug 28, 2015 14:22:13 GMT -5
All these she shouldn't be wrestling on TV arguments, but she's not. She's wrestling on a streaming platform on a show which in kayfabe is inferior to being on Superstars or Main Event. Uhh... I watch NXT on my television. So do I. Until she's wrestling on USA or SyFy affecting ratings I don't see the she shouldn't be wrestling on TV argument. Unless people are saying they are going to cancel their Network subscription because Eva wrestles on NXT it doesn't affect WWE.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 14:39:13 GMT -5
Much like the Bella's, they were stupid to hire her, but at least she is trying.
When I watched her two recent matches, I can actually see that she has ring psychology down, and she knows how to do the moves. She's moving slow and awkward because she should still be in wrestling school, not having actual matches on the current most buzzed about wrestling show. However, I do think with time her matches will get better. I'm not saying she going to be Charlotte or anything, but I think she will become decent enough.
In the meantime though. Since they are insisting on putting her on TV, at least she's a heel so people can boo her. Whether it's the "wrong kind" of heat can be argued, but these days what heel actually gets heel heat? People either cheer them or boo because they don't like the way they are booked.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Aug 28, 2015 14:40:48 GMT -5
Uhh... I watch NXT on my television. So do I. Until she's wrestling on USA or SyFy affecting ratings I don't see the she shouldn't be wrestling on TV argument. Unless people are saying they are going to cancel their Network subscription because Eva wrestles on NXT it doesn't affect WWE. That's really not the argument though. The argument's more "this girl doesn't hold up to the standard that wrestlers on TV, especially for the biggest company in the world, should be held to." Really don't got anything to do with ratings. At the end of the day, the weekly show, even if it's on the Network, is NXT's TV. That's why it exists and what's it meant to emulate. Not to mention the local and international deals where it actually is on TV.
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Post by Wrestling Curmudgeon on Aug 28, 2015 15:42:28 GMT -5
All these she shouldn't be wrestling on TV arguments, but she's not. She's wrestling on a streaming platform on a show which in kayfabe is inferior to being on Superstars or Main Event. She's wrestling on WWE television, which by and large means it's presented as a product, which I pay for. And watch, ON MY TELEVISION. You're being way too technical for this conversation.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Aug 28, 2015 15:54:51 GMT -5
Here's the problem with Eva Marie: for months people were hyping her up because she was training with Kendrick. Because of these GIFs and Instagram videos she was showing off of some of the highlights of her training. Because they wanted to believe that somehow she had turned things around completely. And hey, I wanted to believe it too. In all honesty, she is alot better. Really, compared to when she first showed up, it's like night and day. But the problem is that after all that hype, she's still... not really that great. She's... passable. Yet NXT and WWE are pushing as if she's suddenly transformed into this amazing wrestler. Even though in all honesty she's not. And the people who thought otherwise are upset, because they fell for the hype, and when it didn't deliver they turned on her. I think Eva Marie will probably get alot better, but right now she's still not there. And this idea that she should be the next face of the women's division when pretty much every other woman on the NXT Roster right now would be a better choice is not helping matters one bit. Eva is fine. She's good enough by Divas standards. She certainly shouldn't be champion, but she does have a place on the Divas roster. Not everyone can be as good as the NXT women. If everyone is awesome, then no one is. Giving someone shitty at their job airtime or hours just so they can make your good workers look good is a horrible and terribly dishonest thing to do.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 28, 2015 15:56:17 GMT -5
Eva is fine. She's good enough by Divas standards. She certainly shouldn't be champion, but she does have a place on the Divas roster. Not everyone can be as good as the NXT women. If everyone is awesome, then no one is. Giving someone shitty at their job airtime or hours just so they can make your good workers look good is a horrible and terribly dishonest thing to do. But Eva isn't "shitty" (anymore), she just isn't as good as the best. And that's why they're the best.
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Post by Speedy Cerviche on Aug 28, 2015 16:00:10 GMT -5
Giving someone shitty at their job airtime or hours just so they can make your good workers look good is a horrible and terribly dishonest thing to do. But Eva isn't "shitty" (anymore), she just isn't as good as the best. And that's why they're the best. That's just nitpicking. It's still a horrible reason to keep someone around. How would you feel if someone told you that one of the main reasons you were hired at your work was because you're mediocre enough to make the good employees look fantastic?
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gr1990
Don Corleone
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Post by gr1990 on Aug 28, 2015 16:02:38 GMT -5
Like Nikki, I'm not sure what response annoys me more, the people pretending she's the single worst thing to happen to wrestling ever, or the people confusing 'improving with time like you're supposed to do, and if you can't do these things by now there's something wrong you' with actually being really good.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 28, 2015 16:04:46 GMT -5
But Eva isn't "shitty" (anymore), she just isn't as good as the best. And that's why they're the best. That's just nitpicking. It's still a horrible reason to keep someone around. How would you feel if someone told you that one of the main reasons you were hired at your work was because you're mediocre enough to make the good employees look fantastic? My feelings would be hurt, but wrestling don't work like that. And in the current era where anyone who whose any good has a vocal following who complains whenever they aren't booked well, "mediocre" wrestlers are a commodity, If Sasha Banks loses a match to Nikki Bella, people will commit mass suicide. If Eva Marie loses a match to Nikki, no harm, no foul.
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