FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,455
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 7, 2015 19:19:29 GMT -5
Find me documentation that trans females are responsible for a similar level of rape/violence to cis men. Or cis women, for that matter. Find me the cases of trans women attacking people in bathrooms. There have been people trying to say it over and over with shared bathrooms/toilets, but they've never been able to come up with a single drop of evidence. And until you do, painting trans women as rapists/violent is transphobia in action. HereHereThere are estimated to be around 700,000 trans people in the US alone. You've given me a survey of 191 trans women, of whom 8 apparently committed some/any form of violent crime (with no mention of rape in any of their tables) over the course of 30 years. Yes, definitive proof there, alright. EDIT: Oh, and I've just noticed you got this from gendertrender, a notorious TERF blog filled with transphobia, known for doxxing trans women. Yep, great source.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
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Post by trollrogue on Sept 7, 2015 19:22:14 GMT -5
I'm not being defensive by calling out condescension, and I am not being emotional; I understand you are not attacking me personally, I am calling it like I see it. I am for equality when differences are not relevant. But you have admitted that it's biological men who are most often the culprits, so women are more likely to be raped by men, right? That's a valid reason for them to need their own space based on biological SEX and not GENDER. Lila is still a biological male, and this is also what I was saying before about how the males are not being held accountable for placing Lila in a dangerous situation. I will also reiterate, I think more should be done to address male rape and abuse victims. It is absolutely unacceptable that men are not taken seriously when they report that they are abused. When women do rape men (like when those teachers have sex with young boys), I think it's disgusting how the response is "oh, I wish my hot teacher had raped me when I was a student" and garbage like that. I've even seen women run roughshod over fathers in child custody cases, I know many men get completely screwed over in those cases, and you're right, it's not fair that biological males don't get taken seriously or get the help/justice they need. Believe me, I have a lot of issues and differences with mainstream feminism myself, and have tended to distance myself from it in a lot of cases. If you have ways to address those issues that men have, I'm right on board with you and will join that team, because boys and men deserve protection and justice too. But the fact remains, since biological males are more inclined to certain types of violence, then it is logical that biological females will want their space separate from biological males, including Lila. This is a SEX issue, not GENDER. I don't see how you've proven that the biological girls are not justified in their feelings, when you've even admitted that they have more to fear from biological males. Sorry wasn't saying your argument was 'emotional' (I hate that word lol) just that in general people will give more preference to women's well-being than males/trans-people because of things other than a logical opinion. You have a point about gender vs sex and depending on whether Lila is attracted to males/females/both its perhaps not the best idea for her to be running around the ladies' locker room with an erect phallus if she's only using the female identification as a way to get unfair treatment. It creates the slippery slope of letting lesbians skate by with a 'free pass' simply because again, no penis. Yet public schools have a duty to accommodate ALL students no matter what confusing gender identities they have, perhaps naming oneself as a transgender person (by choice not by biology) should carry with it a strict understanding that the original sex classification will be default for gym purposes... In other words lol I think I agree with you. I honestly would not worry about Lila being a physical threat to the ladies in the locker room it feels like she will be ostracized and isolated even if allowed to shower in the same locker area as females. From the way her behavior is described I begin to wonder if this is all just her way to create a giant spotlight for herself. Who knows whether its a reaction to the aforementioned isolation by her classmates, or the reason for that isolation...
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Sept 7, 2015 19:24:02 GMT -5
Schools in our modern society need to find some way to put an end to having to ever be involuntarily around naked classmates, period.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 7, 2015 20:37:35 GMT -5
There are estimated to be around 700,000 trans people in the US alone. You've given me a survey of 191 trans women, of whom 8 apparently committed some/any form of violent crime (with no mention of rape in any of their tables) over the course of 30 years. Yes, definitive proof there, alright. EDIT: Oh, and I've just noticed you got this from gendertrender, a notorious TERF blog filled with transphobia, known for doxxing trans women. Yep, great source. This is the first long-term study, and the study itself was not written by gendertrender. It seems that according to your post a few days ago, anyone who refers to biology is a TERF, and from the research I've done in the past few days to try and get a better and honest understanding of your position, anyone who asserts that there is a difference between biologically born women and transwomen are all bigoted TERFs, and the amount of shouting down, threats, insults and shutting down of any rational discussion is just as bigoted, if not more, than you claim a lot of these TERF blogs are. Trans-activists are doxxing feminists, claiming everyone who doesn't agree with them as rad-fems, getting feminist speakers banned from events that don't even necessarily have to do with trans-rights, etc. So I can't really expect that any source I come up with will have any sort of satisfactory points for you to even consider without shouting it down as transphobia. Note that I did read perspectives from some transgender/transsexual individuals and activists who did not engage in this extremism, and I also witnessed a lot of them attacked as, "truscum" I think it was? For being willing to consider how biological females feel about the situation, or being willing to engage in a mutually-beneficial discussion that recognized both parties' issues. I'm sure this is "TERF SCUM" as well, but here is a a look at cases of transgenders and biological males dressed as females victimized biological females. I realize this is a polarizing topic, and I have found that it is hard to find many impartial sources without things devolving into extremism and nastiness on either side. Let me also point out, some of the cases in the PDF I linked were cross-dressers and/or ambiguous in their gender identity, and that I realize cross-dressers are not the same as transgenders, so before you point out that "well just because some people cross dress to get into restrooms doesn't mean that true transgenders do," I would like to point out that we have no way of making sure that someone with no ill intentions would take advantage of being able to get into women's spaces. If we look at this from a broader perspective and assume that ok, Lila is genuine but others in the future may not be, how are we going to make sure that predators are not going to do take advantage? Objectively speaking, how are the other girls supposed to be sure of Lila's sincerity? How are they to tell in the future, which biological men are genuine in their gender identity and not out to hurt them? Even still, biological females are not the same as biologically males, and whether that's "TERF-y" or not, it's true, and biological females deserve their own space, just like transgenders, and biological males. I can understand that both parties have different views, and I can be ok with trying to find common ground, but as I said a few days ago, I don't think there's anything fruitful that you and I can say to each other at this point, so I am done addressing you. Nothing personal, this just seems like it will go in circles.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Sept 7, 2015 20:39:15 GMT -5
This thread will go nowhere good from here but I can't say I'm not kind of stoked to see what happens next.
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malys
AC Slater
Avenging my fallen brethren...
Posts: 169
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Post by malys on Sept 7, 2015 20:53:09 GMT -5
Sorry wasn't saying your argument was 'emotional' (I hate that word lol) just that in general people will give more preference to women's well-being than males/trans-people because of things other than a logical opinion. You have a point about gender vs sex and depending on whether Lila is attracted to males/females/both its perhaps not the best idea for her to be running around the ladies' locker room with an erect phallus if she's only using the female identification as a way to get unfair treatment. It creates the slippery slope of letting lesbians skate by with a 'free pass' simply because again, no penis. Yet public schools have a duty to accommodate ALL students no matter what confusing gender identities they have, perhaps naming oneself as a transgender person (by choice not by biology) should carry with it a strict understanding that the original sex classification will be default for gym purposes... In other words lol I think I agree with you. I honestly would not worry about Lila being a physical threat to the ladies in the locker room it feels like she will be ostracized and isolated even if allowed to shower in the same locker area as females. From the way her behavior is described I begin to wonder if this is all just her way to create a giant spotlight for herself. Who knows whether its a reaction to the aforementioned isolation by her classmates, or the reason for that isolation... I do appreciate your viewpoints and clarification on this, and I agree, there are some slippery slopes and complicated issues here. I do wonder about the behavior myself, but certainly will not conclude that Lila will actually do anything, while understanding why the other girls want their privacy. I do also stand by what I said before about supporting resources and addressing the issues that biological men face as well, for what it's worth. I say that because I'm assuming that you're a male, and would imagine that it sucks just as much to feel that your rights aren't considered, just as it does for any other gender or sex.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 7, 2015 20:57:51 GMT -5
Pubescent girls who bully 'non-pretty'/'non-popular'/etc. girls are the last people on Earth that need a 'defender' IMHO. But I see your point and agree about the SC precedence. We'll agree to disagree about serving civil disobedience to girls who feel like it's their right to walk out of public school to shame a transgender student because it's the "cool" thing to do. We'll have to, because I think projecting those beliefs onto them or claiming that they deserve to be flamed is really the most counterproductive attitude possible, especially since we don't really know any of the people involved outside of what's been presented to the media and what commenters have said about them. At the very worst, I think the kids should be treated at worst as people who don't really know any better due to a lack of life experience.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 7, 2015 22:15:19 GMT -5
What exactly are the girls worried about?
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Sept 7, 2015 22:33:23 GMT -5
What exactly are the girls worried about? Something about us trans people walking in to their showers like When actually we just want to wander in like
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Post by cageking666 on Sept 7, 2015 22:39:53 GMT -5
What exactly are the girls worried about? Something about us trans people walking in to their showers like When actually we just want to wander in like If I had Nas walk up into my shower I wouldn't object
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Post by Display Name on Sept 7, 2015 23:02:03 GMT -5
What exactly are the girls worried about? A swinging dick in a room full of vaginas.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 7, 2015 23:04:15 GMT -5
Do they have male teachers at that school?
If having a penis is the source of their concern, their teachers would be far more likely to be a source of abuse, considering their position of authority.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 7, 2015 23:06:15 GMT -5
Do they have male teachers at that school? If having a penis is the source of their concern, their teachers would be far more likely to be a source of abuse, considering their position of authority. Male teachers don't typically use the women's restroom.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
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Post by trollrogue on Sept 7, 2015 23:07:24 GMT -5
Pubescent girls who bully 'non-pretty'/'non-popular'/etc. girls are the last people on Earth that need a 'defender' IMHO. But I see your point and agree about the SC precedence. We'll agree to disagree about serving civil disobedience to girls who feel like it's their right to walk out of public school to shame a transgender student because it's the "cool" thing to do. We'll have to, because I think projecting those beliefs onto them or claiming that they deserve to be flamed is really the most counterproductive attitude possible, especially since we don't really know any of the people involved outside of what's been presented to the media and what commenters have said about them. At the very worst, I think the kids should be treated at worst as people who don't really know any better due to a lack of life experience. Since I mentioned 'Brown v Board of Education', the last thing I'll say about the matter is that these girls walking out on public school sends a similar message to me as a minority that the fringes of society should conform to the status quo or be forced to face disrespect. Not even knowing the complete story, the fact that people would actually say 'f*** whatever the school board says, if they show compassion to a "different" student on this matter let's just walk out' is exactly what racist white parents told their racist white kids to do when black kids were allowed to attend historically all-white schools. Doesn't set right with me, and the more I think about it the more outraged I am that their parents would allow and even support their kids behaving like that in 2015.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 7, 2015 23:09:53 GMT -5
Do they have male teachers at that school? If having a penis is the source of their concern, their teachers would be far more likely to be a source of abuse, considering their position of authority. Male teachers don't typically use the women's restroom. It's a good thing then that's the only possible place abuse can occur.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 7, 2015 23:22:07 GMT -5
Since I mentioned 'Brown v Board of Education', the last thing I'll say about the matter is that these girls walking out on public school sends a similar message to me as a minority that the fringes of society should conform to the status quo or be forced to face disrespect. Not even knowing the complete story, the fact that people would actually say 'f*** whatever the school board says, if they show compassion to a "different" student on this matter let's just walk out' is exactly what racist white parents told their racist white kids to do when black kids were allowed to attend historically all-white schools. Doesn't set right with me, and the more I think about it the more outraged I am that their parents would allow and even support their kids behaving like that in 2015. My final word is that we don't know any of these girls, we don't know their motivations or who they are. We don't know if any of them faced problems with male students in this past, we don't know what, if any, problems occur in that bathroom, we don't know how Lila acts on a general basis or in that seting. These girls may all have grown up in environments that demonize someone like Lila, they may bully Lila for her looks or who she is, or they may be nice girls who are just nervous about whats going on and need education more than condemnation. Saying that these girls, all children, deserve to be flamed or called names or drafting them into some cause that most of them have probably never even heard of just doesn't sit right with me. The adults in this situation, I get it. I understand being critical of them because we're at a point where they should be able to educate themselves better and be more understanding to Lila. Adults have xperiences with people that most children don't have, and thus should be expected to act more rationally Acting like kids deserve insults for being nervous only makes the issue much more inflammatory and makes people on the other side entrench themselves even further. It's a good thing then that's the only possible place abuse can occur. It just so happens to be the only place that is relevant to this story and thread.
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Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
Posts: 6,315
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Post by Sam Punk on Sept 8, 2015 0:26:26 GMT -5
I think the easiest compromise would be for her to use the coaches office. She'd be in the same room and it would be respectful of those that felt uncomfortable.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 8, 2015 10:37:33 GMT -5
Since I mentioned 'Brown v Board of Education', the last thing I'll say about the matter is that these girls walking out on public school sends a similar message to me as a minority that the fringes of society should conform to the status quo or be forced to face disrespect. Not even knowing the complete story, the fact that people would actually say 'f*** whatever the school board says, if they show compassion to a "different" student on this matter let's just walk out' is exactly what racist white parents told their racist white kids to do when black kids were allowed to attend historically all-white schools. Doesn't set right with me, and the more I think about it the more outraged I am that their parents would allow and even support their kids behaving like that in 2015. My final word is that we don't know any of these girls, we don't know their motivations or who they are. We don't know if any of them faced problems with male students in this past, we don't know what, if any, problems occur in that bathroom, we don't know how Lila acts on a general basis or in that seting. These girls may all have grown up in environments that demonize someone like Lila, they may bully Lila for her looks or who she is, or they may be nice girls who are just nervous about whats going on and need education more than condemnation. Saying that these girls, all children, deserve to be flamed or called names or drafting them into some cause that most of them have probably never even heard of just doesn't sit right with me. The adults in this situation, I get it. I understand being critical of them because we're at a point where they should be able to educate themselves better and be more understanding to Lila. Adults have xperiences with people that most children don't have, and thus should be expected to act more rationally Acting like kids deserve insults for being nervous only makes the issue much more inflammatory and makes people on the other side entrench themselves even further. It's a good thing then that's the only possible place abuse can occur. It just so happens to be the only place that is relevant to this story and thread. It really isn't, because issues relating to the exaggeration of the supposed threat are also relevant, and by comparison the marginalisation of other more likely threats.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Sept 8, 2015 11:41:55 GMT -5
I think the easiest compromise would be for her to use the coaches office. She'd be in the same room and it would be respectful of those that felt uncomfortable. They already recommended something like that. She said no.
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Post by Iconic on Sept 8, 2015 11:57:20 GMT -5
the whole "i respect their decision but..." thing is honestly such a BS thing to say. it's just another way to say "i don't understand what you identify as and i refuse to even attempt to understand you"
secondly, it's honestly amazing that a penis can scare people. also, does it mention if she's straight or queer? this changes things immensely also, but i guess if you're a close minded prick you automatically just close your mind and come to your own ignorant conclusions. i know it's idealistic (and also extremely impossible) but it would just be nice to live in a world where this wasn't a big deal. to me it isn't but apparently it still is? this saddens me.... idk... i guess i can't put my feelings into words.
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