Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
|
Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 6, 2015 3:39:30 GMT -5
I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. edit: as neither the top face nor the guy drawing the fans, Triple H is an entirely different matter Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad.
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 6, 2015 3:48:51 GMT -5
I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. edit: as neither the top face nor the guy drawing the fans, Triple H is an entirely different matter Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad. Owens went over in the first match. Cena might have won the other matches, but the reality is that even if Owens pinned Cena cleanly and won the U.S. title, Cena's subsequent non-title feud would be treated as a priority over Owens and he would still be "just another dude". It's not Cena's fault that Creative can't maintain anyone's momentum. It's on the creative team to continue presenting talents as "top" guys post-Cena. It's not his fault that Owens kept getting booked in matches he had to lose after feuding with him. The Cena feud didn't hurt Owens so much as calling him up while he was still NXT Champion did. Because he got called up, it meant he had to drop the belt asap, and because WWE had no faith in the rest of the NXT roster to step up in his stead, they felt they had to play the rematch clause card instead of letting Owens move on.
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Sept 6, 2015 3:52:30 GMT -5
I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. edit: as neither the top face nor the guy drawing the fans, Triple H is an entirely different matter Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad. Why shouldn't he protect his spot? It's not his job to make the careers of other guys. It's Creative's job and Vince's job.
|
|
|
Post by audiencewatching on Sept 6, 2015 3:55:44 GMT -5
WWE fighting tooth and nail against putting Daniel Bryan in the spot the fans wanted him in. He was way more over at wmxxx than summerslam My answer is Ryback. Crowds were shsking arenas with feed me more chants. They wanted him to beat punk. Then he loses or gets screwed by punk. Then loses to mark henry. Then cena and punk make him look like the biggest jabroni. Then he quits a match against miz. Imagine if they just went all in on ryback where he would be now That was a tough one for me. I wanted Punks reign to go long but at the same time it completely built up and then destroyed Ryback having him not win the title. Its a real shame because I'm pretty sure he'd be a solid main eventer now if they'd have given him the title then.
|
|
Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,312
|
Post by Woo on Sept 6, 2015 7:23:42 GMT -5
Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad. Why shouldn't he protect his spot? It's not his job to make the careers of other guys. It's Creative's job and Vince's job. Seeing as how Kurt Angle made John Cena a star, once by having a great match with him in his debut, twice by having an even better match with him at No Mercy 2003 which was the start of his face turn, and three times by feuding with him when he won the title, I think yes it is John Cena's job to make the careers of other guys. It is odd how defeat to Kurt Angle can make you a star, whereas defeat to Cena or HHH can ruin your career.
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Sept 6, 2015 7:26:53 GMT -5
Why shouldn't he protect his spot? It's not his job to make the careers of other guys. It's Creative's job and Vince's job. Seeing as how Kurt Angle made John Cena a star, once by having a great match with him in his debut, twice by having an even better match with him at No Mercy 2003 which was the start of his face turn, and three times by feuding with him when he won the title, I think yes it is John Cena's job to make the careers of other guys. It is odd how defeat to Kurt Angle can make you a star, whereas defeat to Cena or HHH can ruin your career. Kurt wasn't the top face, the top star, well known outside wrestling, a hero to children and the guy selling the tickets and merchandise. That example doesn't work because they're in two different roles.
|
|
chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 85,273
|
Post by chrom on Sept 6, 2015 8:04:24 GMT -5
I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. edit: as neither the top face nor the guy drawing the fans, Triple H is an entirely different matter Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad. If a guy feuded with Hogan, his stock would triple and always be viewed as someone who could beat anyone and a threat at anytime as they were top guys afterwards. Savage, Dibiase, and others were boosted via feuding with him. Macho was helped tremendously when Hogan put him over in their first match. In contrast to Cena, after you feud with you're little more than a jobber and your stock is lower than Smackdown and TNA's ratings.
|
|
Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
|
Post by Professor Chaos on Sept 6, 2015 8:17:44 GMT -5
If these guys are better than Cena then why don't they just beat him? Ya don't see Ronda Rousey or Floyd Mayweather getting heat for not putting people over.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Sept 6, 2015 8:39:02 GMT -5
If Vince wanted guys to go over, they would. He's the one with the problem. Not Cena.
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Sept 6, 2015 13:05:02 GMT -5
Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad. If a guy feuded with Hogan, his stock would triple and always be viewed as someone who could beat anyone and a threat at anytime as they were top guys afterwards. Savage, Dibiase, and others were boosted via feuding with him. Macho was helped tremendously when Hogan put him over in their first match. In contrast to Cena, after you feud with you're little more than a jobber and your stock is lower than Smackdown and TNA's ratings. . Savage never pinned Hogan in the WWF. I will say something unpopular about Hogan's heyday run: guys may have made lots of money main evening with Hulk, but I can name guys that were just as "ruined" after Hulk as guys like Owens, Cesaro, etc. Did Paul Orndorff "matter" post-Hogan?
|
|
markymark
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,576
|
Post by markymark on Sept 6, 2015 13:12:52 GMT -5
I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. edit: as neither the top face nor the guy drawing the fans, Triple H is an entirely different matter Like it or not, Cena has elevated a lot of guys despite beating them....
|
|
|
Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 6, 2015 13:33:39 GMT -5
Did Paul Orndorff "matter" post-Hogan? Depends which time. First time? Yes. Second time, not so much. But... Piper mattered after his run with Hogan. So did Sheik for a good while. And Beefcake (yes, he feuded with Hogan in 85/86 before the face turn). DiBiase. Savage. Perfect. Undertaker. Gang. Bossman. All of those guys continued to keep fairly top spots for a good time after their encounters with Hogan. Even Hercules had his strongest pushes after his Hogan feud. Sure, there were guys like Orndorff, Slaughter and Bundy, who just sank afterward, but overall, when someone was done feuding with Hogan during those years, they weren't tossed to the side but rather kept very strong and high on the card. I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. A lot of it goes back to the Nexus fiasco, which *was* Cena's doing. He pushed hard for that, even with Edge and Jericho trying to tell him it was a bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 6, 2015 13:50:20 GMT -5
Did Paul Orndorff "matter" post-Hogan? Depends which time. First time? Yes. Second time, not so much. But... Piper mattered after his run with Hogan. So did Sheik for a good while. And Beefcake (yes, he feuded with Hogan in 85/86 before the face turn). DiBiase. Savage. Perfect. Undertaker. Gang. Bossman. All of those guys continued to keep fairly top spots for a good time after their encounters with Hogan. Even Hercules had his strongest pushes after his Hogan feud. Sure, there were guys like Orndorff, Slaughter and Bundy, who just sank afterward, but overall, when someone was done feuding with Hogan during those years, they weren't tossed to the side but rather kept very strong and high on the card. I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. A lot of it goes back to the Nexus fiasco, which *was* Cena's doing. He pushed hard for that, even with Edge and Jericho trying to tell him it was a bad idea. But it's not Cena's fault that Barrett dropped to perennial midcarddom. And for the most part, WWE does try to keep guys in fairly high spots after Cena. Barrett, for the most part, is constantly featured and only really dropped down because of newer talents surpassing him. Most of the guys featured on RAW week in and week out are guys who were in the main event at one point; ever since the brand split ended there have been more "main eventers" than midcarders on TV.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 6, 2015 14:06:44 GMT -5
Cena absolutely needs his share of the blame. He could have said "Owens is going over", and they'd have listened because he's John Cena. He marches along with the shitty booking because he goes over and protects his spot. He's one of the shittiest top guys ever in that regard. Hogan wasn't even this bad. Why shouldn't he protect his spot? It's not his job to make the careers of other guys. It's Creative's job and Vince's job. I think people have an illusion of because you are "made" you should step away from your spot after you been on top for a while. Hell no. You don't have to be Hogan levels of politic bad but if i'm John i'm not taking the shirt off my back to "some guy" and say here take my spot. If i'm John they have to take it away from me. However, can Johns word sway Vince and co. decision sometimes, sure why not. He's not the booker though and ultimately it is the big man in charge who has to make these guys look better once they finish a feud with Cena.
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Sept 6, 2015 14:39:25 GMT -5
Did Paul Orndorff "matter" post-Hogan? Depends which time. First time? Yes. Second time, not so much. But... Piper mattered after his run with Hogan. So did Sheik for a good while. And Beefcake (yes, he feuded with Hogan in 85/86 before the face turn). DiBiase. Savage. Perfect. Undertaker. Gang. Bossman. All of those guys continued to keep fairly top spots for a good time after their encounters with Hogan. Even Hercules had his strongest pushes after his Hogan feud. Sure, there were guys like Orndorff, Slaughter and Bundy, who just sank afterward, but overall, when someone was done feuding with Hogan during those years, they weren't tossed to the side but rather kept very strong and high on the card. I think it's very harsh to put the blame on Cena for a lot of this, despite the fact his name keeps coming up. I think as top face, Cena winning is usually the right business move. Cena isn't responsible for how WWE books and treats these guys before and after their match. A lot of it goes back to the Nexus fiasco, which *was* Cena's doing. He pushed hard for that, even with Edge and Jericho trying to tell him it was a bad idea. Piper continued to matter post-Hogan because Roddy never lost cleanly to Hogan. I heard Matt Farmer hypothesize in the MLW Roddy tribute show that a reason (in addition to taking movie roles), Piper retired after Wrestlemania 3 was that he may have thought that he would never have a true run at the top of the card as a babyface. If he was to stay face, he would always be playing second fiddle to Hogan and, eventually third wheel to Macho Man and God knows what once you put Warrior in that mix too. Whether it would have turned out that way, Piper post-Adrian Adonis may have been in 2013 CM Punk territory. DiBiase went to the mid-card post-Hogan. Everyone you named did with the exception of Taker and that's because Hogan, in a PPV, never beat Taker cleanly.
|
|
|
Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Sept 6, 2015 15:48:02 GMT -5
Cesaro after winning the battle royal at WrestleMania and Ziggler after winning Survivor Series last year are the two biggest ones for me. Star making performances that should've made both of them made men however for whatever reason they refused to do anything afterwards. I've never understood why they'll give guys huge wins and seem to be setting them up for big things, and then just proceed to pull the rug out from under them. It's frustrating for fans and just ends up being a waste of time. If you're not going to do anything with the guy then why even push him to begin with?
Barrett and Ryback ones I see are mentioned all the time but those are ones I can see why they didn't pull the trigger. Everyone talks about how the Nexus angle had such untapped potential and how it was such a great angle which it really was. The problem was all the guys in it were green and terrible in the ring at that time (Barrett included even though he was actually one of the better ones which shows how limited they all were). They were great doing beatdowns but when they actually had to work matches forget it. If they were better workers then yeah it should've lasted a lot longer but they were all too green at that time for it to be long term. It should've been a short term angle for the summer and should've ended after Cena beat them at Summerslam with the stip being that they had to disband and leave if they lost as that match really needed more consequences to it (the stip the other way could've been Nexus getting control of Raw if they won). Barrett could've stuck around as a singles since he had immunity from winning NXT. He was the only one ready for a main roster spot anyways as his mic and character work were excellent despite him being pretty average in the ring at that point. The others could've come back in their different gimmicks when they were ready. I think the biggest missed opportunity with Barrett was during his "Barrett Barrage" push on Smackdown in late 2011 when he was feuding with Orton as it seemed like they were behind him again and he had become a much more well rounded performer as his in ring work had improved a great deal by that point. Unfortunately an injury derailed that push. Whether it be injuries or bad booking the poor guy just has never been able to catch a break.
Ryback was just a victim of bad luck. In the fall of 2012 he was on the right track as he had the undefeated streak and was on his way to beating Miz for the IC title. However Cena got hurt going into Hell in a Cell leaving Punk without an opponent. Since Ryback was the only face with any steam on him at the time, he ended up getting thrown into the fire. Ryback didn't fit into their title plans since they needed Punk to lose the belt to Rock so then Rock could lose to Cena at Mania, so he ended up losing albeit in shady fashion and had his momentum derailed. They couldn't even do a DQ finish to protect him since it was a hell in a cell match. Then he got involved in that weird feud with the Shield and the losses piled up from there as Shield was a new act they had big plans for, so Ryback wasn't ever going to beat them either. Then the final nail in the coffin was the Mark Henry loss which made no sense at all. I wasn't even a fan of Ryback at the time and even I thought that was dumb, even more so when he was put into the title program with Cena the next night.
|
|
riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
|
Post by riseofsetian1981 on Sept 6, 2015 15:57:05 GMT -5
I can honestly say for me it was Jericho during his feud with Hunter(Jericho was hot white in that phase. He just began a face turn, was having great matches, and the pop he received when he pinned Hunter for the title was insane. They should've ran with him immediately after that.)
Along with Rob Van Dam not winning or being pushed as a main eventer during the Invasion angle, same with Daniel Bryan, Nexus, Ziggler winning Survivor Series, and Summer of Punk.
Yes, Cena does deserve a lot of the blame. He has more than enough clout to say "Okay, your idea sucks and this guy is going over. I don't need to win this match or this feud."
Why is it Rock(top face), Foley(another top face at one point), Jericho, and Angle have/had no issues putting anyone over. Yet Cena can't open his mouth and say "Vince, I am putting this guy over in the match and the feud." Vince would definitely listen to him. Cena is just as much to blame as Vince and creative when it comes to his feuds and booking.
|
|
|
Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Sept 6, 2015 16:12:00 GMT -5
Or when there was this whole internet hooplah after he had been fired cause of the whole Lita with Edge situation. The second time he was red hot when he came out of the crowd and even confronted Vince. Crowd was behind him. He was mega over. But it's as if they only brought him back to job to Edge. Matt's the one to blame for that. That promo he gave just absolutely tanked his shot. And then a few months later, he refused to take a chokeslam from Taker. Matt not becoming a bigger singles star in WWE is the fault of Matt Hardy.
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 6, 2015 16:27:45 GMT -5
Or when there was this whole internet hooplah after he had been fired cause of the whole Lita with Edge situation. The second time he was red hot when he came out of the crowd and even confronted Vince. Crowd was behind him. He was mega over. But it's as if they only brought him back to job to Edge. Matt's the one to blame for that. That promo he gave just absolutely tanked his shot. And then a few months later, he refused to take a chokeslam from Taker. Matt not becoming a bigger singles star in WWE is the fault of Matt Hardy. V Why was Matt Hardy booked to take a choke slam from Taker in the first place as if he were some random goober. That's what guys like Sylvan Grenier or Scotty 2 Hotty are for, not Matt Hardy. Can't blame Matt for wanting to protect his character.
|
|
|
Post by tekkenguy on Sept 6, 2015 17:06:17 GMT -5
Bryan - Doing everything in ther power to bury him and keep him from the title. Ryback - Sticking him in the HIAC match and cutting his legs then turning him heel for no reason other than to feed him to Cena. Barrett/Wyatt/Rusev - Red hot heel gets fed to Cena and completely buried afterwards. Ziggler - Horrible WHC booking, and when they turn him face they send him back to the midcard Miz - Give him the title, only to have him weasel his way past Orton, feud with a retired commentator, and have him play 3rd wheel to Cena/Rock feud Del Rio - Inject him into Summer of Punk angle and book him horribly as a champ. Booked aimlessly afterwards Kofi - Stuck in Midcard hell after Orton fiasco R-Truth - Red hot heel, then gets turned back face for no reason and buried. Cesaro - Give him Heyman rub and quickly forget about him. Curtis Axel - Give him Heyman and IC title then quickly bury him. Sandow - Wins MITB, fed to one-armed Cena, falls down the card John Morrison - Gets big face push and is quickly demoted to playing second fiddle to Snooki. Fandango - Big win over Jericho and viral theme, but WWE keeps him in midcard hell. Big E - Muscle for Ziggler, big face push, buried alive Jack Swagger - 2010 WHC run and 2013 Real American run both fizzle out. Tensai - Gets monster heel push for 2 months and is quickly forgotten about. Brodus Clay - Hyped up to the max, gets big face push for 2 months and is quickly forgotten about. Ted Jr. - Gets Virgil and Maryse, big heel push then buried immediately. Drew McIntyre - Chosen one gimmick, Loses IC title and buried alive. Evan Bourne - Big victory over Jericho goes nowhere. Christian - Finally wins WHC, gets it taken away, and booked as cowardly heel against Orton. Zack Ryder - Ryder Revolution, wins US title then gets fed to Kane. Kevin Owens - Big win over Cena then gets buried. Sin Cara/Kharma - Everything went wrong here. Paige - Big title win then typical diva crap booking.
|
|