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Post by Cyno on Feb 28, 2019 16:10:37 GMT -5
Your inability to suspend disbelief because of VFX advancements since the 1960's doesn't make Discovery any less a part of the Prime Universe. I'd say the only thing that really needs to be addressed is that Spore Drive stuff.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 28, 2019 16:18:38 GMT -5
Your inability to suspend disbelief because of VFX advancements since the 1960's doesn't make Discovery any less a part of the Prime Universe. I'd say the only thing that really needs to be addressed is that Spore Drive stuff. It's not about suspension of disbelief. There's no reason why a prequel series couldn't be aesthetically in line with TOS with improved SFX, since TOS Remastered and DS9's Tribble episode managed to do it virtually seamlessly.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 28, 2019 18:12:42 GMT -5
Your inability to suspend disbelief because of VFX advancements since the 1960's doesn't make Discovery any less a part of the Prime Universe. I'd say the only thing that really needs to be addressed is that Spore Drive stuff. It's not about suspension of disbelief. There's no reason why a prequel series couldn't be aesthetically in line with TOS with improved SFX, since TOS Remastered and DS9's Tribble episode managed to do it virtually seamlessly. "Virtually seamlessly" still has the negative effect of looking like a cheap 1960s TV show. TOS is very of its time and has aged terribly, so it makes more sense to take the bits that work, jettison what doesn't, and blend old and new as best you can. I'm sure by the end of the run of the show it'll bear closer resemblance to TOS without looking as poor as TOS.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 28, 2019 19:45:39 GMT -5
It's not about suspension of disbelief. There's no reason why a prequel series couldn't be aesthetically in line with TOS with improved SFX, since TOS Remastered and DS9's Tribble episode managed to do it virtually seamlessly. "Virtually seamlessly" still has the negative effect of looking like a cheap 1960s TV show. TOS is very of its time and has aged terribly, so it makes more sense to take the bits that work, jettison what doesn't, and blend old and new as best you can. I'm sure by the end of the run of the show it'll bear closer resemblance to TOS without looking as poor as TOS. The original aesthetic hasn't aged terribly. As I said, it looks fine in TOS Remastered. Furthermore, it still holds up even inside the Trek universe itself. Aside from DS9 another example would be TNG's episode "Relics" where the bridge of the original Enterprise is recreated on the holodeck, and when Picard sees it he treats it with respect, and the character is written to simply accept that this is how Starfleet vessels looked in the mid 23rd century. A further example is the Enterprise episode "In A Mirror Darkly" where the TOS USS Defiant is featured. Both the space scenes and the scenes set aboard the vessel look fine, and could easily have been adapted for an entire series with retro production design, with no credibility issues.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 28, 2019 20:27:16 GMT -5
"Virtually seamlessly" still has the negative effect of looking like a cheap 1960s TV show. TOS is very of its time and has aged terribly, so it makes more sense to take the bits that work, jettison what doesn't, and blend old and new as best you can. I'm sure by the end of the run of the show it'll bear closer resemblance to TOS without looking as poor as TOS. The original aesthetic hasn't aged terribly. As I said, it looks fine in TOS Remastered. Furthermore, it still holds up even inside the Trek universe itself. Aside from DS9 another example would be TNG's episode "Relics" where the bridge of the original Enterprise is recreated on the holodeck, and when Picard sees it he treats it with respect, and the character is written to simply accept that this is how Starfleet vessels looked in the mid 23rd century. A further example is the Enterprise episode "In A Mirror Darkly" where the TOS USS Defiant is featured. Both the space scenes and the scenes set aboard the vessel look fine, and could easily have been adapted for an entire series with retro production design, with no credibility issues. Enterprise and DS9 also had lines about how absurd the whole aesthetic looked. It's fine for light-hearted callbacks or nostalgia trips, but setting a tense, dramatic series in something that looks like the inside of the Yellow Submarine would be self-defeating.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 28, 2019 23:46:21 GMT -5
The original aesthetic hasn't aged terribly. As I said, it looks fine in TOS Remastered. Furthermore, it still holds up even inside the Trek universe itself. Aside from DS9 another example would be TNG's episode "Relics" where the bridge of the original Enterprise is recreated on the holodeck, and when Picard sees it he treats it with respect, and the character is written to simply accept that this is how Starfleet vessels looked in the mid 23rd century. A further example is the Enterprise episode "In A Mirror Darkly" where the TOS USS Defiant is featured. Both the space scenes and the scenes set aboard the vessel look fine, and could easily have been adapted for an entire series with retro production design, with no credibility issues. Enterprise and DS9 also had lines about how absurd the whole aesthetic looked. It's fine for light-hearted callbacks or nostalgia trips, but setting a tense, dramatic series in something that looks like the inside of the Yellow Submarine would be self-defeating. DS9's aesthetic based lines were primarily about how cramped the TOS Enterprise was, how short the dresses were, and how they didn't know how to use the turbolifts. Dax mentioned how much she loved the classic style of tricorder she was using despite its clunky design. In A Mirror Darkly wasn't played for laughs and it worked fine as one of Enterprise's better episodes, and TOS itself certainly didn't lack any dramatic tension.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Mar 1, 2019 0:03:46 GMT -5
I doubt change is the issue. DS9 was highly innovative and did things that the franchise had never done before or since and that was twenty years ago. The major bone of contention that I've observed from genuine critics of Discovery is the canon issue. A Star Trek series with no ship? Extended storylines? An actual War? Starfleet has had a shadowy black ups division the whole time? RELIGION? Not that I can blame them, but DS9 went the safe route with tackling religion, treating it more like a spirituality. Now that I think about it, DS9 had a lot of potential to explore the interplay between science, faith, and politics through Bajor and the wormhole aliens / Prophets. They oh so barely touched on it here and there, most significantly in the season 1 finale, but not to any deep degree. Again, I don't blame them, just noting what really could have been. Really, TNG's episode Who Watches The Watchers, when Leland Palmer shot Picard with an arrow, might have been the last best time Trek explored religion. I also can't pass up an opportunity to post this DS9 clip, m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBrqWVEa7a4
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 1, 2019 0:28:35 GMT -5
Enterprise and DS9 also had lines about how absurd the whole aesthetic looked. It's fine for light-hearted callbacks or nostalgia trips, but setting a tense, dramatic series in something that looks like the inside of the Yellow Submarine would be self-defeating. DS9's aesthetic based lines were primarily about how cramped the TOS Enterprise was, how short the dresses were, and how they didn't know how to use the turbolifts. Dax mentioned how much she loved the classic style of tricorder she was using despite its clunky design. In A Mirror Darkly wasn't played for laughs and it worked fine as one of Enterprise's better episodes, and TOS itself certainly didn't lack any dramatic tension. TOS never explored anything like Discovery's first season, though. Having rewatched TOS last year, I think most of what passed for dramatic tension on TV in the '60s is almost comical today. TOS, for me, is the weakest of all the Treks, held together by the genius of Leonard Nimoy. There's a reason why the movies totally jettisoned the aesthetic of TOS for something that isn't too far removed from every Trek since. TOS' look worked fine for its time, but it's time was 50+ years ago.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 1, 2019 1:18:57 GMT -5
In A Mirror Darkly also made fun of the aesthetic of the TOS uniforms, in particular the green Captain's tunic Mirror Archer put on after they captured the prime universe Defiant NCC-1764. The dramatic tension in that series was mostly contained in the Imperial NX vessels as they didn't even make it to the Defiant until the end of Part 1.
But I agree that shit looks corny now. It works for nostalgia trips like in Relics, Trials and Tribble-ations, and In A Mirror Darkly, but I don't think it'd work for a full series. The Kelvin timeline tried to make it work while modernizing it some, but it had to turn the aesthetic's busyness up to eleven to not make it look dated as all hell. Hell, the interfaces we have on our own smartphones, tablets, and computers blows away anything designed for TOS's technology in looking more futuristic. TOS Remastered looks fine for what it is: a remastered version with decent CGI for Enterprise exterior shots that last a few seconds. But it's still very much a show that looks like it was made in the 60's, but at a better resolution with better coloring. You can't do an entire new show like that these days or you'd get laughed into cancellation.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 1, 2019 1:41:20 GMT -5
You can't do an entire new show like that these days or you'd get laughed into cancellation. Exactly. CBS can't rely on old Trek fans to build their online service, just as Paramount couldn't just rely on fans of the TV show to go see the TOS movies. I grew up on Trek and I find the TOS aesthetic incredibly hard to overlook, and is a huge part of why I don't feel it has aged well at all. Even elements of the early TNG seasons look dated. Satisfying the purists at the expense of building a new audience just isn't good sense.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,008
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 1, 2019 1:50:45 GMT -5
A Star Trek series with no ship? Extended storylines? An actual War? Starfleet has had a shadowy black ups division the whole time? RELIGION? Not that I can blame them, but DS9 went the safe route with tackling religion, treating it more like a spirituality. Now that I think about it, DS9 had a lot of potential to explore the interplay between science, faith, and politics through Bajor and the wormhole aliens / Prophets. They oh so barely touched on it here and there, most significantly in the season 1 finale, but not to any deep degree. Again, I don't blame them, just noting what really could have been. Really, TNG's episode Who Watches The Watchers, when Leland Palmer shot Picard with an arrow, might have been the last best time Trek explored religion. I also can't pass up an opportunity to post this DS9 clip, m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBrqWVEa7a4Oh totally, just bringing it up in terms of the mere mention of the concept leaving fans outraged. They ended up moving focus because the episodes about that stuff were the least popular. Which sucks because to me that is super interesting, another issue that would have been better explored if they did it now and could be properly serialised, dealing with a culture's actual Gods that actually exist.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 1, 2019 2:07:18 GMT -5
Not that I can blame them, but DS9 went the safe route with tackling religion, treating it more like a spirituality. Now that I think about it, DS9 had a lot of potential to explore the interplay between science, faith, and politics through Bajor and the wormhole aliens / Prophets. They oh so barely touched on it here and there, most significantly in the season 1 finale, but not to any deep degree. Again, I don't blame them, just noting what really could have been. Really, TNG's episode Who Watches The Watchers, when Leland Palmer shot Picard with an arrow, might have been the last best time Trek explored religion. I also can't pass up an opportunity to post this DS9 clip, m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBrqWVEa7a4Oh totally, just bringing it up in terms of the mere mention of the concept leaving fans outraged. They ended up moving focus because the episodes about that stuff were the least popular. Which sucks because to me that is super interesting, another issue that would have been better explored if they did it now and could be properly serialised, dealing with a culture's actual Gods that actually exist. Didn't help either that the early episodes dealing with Bajoran religion were pretty terrible. And a bit too on the nose about its extremists' parallels to the "Moral Majority" fundamentalist groups. Though I always liked Louise Fletcher's performance as Winn Adami. Fletcher just knows how to make her villainous performances both believable and fleshed out as characters while also being really unlikable.
Though I liked the way Sisko and the Prophets interacted later on, especially as he began to accept his role more as the Emissary. "Rapture" was one of the better episodes dealing with that and with the Bajoran religion because it put Sisko's role as the Emissary in complete conflict with his role as a Starfleet officer. Especially as it concerned one of his primary missions during his tenure there: getting Bajor to join the Federation.
And as it turned out, the visions he got were 100% right. It was clever foreshadowing to Dukat selling out Cardassia to the Dominion and his torpedoing Bajor's admission to the Federation is what allowed the planet to sign a non-aggression pact with the Dominion instead of being outright conquered. Or worse.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,008
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 1, 2019 3:28:28 GMT -5
Oh totally, just bringing it up in terms of the mere mention of the concept leaving fans outraged. They ended up moving focus because the episodes about that stuff were the least popular. Which sucks because to me that is super interesting, another issue that would have been better explored if they did it now and could be properly serialised, dealing with a culture's actual Gods that actually exist. Didn't help either that the early episodes dealing with Bajoran religion were pretty terrible. And a bit too on the nose about its extremists' parallels to the "Moral Majority" fundamentalist groups. Though I always liked Louise Fletcher's performance as Winn Adami. Fletcher just knows how to make her villainous performances both believable and fleshed out as characters while also being really unlikable.
Though I liked the way Sisko and the Prophets interacted later on, especially as he began to accept his role more as the Emissary. "Rapture" was one of the better episodes dealing with that and with the Bajoran religion because it put Sisko's role as the Emissary in complete conflict with his role as a Starfleet officer. Especially as it concerned one of his primary missions during his tenure there: getting Bajor to join the Federation. And as it turned out, the visions he got were 100% right. It was clever foreshadowing to Dukat selling out Cardassia to the Dominion and his torpedoing Bajor's admission to the Federation is what allowed the planet to sign a non-aggression pact with the Dominion instead of being outright conquered. Or worse.
It's like a lot of things, as they went on they got better at it. Though I liked the more enigmatic, timeless, neutral Prophets rather than the standard good v evil spirits they turned into near the end, the latter is way easier to write for I'd imagine. I'd put Winn as my number 2 villain in all of Trek after Dukat, almost every appearance added more to her. From fundamentalist, to total opportunist, to having crises of faith because her Gods never spoke to her despite all her work but chose a random alien to be their Emissary, accepting Sisko then rejecting him again, mentioning her past under the occupation. It would have been so easy to have made her a collaborator, but she genuinely kept her faith and suffered for it.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jul 22, 2019 20:38:36 GMT -5
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Mainia
Trap-Jaw
Cowabunga!
Posts: 466
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Post by Mainia on Jul 23, 2019 18:02:12 GMT -5
"we get to honor canon" Lol đ
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Post by Hurbster on Jul 23, 2019 18:12:51 GMT -5
Wasn't really a fan of Discovery.
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Post by Muskrat on Jul 23, 2019 18:34:37 GMT -5
Wasn't really a fan of Discovery. Wasnât huge on Season 1, but I really enjoyed Season 2. Anson Mount was fantastic as Pike.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jul 23, 2019 18:55:06 GMT -5
Wasn't really a fan of Discovery. Wasnât huge on Season 1, but I really enjoyed Season 2. Anson Mount was fantastic as Pike. Absolutely. Mount was one of the few good things about that terrible Inhumans show, and really hit a home run as Pike.
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Post by eJm on Jul 24, 2019 9:12:30 GMT -5
Wasn't really a fan of Discovery. Wasnât huge on Season 1, but I really enjoyed Season 2. Anson Mount was fantastic as Pike. I liked Season One because I liked how it felt different from a typical Star Trek show but REALLY enjoyed Season Two for being exactly like a Star Trek show. And yeah, count me in the Anson Mount fanclub. Dude killed it as Pike and if there's more Pike episodes (and there's a couple of Short Treks coming up with that crew) I'm down for watching them.
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Post by Muskrat on Jul 24, 2019 9:53:54 GMT -5
Wasnât huge on Season 1, but I really enjoyed Season 2. Anson Mount was fantastic as Pike. I liked Season One because I liked how it felt different from a typical Star Trek show but REALLY enjoyed Season Two for being exactly like a Star Trek show. And yeah, count me in the Anson Mount fanclub. Dude killed it as Pike and if there's more Pike episodes (and there's a couple of Short Treks coming up with that crew) I'm down for watching them. Yeah, and after the Kelvinverse movies (2 of which I love, one not so much) I was kinda looking for something that felt a little more TNG. It had a lot of good, but also tried too hard to say âWe ainât your dadâs Star Trek!!!!â For my liking. Season 2 corrected most of that. And I would absolutely love to see a series or mini series focusing on Cage and the Enterprise. Absolutely fantastic
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