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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 15, 2015 20:59:23 GMT -5
So what four man group would you rather have the shit beaten out of them by the Wyatts? That people will actually react to and all that. I'd use the Wyatts to elevate some guys and make them "look good in defeat" against them. These gimmick matches would've gone a long way in helping get people over. I don't think it's right that WWE is so stuck in the past that people aren't even allowed to be the present. If you put the crack team against Curtis Axel, Los Matadores, and Zack Ryder into a tables match against the Wyatts, it would a) have none of the appeal inherent in the Wyatts facing off against stars of yesteryear, b) lack the whole selling point of guys whose gimmick is tables having a tables match, c) give the Wyatts a win over a handful of Superstars geeks that would accomplish next to nothing. The Wyatts needed a big win, and the ECW guys gave them that, because they re still recognizable stars. They came in and used that recognition to put over guys who are going to stick around two nights in a row in increasingly hotter matches that the crowd was super into. Which is exactly how you use veterans; on TV for a few weeks, lit up a feud, and then went out on their backs. I don't see the problem. Yes, the roster is thin, but it takes time and effort to build guys back up. WWE should have more people credible enough to go, but the fact is, they don't, and they need to build credibility. Given the right match outcomes, which we got, the Wyatts have a credibility boost they sorely needed, which is for the overall good of the show. I could have done without the ECW circlejerking, but it did its job perfectly, and the alternative you wish happened wouldn't have drawn any attention to it at all.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 15, 2015 21:05:20 GMT -5
I'd use the Wyatts to elevate some guys and make them "look good in defeat" against them. These gimmick matches would've gone a long way in helping get people over. I don't think it's right that WWE is so stuck in the past that people aren't even allowed to be the present. If you put the crack team against Curtis Axel, Los Matadores, and Zack Ryder into a tables match against the Wyatts, it would a) have none of the appeal inherent in the Wyatts facing off against stars of yesteryear, b) lack the whole selling point of guys whose gimmick is tables having a tables match, c) give the Wyatts a win over a handful of Superstars geeks that would accomplish next to nothing. The Wyatts needed a big win, and the ECW guys gave them that, because they re still recognizable stars. They came in and used that recognition to put over guys who are going to stick around two nights in a row in increasingly hotter matches that the crowd was super into. Which is exactly how you use veterans; on TV for a few weeks, lit up a feud, and then went out on their backs. I don't see the problem. Yes, the roster is thin, but it takes time and effort to build guys back up. WWE should have more people credible enough to go, but the fact is, they don't, and they need to build credibility. Given the right match outcomes, which we got, the Wyatts have a credibility boost they sorely needed, which is for the overall good of the show. I could have done without the ECW circlejerking, but it did its job perfectly, and the alternative you wish happened wouldn't have drawn any attention to it at all. They need to start somewhere. And "it takes time and effort to build guys up" is just going to be an excuse to keep putting it off or not do it at all. The only way that those wrestlers can have their credibility built up is to interact with people higher on the totem pole and be booked competitively against them. WWE has a roster of guys waiting to step up and they're never going to get to if WWE keeps going for the easy nostalgia route? Why is that so difficult to comprehend? And the Wyatts really DON'T need a that big of a win, because they're always going to be used as the Deus Ex Machina to keep random top faces busy. Bray Wyatt could lose in 30 seconds to *insert random NXT jobber here* one week, and then later on WWE will shove him into a feud with Ambrose, Reigns, or even Brock just because.
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Post by MAD TITAN on Dec 15, 2015 21:15:24 GMT -5
See you at the Rumble...
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 15, 2015 21:34:13 GMT -5
But whether it's an excuse or not, it's a reality of how you fix the product, and is no less untrue. Bringing in Dreamer and Rhyno averts the 50/50 booking that killed the product, and put the job of losing onto guys who weren't 'hurt' by what they did, while elevating four current, featured main roster guys in matches that got peoples' attention. A PPV match against guys otherwise only seen on Main Event would result in nobody giving a f***. Put those four dudes into a PPV match against the Wyatts and nobody cares. Put four guys people seem to give a shit about and have the heels go over them, and people get into it.
In what world did the Wyatts, who win no feuds ever and have been used to just put over goddamn everybody, not needed a win? They've lost a lot of their heat, and they needed to rise back up a bit first. Now, if they kill Los Matadores dead, there's something marginally more impressive to the performance for them having gone all the way in some big matches and actually won them, rather than not being able to get a win over anybody bigger than R Truth. People have been complaining here about whenever the Wyatts show up, attack someone, and then just lose to them. It's boring, repetitive, and does utterly nothing for their talents. This did something for them.
Nothing is stopping WWE from using guys they aren't booking, except for WWE not wanting to use them. Bringing in Rhyno and Dreamer to work only a couple weeks in the least invasive way possible, conclusively putting over the guys who'll be there the next week, didn't rob Zack Ryder of a PPV spot. I, for one, am not going to be too mad about nostalgia being used the right way for f***ing once.
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on Dec 15, 2015 21:57:09 GMT -5
This was a great little comeback. I was happy to see it, and it helped the Wyatts out unlike f***ing Undertaker.
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Post by ManInGauze on Dec 15, 2015 21:58:26 GMT -5
f*** off, fatass.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 15, 2015 21:59:48 GMT -5
But whether it's an excuse or not, it's a reality of how you fix the product, and is no less untrue. Bringing in Dreamer and Rhyno averts the 50/50 booking that killed the product, and put the job of losing onto guys who weren't 'hurt' by what they did, while elevating four current, featured main roster guys in matches that got peoples' attention. A PPV match against guys otherwise only seen on Main Event would result in nobody giving a f***. Put those four dudes into a PPV match against the Wyatts and nobody cares. Put four guys people seem to give a shit about and have the heels go over them, and people get into it. In what world did the Wyatts, who win no feuds ever and have been used to just put over goddamn everybody, not needed a win? They've lost a lot of their heat, and they needed to rise back up a bit first. Now, if they kill Los Matadores dead, there's something marginally more impressive to the performance for them having gone all the way in some big matches and actually won them, rather than not being able to get a win over anybody bigger than R Truth. People have been complaining here about whenever the Wyatts show up, attack someone, and then just lose to them. It's boring, repetitive, and does utterly nothing for their talents. This did something for them. Nothing is stopping WWE from using guys they aren't booking, except for WWE not wanting to use them. Bringing in Rhyno and Dreamer to work only a couple weeks in the least invasive way possible, conclusively putting over the guys who'll be there the next week, didn't rob Zack Ryder of a PPV spot. I, for one, am not going to be too mad about nostalgia being used the right way for f***ing once. But WWE needs to stop going for the nostalgia option, and start using the guys they have. They can at least try to make people give a shit about thosd guys. Something needs to change. They have to be used at some point. Sometimes I wish the option to call in anyone who wrestled before 1999 could be forcibly taken away from WWE. It's nice that Dreamer and Rhyno put younger guys over. But imo all they did was lose a competitive match that someone else could've lost instead. Someone else could've been slotted into that feud, put on a solid performance and made the fans realize that "hey this guys actually a good wrestler after all". But that will never happen as long as WWE is stuck in the past.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Dec 15, 2015 22:06:02 GMT -5
I'm surprised people are negative on the feud with Wyatts. I thought it was a lot of fun, the right team went over and we got that excellent extreme rules match on Raw out of it. I don't get the hate.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 15, 2015 22:08:13 GMT -5
But whether it's an excuse or not, it's a reality of how you fix the product, and is no less untrue. Bringing in Dreamer and Rhyno averts the 50/50 booking that killed the product, and put the job of losing onto guys who weren't 'hurt' by what they did, while elevating four current, featured main roster guys in matches that got peoples' attention. A PPV match against guys otherwise only seen on Main Event would result in nobody giving a f***. Put those four dudes into a PPV match against the Wyatts and nobody cares. Put four guys people seem to give a shit about and have the heels go over them, and people get into it. In what world did the Wyatts, who win no feuds ever and have been used to just put over goddamn everybody, not needed a win? They've lost a lot of their heat, and they needed to rise back up a bit first. Now, if they kill Los Matadores dead, there's something marginally more impressive to the performance for them having gone all the way in some big matches and actually won them, rather than not being able to get a win over anybody bigger than R Truth. People have been complaining here about whenever the Wyatts show up, attack someone, and then just lose to them. It's boring, repetitive, and does utterly nothing for their talents. This did something for them. Nothing is stopping WWE from using guys they aren't booking, except for WWE not wanting to use them. Bringing in Rhyno and Dreamer to work only a couple weeks in the least invasive way possible, conclusively putting over the guys who'll be there the next week, didn't rob Zack Ryder of a PPV spot. I, for one, am not going to be too mad about nostalgia being used the right way for f***ing once. But WWE needs to stop going for the nostalgia option, and start using the guys they have. They can at least try to make people give a shit about thosd guys. Something needs to change. They have to be used at some point. Sometimes I wish the option to call in anyone who wrestled before 1999 could be forcibly taken away from WWE. It's nice that Dreamer and Rhyno put younger guys over. But imo all they did was lose a competitive match that someone else could've lost instead. Someone else could've been slotted into that feud, put on a solid performance and made the fans realize that "hey this guys actually a good wrestler after all". But that will never happen as long as WWE is stuck in the past. They need t oget over that the idea that nostalgia is the best part of their product and that anyone who wrestling before 2005 is just the greatest. And that's exactly what this is. Nostalgia has its place in wrestling and veterans have a proven value, or else nostalgia pops simply wouldn't be a thing. It's just about using them well, and here, they were used well. No, putting a bunch of goobers who never show up on TV into a random story where they were meant to lose and then not really do anything else is the same thing as this. People were hot for this. People aren't hot for the union of The Ascension, Adam Rose, and Fandango. It would come off as a match meant to give a token, pointless win to the Wyatts and everyone would have tuned out. You can't drop someone into a match and expect them to magically get over just for having a good match; they need build and they need presence. WWE seeing nothing in them has no bearing on who they bring in for a couple matches and everything to do with those guys not being people Vince wants to push. Zack Ryder is a goober. Making him lose on PPV to the Wyatts isn't going to make people see him as anything else. Booking him to win matches and do stuff will. Nostalgia isn't anything to do with that.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 15, 2015 22:31:15 GMT -5
But WWE needs to stop going for the nostalgia option, and start using the guys they have. They can at least try to make people give a shit about thosd guys. Something needs to change. They have to be used at some point. Sometimes I wish the option to call in anyone who wrestled before 1999 could be forcibly taken away from WWE. It's nice that Dreamer and Rhyno put younger guys over. But imo all they did was lose a competitive match that someone else could've lost instead. Someone else could've been slotted into that feud, put on a solid performance and made the fans realize that "hey this guys actually a good wrestler after all". But that will never happen as long as WWE is stuck in the past. They need t oget over that the idea that nostalgia is the best part of their product and that anyone who wrestling before 2005 is just the greatest. And that's exactly what this is. Nostalgia has its place in wrestling and veterans have a proven value, or else nostalgia pops simply wouldn't be a thing. It's just about using them well, and here, they were used well. No, putting a bunch of goobers who never show up on TV into a random story where they were meant to lose and then not really do anything else is the same thing as this. People were hot for this. People aren't hot for the union of The Ascension, Adam Rose, and Fandango. It would come off as a match meant to give a token, pointless win to the Wyatts and everyone would have tuned out. You can't drop someone into a match and expect them to magically get over just for having a good match; they need build and they need presence. WWE seeing nothing in them has no bearing on who they bring in for a couple matches and everything to do with those guys not being people Vince wants to push. Zack Ryder is a goober. Making him lose on PPV to the Wyatts isn't going to make people see him as anything else. Booking him to win matches and do stuff will. Nostalgia isn't anything to do with that. But the feud with the ECW guys was the exact same thing: a match meant to give a token pointless win to the Wyatts. They would've never interacted with the likes of the Dudleys otherwise because even the ECW guys were a step down for the Wyatt Family. If they have good matches with higher profile opponents, the fans will actually see that they have talent and want more for them. Booking them to lose to featured talents is an easier way to wean them into the regular rotation. Booking someone like Ryder to win matches on RAW would be nice, but who does he beat? Losing competitively to a featured talent will do more to put him over than having him win cold matches against a guy that WWE would have to care even less about to have them lose to Ryder in the first place. It's better to make those guys look good in a loss to higher level talents than to make someone look like a "jobber to other jobbers" and thus make them look even weaker. And yes, the nostalgia is a big part of it. They have a lot of talents who are injured or otherwise unavailable and the TV time that would've gone to those talents needs to be filled with something.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Dec 15, 2015 22:45:20 GMT -5
But they beat someone with at least a bit of credibility. By having a competitive match with a lower midcarder would drag them down to their level instead of elevating them.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 15, 2015 22:45:53 GMT -5
But it was guys who the crowd gave a shit giving a win to the Wyatts. That's the key thing. People need to be built. Including lowcard nothings; they can't come up from nothing, and you can't build without people who the crowd gives a shit about. ECW nostalgia gets a pop, and that pop was used to put over four guys who are the now.
The Wyatts have feuded with the cream of the crop for WWE. Bray has spent forever locked in a long feud with Reigns that nobody really care about. Feuded with Ambrose. Cena. Bryan. It hasn't done anything for their heat. They don't look "strong in defeat" anymore because they can almost never pull off a win at the end of a feud. This was a win they needed. Finally, the common complaint about "neither guy can afford to lose this" was settled, because the ECW guys could afford to lose twice in a row. People went over and looked good. For once, a WWE feud was not two guys who both really needed a win trading them back and forth.
If you're saying Ryder is the bottom of the totem pole and should just be there to lose, then I hate to break this to you, but the entire structure of the wrestling industry, from the old days to the current era, is predicated upon the idea that guys who matter beat guys like Ryder and then go on to have actual fights that matter on the PPV. Which means that the Goober Squad wouldn't have been put into a featured match on the card, and the complaint doesn't really make much sense anyway.
If nostalgia were a bit part of it, if there were spots that these guys the company gives zero shits about could take, then do you genuinely think that if Rhyno and Dreamer weren't there, they would have pulled up someone they didn't want to use? Because even with the rash of injuries, they haven't actually pulled in as many guys as they'd need to properly offset the losses. They're just making segments longer. Nobody is moving up because of these injuries.
WWE has so many hours on TV that whether or not they bring a couple old guys back or not, they could easily book their whole roster if they wanted to. They clearly don't. That is a problem, yes, but it is a problem that has nothing to do with Dreamer and Rhyno coming in. This isn't Wrestlemania, where part-timers are knocking singles matches off of the card for one night of overshadowing the main event guys and then f***ing off. They wrestled two matches in the middles of cards that ended up being highlights of the night, put over current stars, and at no point overwhelmed the main event.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 15, 2015 22:52:35 GMT -5
But they beat someone with at least a bit of credibility. By having a competitive match with a lower midcarder would drag them down to their level instead of elevating them. But even with the ECW guys, they're being dragged down anyway. Even as over as they are, the ECW guys are a step down from where the Wyatt Family usually is. Tommy Dreamer in particular has never been anything higher than lower card in WWE, not even as ECW Champion.
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Doctor Of Style
King Koopa
Well, first they love me, and then they don't. Sometimes they do it, and sometimes they won't.
Posts: 12,104
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Dec 16, 2015 0:08:40 GMT -5
If they ever need him again, they can just lure him back with a bag of potato chips dangling from a stick.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
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Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,137
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 16, 2015 0:32:49 GMT -5
I'm surprised people are negative on the feud with Wyatts. I thought it was a lot of fun, the right team went over and we got that excellent extreme rules match on Raw out of it. I don't get the hate. I gave Tommy a lot of shit for his hideous polkadot pants, but that was a good match and kudos to him for putting over the Wyatts.
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mcstoklasa
Hank Scorpio
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 6,944
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Post by mcstoklasa on Dec 16, 2015 6:35:17 GMT -5
Good. Bye Tommy
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 10:27:50 GMT -5
Dreamer sure got a lot out of those few weeks. Big return, 3 Raw matches (one of which was one of the best Raw matches this year), PPV match, now he can go back to booking his own shit with a little bump in his value.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,296
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 16, 2015 11:32:04 GMT -5
I have it on good authority that Dreamer is back on the sauce {Spoiler}
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 30,569
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Post by lionheart21 on Dec 16, 2015 11:47:18 GMT -5
The only thing that really annoyed me about this run was that Rowan jobbed to him. Aside from that, I really can't complain.
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ronin705
Dennis Stamp
All Might
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Post by ronin705 on Dec 16, 2015 13:18:29 GMT -5
I'm very satisfied with this run, and truthfully, was expecting the hometown (i know what was i thinking) for the ECW alumni to stretch this feud out a bit more. Also, is it just me or has Bubba been acting more Bully like as of late??
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