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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 19, 2015 0:06:39 GMT -5
I think he would have started his own promotion at some point. I can't fault him for not staying in the rumored "Babe Ruth" role in the WWF. He had his brand to protect and continue moving forward. As big of a name that he is, he probably would have been lost to time by the turn of the century. I'm sure there's tons of people that don't know who Gregory Peck is anymore because his likeness isn't out there anymore and he was huge in the acting field. I think WCW would have went out of business. Frankly I think Hogan gave them some extra time, because Vince was hellbent on killing all of his competition and no one was going to stop him. I fail to see how the Babe Ruth role woild harm Hogan's brand. If anything, not being a full time competitor would have allowed Hulk to pursue interests that could have enhanced his brand.
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Post by willywonka666 on Dec 19, 2015 1:13:02 GMT -5
I think he would have started his own promotion at some point. I can't fault him for not staying in the rumored "Babe Ruth" role in the WWF. He had his brand to protect and continue moving forward. As big of a name that he is, he probably would have been lost to time by the turn of the century. I'm sure there's tons of people that don't know who Gregory Peck is anymore because his likeness isn't out there anymore and he was huge in the acting field. I think WCW would have went out of business. Frankly I think Hogan gave them some extra time, because Vince was hellbent on killing all of his competition and no one was going to stop him. I fail to see how the Babe Ruth role woild harm Hogan's brand. If anything, not being a full time competitor would have allowed Hulk to pursue interests that could have enhanced his brand. Well, we'll never know for sure, but his acting career didn't get off the ground, or his music career and I'm not sure what else he wanted to do. Hulk's no dummy though, I know he'd think of something, it just sucks what people have to do nowadays to keep their brand going-like reality tv for instance, and I don't know if that really helped him, it kept his name out there, but he was still involved with wrestling and that was vital to the show-without it-who knows?
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Post by jimmyjames on Dec 19, 2015 5:34:00 GMT -5
Despite what the last 10 years have done to Hogans image and my opinion about him, there's no denying he's the biggest star ever in wrestling and that transcended over into pop culture and non-wrestling fans. WCW would not have been as huge without him as it was with him. Hogan coming to WCW brought a lot of fans with him (and celebrity guest )and the early NWO would not have been the phenomenon as it was. Also, no Hogan, no Thunder in Paradise, and that was big for TNT and Turner in terms of syndication money. Saying all that, WCW still could have become bigger, assuming writing and character development stayed as good as it was. I know there's a lot of revisionist history that WCW and Bischoff didn't do anything and just raided WWF, but that's bogus and part of the WWF propaganda. It wasn't just Hogan who jumped ship and help WCW, but Flair coming back, Macho, Mean Gene, and Heenan in particular. Also, WWF probably would not have changed, they would have still been running 1980s type shows, and their could have been even bigger backstage tension and problems with The Kliq if Hogan was still in WWf.Most of WWF problems were self-inflicted and I don't see that not occurring because Hogan was there, if anything they might have been worst. I still thinkNitro would have aired and even without Hogan, could have over taken Raw.
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auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
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Post by auph10imitated on Dec 19, 2015 9:12:33 GMT -5
It would have died out eventually, as did ECW and of course TNA (and other try hard promotions) still pop up. I think it would have remained the same without "The War" but probably worse for us fans as it would be like it is now iwth WWF controlling the whole scene on ctruise control doing nothing interesting and guys wouldnt have the other options to work and probably would have had shorter careers (in some cases it may have saved lives if you look deeper into it, but thats another story)
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Dec 19, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -5
If Hogan had never gone to WCW, there would be a thread on this very board at this very minute titled: "What if Hogan had gone to WCW."
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Dec 19, 2015 14:48:08 GMT -5
WCW would have never went out of business until Turner was out, so they're surviving past 1995. If Hogan doesn't go to WCW, is he still in the WWF, because then you have Michaels and Hart going to WCW as Vince still continues to hitch his wagon to Hulk?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 15:32:14 GMT -5
Not sure what the world would look like but I bet it would make an interesting column to write about.
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Post by willywonka666 on Dec 19, 2015 16:19:54 GMT -5
Despite what the last 10 years have done to Hogans image and my opinion about him, there's no denying he's the biggest star ever in wrestling and that transcended over into pop culture and non-wrestling fans. WCW would not have been as huge without him as it was with him. Hogan coming to WCW brought a lot of fans with him (and celebrity guest )and the early NWO would not have been the phenomenon as it was. Also, no Hogan, no Thunder in Paradise, and that was big for TNT and Turner in terms of syndication money. Saying all that, WCW still could have become bigger, assuming writing and character development stayed as good as it was. I know there's a lot of revisionist history that WCW and Bischoff didn't do anything and just raided WWF, but that's bogus and part of the WWF propaganda. It wasn't just Hogan who jumped ship and help WCW, but Flair coming back, Macho, Mean Gene, and Heenan in particular. Also, WWF probably would not have changed, they would have still been running 1980s type shows, and their could have been even bigger backstage tension and problems with The Kliq if Hogan was still in WWf.Most of WWF problems were self-inflicted and I don't see that not occurring because Hogan was there, if anything they might have been worst. I still thinkNitro would have aired and even without Hogan, could have over taken Raw. It's funny-Vince took some of those exact same names from an increasingly out of touch AWA and that along with not changing with the times which you suggested the WWF would probably do, led to their demise
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 20, 2015 0:02:01 GMT -5
WCW would have never went out of business until Turner was out, so they're surviving past 1995. If Hogan doesn't go to WCW, is he still in the WWF, because then you have Michaels and Hart going to WCW as Vince still continues to hitch his wagon to Hulk? Hogan was out of the WWF after King of the Ring in June 1993; he'd done the unthinkable shortly beforehand when he ran down the WWF title at a news conference in Japan to promote (I think) AJPW. He was inactive in North America after that until he joined WCW. While it's possible that Hogan might have been able to get back into Vince's good graces, all things remaining equal, Hogan would have been a real fifth wheel in WWF by 1997.
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Post by wwefan71080 on Dec 20, 2015 1:32:42 GMT -5
Hogan never joins WCW in 1994 The face of the company would still be Sting but the more adult themed show would have come around by late 1994 with Vader running over the competition with maybe austin getting his chance as a world champ and since Bischoffs WCW was becoming more adult themed we may have seen Austin use his stone cold character{Minus the shaved head} sooner projecting WCW into competition category. I still believe Nitro would have started in 1995 but closer to January setting off the Monday night wars sooner. I also don't believe the NWO would have existed or would have been a lot less successful with Luger as the leader and no Hall and Nash but you would still have an unbelievable Cruiserweight division with still the usual names like Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, Dean Malenko, Chris Jericho, Psychosis, Juvi, Super Calo, La Parka, Ultimo Dragon, Jushin Thunder Liger, Chavo Guerrero Jr., Chris Benoit, Billy Kidman and the list goes on and on. WCW does survive past 2001 and may even still be around today and here would be the rosters for those years
Roster Ric Flair Goldberg Rick Steiner Scott Steiner The Wall Sting Vito Brian Adams Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell DDP Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kanyon Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Curt Henning M.I. Smooth Lex Luger Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Sean O'Haire Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid Terry Funk The Kiss Demon Barry Windham David Flair Stevie Ray Vampiro Chuck Palumbo Bam Bam Bigelow Randy Savage
Crusierweights Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms
2002 Roster Samoa Joe Ric Flair Goldberg Rick Steiner Scott Steiner The Wall Sting Vito Brian Adams Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell DDP Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kanyon Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Curt Henning M.I. Smooth Lex Luger Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Sean O'Haire Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid Terry Funk The Kiss Demon Barry Windham David Flair Stevie Ray Vampiro Chuck Palumbo Bam Bam Bigelow Randy Savage
Cruiserweights
Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms Brian Kendrick Bryan Danielson
2003
Roster Samoa Joe Ric Flair Goldberg Rick Steiner Scott Steiner The Wall Sting Vito Brian Adams Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell DDP Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kanyon Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Curt Henning M.I. Smooth Lex Luger Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Sean O'Haire Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid Terry Funk The Kiss Demon Barry Windham David Flair Stevie Ray Vampiro Chuck Palumbo Bam Bam Bigelow Randy Savage
Cruiserweights
Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms Brian Kendrick Bryan Danielson CM Punk Tajiri
Ill Skip a few years as there wouldn't be much change in roster Ill skip to 2010
2010 Samoa Joe Ric Flair Rick Steiner Scott Steiner Sting Vito Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid The Kiss Demon Chuck Palumbo Randy Savage Batista
Cruiserweights Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms Brian Kendrick Bryan Danielson CM Punk Tajiri Joey Mercury Dolph Ziggler Jon Moxley Divari Zack Ryder John Morrison
and while they wouldnt have been competition to WWE anymore they would still be better than TNA if hogan never went to WCW and they would still be around
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Post by DJ Maniak on Dec 20, 2015 11:36:17 GMT -5
Hogan never joins WCW in 1994 The face of the company would still be Sting but the more adult themed show would have come around by late 1994 with Vader running over the competition with maybe austin getting his chance as a world champ and since Bischoffs WCW was becoming more adult themed we may have seen Austin use his stone cold character{Minus the shaved head} sooner projecting WCW into competition category. I still believe Nitro would have started in 1995 but closer to January setting off the Monday night wars sooner. I also don't believe the NWO would have existed or would have been a lot less successful with Luger as the leader and no Hall and Nash but you would still have an unbelievable Cruiserweight division with still the usual names like Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, Dean Malenko, Chris Jericho, Psychosis, Juvi, Super Calo, La Parka, Ultimo Dragon, Jushin Thunder Liger, Chavo Guerrero Jr., Chris Benoit, Billy Kidman and the list goes on and on. WCW does survive past 2001 and may even still be around today and here would be the rosters for those years Roster Ric Flair Goldberg Rick Steiner Scott Steiner The Wall Sting Vito Brian Adams Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell DDP Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kanyon Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Curt Henning M.I. Smooth Lex Luger Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Sean O'Haire Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid Terry Funk The Kiss Demon Barry Windham David Flair Stevie Ray Vampiro Chuck Palumbo Bam Bam Bigelow Randy Savage Crusierweights Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms 2002 Roster Samoa Joe Ric Flair Goldberg Rick Steiner Scott Steiner The Wall Sting Vito Brian Adams Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell DDP Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kanyon Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Curt Henning M.I. Smooth Lex Luger Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Sean O'Haire Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid Terry Funk The Kiss Demon Barry Windham David Flair Stevie Ray Vampiro Chuck Palumbo Bam Bam Bigelow Randy Savage Cruiserweights Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms Brian Kendrick Bryan Danielson 2003 Roster Samoa Joe Ric Flair Goldberg Rick Steiner Scott Steiner The Wall Sting Vito Brian Adams Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell DDP Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kanyon Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Curt Henning M.I. Smooth Lex Luger Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Sean O'Haire Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid Terry Funk The Kiss Demon Barry Windham David Flair Stevie Ray Vampiro Chuck Palumbo Bam Bam Bigelow Randy Savage Cruiserweights Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms Brian Kendrick Bryan Danielson CM Punk Tajiri Ill Skip a few years as there wouldn't be much change in roster Ill skip to 2010 2010 Samoa Joe Ric Flair Rick Steiner Scott Steiner Sting Vito Bryan Clark Booker T Marcus{Buff}Bagwell Dustin Rhodes Jim Duggan Ron and Don Harris Hugh Morrus Johnny the Bull Jeff Jarrett Kevin Nash Ernest Miller Mark Jindrak Meng Mike Awesome Mike Sanders Norman Smiley Reno Shane Douglas Shawn Stasiak Sid The Kiss Demon Chuck Palumbo Randy Savage Batista Cruiserweights Air Paris A J Styles Christopher Daniels Rey Misterio Chavo Guerrero Jr Juvi Psychosis Jamie Noble Kid Kash Jimmy Yang Elix Skipper Evan Karagias Disco Inferno Kaz Hayashi Kwee Wee Lance Storm Lash LeRoux Shannon Moore Shane Helms Brian Kendrick Bryan Danielson CM Punk Tajiri Joey Mercury Dolph Ziggler Jon Moxley Divari Zack Ryder John Morrison and while they wouldnt have been competition to WWE anymore they would still be better than TNA if hogan never went to WCW and they would still be around Looking at these lists, would it be safe to say that Mike Awesome, Kanyon and O'Haire would still be alive had WCW not gone under? And that's only half of the deceased wrestlers I found in this post.
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Post by gatordone on Dec 20, 2015 14:49:25 GMT -5
Hogan was filming a movie when WCW signed him so it's not like he didn't have other interests at that time. Giving him big money and creative control is what lured him back into wrestling and for those who think he's the reason why WCW went under think again. They were a money pit before Hogan arrived and the NWO angle is what got the Monday Night wars started and sold out arenas. It pushed the WWF to improve it's product and create new stars like Rock and Austin. It also made wrestling popular again and topic of conversation at the water cooler. He did put Goldberg Sting and Luger over so you can't blame him for holding talent back. If Hogan doesn't join WCW they would have been the TNA of the ninety's.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Dec 20, 2015 15:55:46 GMT -5
There would be no 3 Ninjas: High Noon at Mega Mountain.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 20, 2015 15:58:17 GMT -5
Hogan was filming a movie when WCW signed him so it's not like he didn't have other interests at that time. Giving him big money and creative control is what lured him back into wrestling and for those who think he's the reason why WCW went under think again. They were a money pit before Hogan arrived and the NWO angle is what got the Monday Night wars started and sold out arenas. It pushed the WWF to improve it's product and create new stars like Rock and Austin. It also made wrestling popular again and topic of conversation at the water cooler. He did put Goldberg Sting and Luger over so you can't blame him for holding talent back. If Hogan doesn't join WCW they would have been the TNA of the ninety's. He put Luger over, then went over Luger at the first available opportunity, he put Sting over by demanding the screwiest finish he could which made Sting look like a chump and he put over Goldberg by burning through the moneymaking feud in under a month and had the payoff on Nitro, using it to set up his next 'big' feud, wrestling celebrities. Goldberg had a great filler match for his first PPV as champion though, a 7 years past his prime Curt Hennig, lower down the card than the card than a Hogan and celebrities, and that pattern would continue, with whatever asinine thing Hogan was up to being painted as far more vital than the world champion. While I agree Hogan was a big factor in WCW doing as well as it did, he went out of his way to put people over without genuinely putting them over, see the Uncensored 99 match with Flair, and by 1998 he was a big factor in their decline and it was well past the time to cut him loose because he was a major problem, there could not be a plan for WCW going forward that didn't feature Hogan at the top of the card. We saw it in 1999, he turned face after the fingerpoke of doom by being booked as though he's the face then changing the colours of his tights, all without the effort of a genuine faceturn. No 'I'm sorry for the NWO' promos, no helping other faces, just booking other people the crowd liked more as heels and a change of pants.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 20, 2015 22:15:21 GMT -5
WCW would have never went out of business until Turner was out, so they're surviving past 1995. If Hogan doesn't go to WCW, is he still in the WWF, because then you have Michaels and Hart going to WCW as Vince still continues to hitch his wagon to Hulk? Hogan was out of the WWF after King of the Ring in June 1993; he'd done the unthinkable shortly beforehand when he ran down the WWF title at a news conference in Japan to promote (I think) AJPW. He was inactive in North America after that until he joined WCW. While it's possible that Hogan might have been able to get back into Vince's good graces, all things remaining equal, Hogan would have been a real fifth wheel in WWF by 1997. He was in NJPW, actually and he was challenging for the IWGP title when he ran down the WWF title. His last WWF matches were in August when he wrestled Yokozuna on their European tour just a few weeks before Summerslam.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 20, 2015 22:44:43 GMT -5
The entire Monday Night Wars era never happens; the entire lynchpin of that era is that it was a wrestling-specific cultural reaction by teens/20-30 somethings toward the type of pro wrestling that babyface Hulk Hogan had represented from the mid 80s through the early 90s. Take away the turn to Hollywood Hogan, and the impetus for the launch of the "deconstruction of Hulkamania", as it were, isn't there.
I suppose ECW could have still filled that void to some extent, but I'm not sure it could've gotten big enough to really do it.
Does this mean WCW survives into the 21st century? Honestly, I can't even guess. But it likely doesn't wind up looking the way it did in the late 90s, at the very least, nor does the WWF.
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Post by gatordone on Dec 20, 2015 22:58:02 GMT -5
I would also throw in that Sting may never have reached icon status. Hogan was the greatest heel he ever faced in his career. It was a huge boost to Sting's popularity.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 21, 2015 7:56:48 GMT -5
Hogan was out of the WWF after King of the Ring in June 1993; he'd done the unthinkable shortly beforehand when he ran down the WWF title at a news conference in Japan to promote (I think) AJPW. He was inactive in North America after that until he joined WCW. While it's possible that Hogan might have been able to get back into Vince's good graces, all things remaining equal, Hogan would have been a real fifth wheel in WWF by 1997. He was in NJPW, actually and he was challenging for the IWGP title when he ran down the WWF title. His last WWF matches were in August when he wrestled Yokozuna on their European tour just a few weeks before Summerslam. I stand corrected on those details. Thank you. I will stand by my assertion, though, that by 1997 there was really no place for Hogan in the mix in WWF booking-wise and that his presence then would have been less than welcome by many fans - think John Cena now turned up to 11, minus Cena's self-awareness. But we're talking about Hogan never arriving at WCW, not Hogan never leaving WWF - big Holy Moses difference. There would have been no Billionaire Ted sketches; at least, none on the level of what actually occurred. WWF at the time was banking on its relatively younger headliners in contrast to WCW's use of Savage and Hogan, both over 40 at the time and seemingly forever on the scene. However, Turner was on a shopping spree for wrestling talent to take a fight to McMahon even before snagging Hogan, it seems. Who, then, would have been Turner and Bischoff's Plan B Major Game-Changing Promotion Jumper? Hall and Nash were seen as rather big coups for WCW at the time, but I don't think that they were who Ted and Eric were really after. More to the point, I don't think Michaels was the big fish they were trolling for; Michaels did not get his major world title push until the "injury" and the Shane Douglas burial in which Michaels tearfully surrendered the I-C belt to Douglas who then promptly lost it to Razor Ramon. By then, it was well-established with just about anyone with a computer and modem that Michaels was a PITA who was as likely to abandon a title as to lose it in the ring. Michaels was also not the technical wizard that many apologists have asserted he was. He was a former aerialist who got by more on being "scrappy", but was largely carried by either larger or more proficient opponents. Whatever he had that kept him near the top at WWF was behind the scenes and would not have translated well to WCW. Bret Hart's jump to WCW at almost any point prior to November 1997, on the other hand, might have sounded the death knell for WWF. Here was a talent who a) thought more about what was good for the promotion and for the business than necessarily about his own spot or legacy (both of which he was earning with almost every match); b) largely did what was asked of him, suggesting alternatives when those were likely to improve on the outcome and/or goals of the booking; c) was deeply respected and well-regarded by most in the locker room, while bridging any gulf between talent and promotion; d) generated enough revenue for WWF overseas that they stayed above water most years - 1996 was the exception, and who was champion then? and e) had managed to remain, in many ways, the Face of the WWF in spite of other talents holding the World title and in spite of some very overt pushes of other talents instead of Hart (Luger, Michaels, even Hogan in the eyes of many). Hart's relative burial in WCW can be argued as the direct result of Hogan's influence as well as that of Hall and Nash. Without Hogan, Hart would have gone into WCW calling some major shots and leaving Hall and Nash out in the cold, I think.
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Post by BlackJackRobby on Dec 21, 2015 13:39:37 GMT -5
It would be very interesting to say the least.
Without Hogan there wouldn't be a Monday Nitro
Yet Eric Bischoff would've still brought in Eddie, Chris, Dean, and Jericho. The Luchadors would've also been brought in so it wouldn't of had a change as far as that goes.
The real question is could Mick Foley and Steve Austin transform themselves into who they became without being fired by WCW?
If they could then WCW would be strong today, if they couldn't break the glass ceiling then WCW would die in 2001 in the same exact situation. It seems losing money or not Jamie Kellner just wanted wrestling off his programming.
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