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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2015 16:08:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I know this is the third Don Bluth-related topic I have opened up in the last few days but this time, it is now about his arcade games but rather about something I have been interested in for a while now... By this time, most should be familiar with the general Don Bluth timeline: -Former animator at Disney, leaves around the time of "The Fox And The Hound" -Creates his own animation studio, Don Bluth Productions, and manages to create a bunch of financially successful and critically acclaimed animated movies (The Secret of NIMH, An American Tail, The Land Before Time, All Dogs Go To Heaven) that were beating Disney in the 1980s. -Then creates critical failures and box office bombs (Rock-A-Doodle, A Troll In Central Park, The Pebble And The Penguin) who lead to the end of Don Bluth Productions. I won't go into the Fox Animation era that created Anastasia and Titan A.E. because I am mostly interested in the above period. What I am curious about is: how does one go from creating wonderful and fondly remembered movies to suddenly creating movies that people would like to forget? -Was Don Bluth basically Vince Russo who had people who filtered his ideas in the 1980s but who disappeared making his films in the 1990s examples of what happens when you let him off unfiltered? -Did he have a bunch of Yes-Men around him who never really told him the problems with his 1990s films, thus making him tread along the path of destruction? -How much of this is actually his fault? Wiki lists him as the director on these movies, but isn't it more the screen writer's fault that the movies were so much less than his 1980s output? I am really curious about how this developed, so if any of you FANs has any insight or knows a good documentary/internet editorial/etc. that talks about this, it would be really appreciated.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Dec 23, 2015 16:25:16 GMT -5
90's theatrical animation in general got hit hard by the Disney-effect. After the success of movies like The Little Mermaid and Lion King, there was suddenly pressure on Studios to make their animated movies that become merchandising empires. It's similar to how, in the last decade, majority of animated movies were trying to copy the Dreamworks' Formula.
With Don Bluth, you could see the sudden decline in quality because of that after All Dogs Go to Heaven.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 23, 2015 16:45:24 GMT -5
He got sober/clean.
Probably not the reason, but it is a reason for a lot of career declines.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 23, 2015 17:23:11 GMT -5
Disney was churning out crap in the 80'sand audiences liked having an alternative. Then the 90's came and Disney went through a resurgence while the competition started turning out crap.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 24, 2015 4:18:57 GMT -5
I have no clue how much of his downturn was due to burnout or executive meddling, but I'd rather let a kid watch one of his "worse" films over some present day alternatives.
Like Troll in Central Park, it's not a good movie- the characters are written weakly and the story's pretty dumb, but that animation, my God. I still enjoy Anastasia a lot, and Titan A.E was a fun movie that was mostly just poorly marketed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 4:58:40 GMT -5
I have no clue how much of his downturn was due to burnout or executive meddling, but I'd rather let a kid watch one of his "worse" films over some present day alternatives. Like Troll in Central Park, it's not a good movie- the characters are written weakly and the story's pretty dumb, but that animation, my God. I still enjoy Anastasia a lot, and Titan A.E was a fun movie that was mostly just poorly marketed. The thing I remember most about "A Troll In Central Park" when it had its theatrical run: I was ten years old at the time, I went into every Disney movie every year, that year I went to Disneyland Paris and had a blast, was watching my Saturday Morning Cartoons every weekend. And when "A Troll In Central Park" ads were on, I thought "that must be for younger children than me. I am too old for this." Again believe me, I was a normal ten-year-old, not a snob or a smartass kid or something, but when I saw those ads I thought it was a movie meant for 5-6 year-olds. I don't know if it was because of Stanley, some of the dialogue I heard or the "cutesy-poo" flowers I saw. I just thought that movie was not for me, something I never experienced when rewatching An American Tail or A Land Before Time in 1995.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 24, 2015 5:17:21 GMT -5
I know Rock-A-Doodle isn't very good by any stretch, but it's a pretty endearing film to me, anyhow. Even the main character's comically bad voice acting.
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Post by sternrogers01 on Dec 24, 2015 5:19:32 GMT -5
Titan A.E was awesome. It'd have made a better video game than movie like a 21st century Space Ace.
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Glitch
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Post by Glitch on Dec 24, 2015 5:31:22 GMT -5
Because he was too extreme.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 5:42:41 GMT -5
The more I think about it, there is one thing that stand out to me about Don Bluth's 1980s work compared to his 1990s work...
1. Bad things happening to the good guys that are permanent (and not of the death-fake-out variety):
-Secret of NIMH: Nicodemus's death. -The Land Before Time: Littlefoot's mother's death -All Dogs Go To Heaven: The main character dying at the end without some last-minute reset button bringing him back to life or anything.
An American Tail is probably the odd man out of his 1980s work, but when I compare it to Disney during the 1980s or the 1990s:
-The Lion King: Mufasa's death
And there is really nothing else that immediately springs to mind from the 1980s until the late 1990s Disney movies.
You could say that Don Bluth did not pull any punches when it came to getting an emotional reaction and that not everything went smoothly for the main characters by the end.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 24, 2015 6:10:12 GMT -5
The more I think about it, there is one thing that stand out to me about Don Bluth's 1980s work compared to his 1990s work... 1. Bad things happening to the good guys that are permanent (and not of the death-fake-out variety): -Secret of NIMH: Nicodemus's death. -The Land Before Time: Littlefoot's mother's death -All Dogs Go To Heaven: The main character dying at the end without some last-minute reset button bringing him back to life or anything. An American Tail is probably the odd man out of his 1980s work, but when I compare it to Disney during the 1980s or the 1990s: -The Lion King: Mufasa's death And there is really nothing else that immediately springs to mind from the 1980s until the late 1990s Disney movies. You could say that Don Bluth did not pull any punches when it came to getting an emotional reaction and that not everything went smoothly for the main characters by the end. One thing I don't think people talk enough with about Bluth is how great a director he is, animation of otherwise. Because he's so good at drawing expressions, he can put a lot of emotional power into scenes when needed. Like towards the end of All Dogs when Charlie is apologizing to Anne Marie- despite him being a silly cartoon dog, you can see so much regret in his eyes and face, and the way Reynolds whispers "I'm so sorry" is heartbreaking.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 6:12:39 GMT -5
That's another good point, Clash.
Too bad, we could not have had a 1998 WWF/WCW situation with Disney/Don Bluth Productions.
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Post by Hakumental on Dec 24, 2015 11:22:59 GMT -5
The short answer is that as Disney began to break the box office, Bluth's funders wanted him to make that kind of money. And invariably, "making that kind of money" means "making that kind of movie."
You can see the problem.
It's like a smaller wrestling company going head-to-head with WWE. Eventually, your backers get tired of not seeing that delicious WWE money and ask why you're not "going with what works." Same thing happened with Bluth.
It's also worth mentioning that Bluth actually had varying levels of input on many of the later films he made - frequently, he was Director of Animation and that was it. There are some interviews he's given on sequels he worked on where he effectively says "Yeah, I have no idea why this movie exists." That tells you a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 12:32:35 GMT -5
Disney was churning out crap in the 80'sand audiences liked having an alternative. Then the 90's came and Disney went through a resurgence while the competition started turning out crap. By the early 1980s, Disney was a relic where there was no standard for quality because it was full of old people with no grasp, and as a result, for animation, people went to other studios for decent films, but when Michael Eisner and Jeffrey Katzenberg showed up, things changed around in a hurry for Disney, and the focus in the industry went from "Don't be like Disney" to "Mimic Disney as much as possible". As a result, a lot of non-Disney movies suffered from both an incentive by desperate studios to make movies that would sell a lot of merchandise as well as the fact that some companies actually, and this was pre-DreamWorks (when budgets and talent salaries ballooned), were trying to make animated films as quickly and as cheaply as possible. The thing about Don Bluth movies is that while they are nice films, they never had a lot of potential for selling toys and knickknacks because they were often motivated with general storytelling, and as a result, people often forgot about the characters specifically when they left the theater. And it is often the characters that are motivation for selling merchandise. It's very complicated, but ultimately, Bluth was a guy who got really lucky at the right time, and then when the climate changed in an instant, he was suddenly regarded as a liability. Not because he was a "bad" director, but because his projects were never the kind that would make The Lion King money.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 12:44:53 GMT -5
Steven Spielberg.
I think Spielberg was a big reason why Bluth's success was what it was. He brought the money which Bluth needed (fun fact: Bluth Productions' 1st movie was The Secret of NIMH - and despite it doing well at the box office, his studio went bankrupt because of it) and with that came oversight. That probably resulted in tighter editorial control, and wider release/attention to his movies.
It should be noted that Spielberg was a huge animation geek (the money he had spent on Tiny Toons/Animaniacs included completely reviving the old WB animation and recording studios) so it's not like some uncaring producer & company was in charge. From all accounts he was actively involved with the movies. He and Bluth probably worked well because both had a love for the classic way animation was produced and developed.
But for all that said, their association was 2 movies - An American Tail (only the original, Bluth wasn't involved with the sequel), and The Land Before Time. Bluth and Spielberg split before All Dogs Go To Heaven, which was (moreorless) Bluth's last animated success. And that one managed to hit big on home video moreso than the big screen, where it still did well at least.
And by that point, Disney's rebirth - courtesy of The Little Mermaid, and to a lesser extent Roger Rabbit which was more of a Touchstone live action movie success - was underway. Bluth's movies after All Dogs Go To Heaven (again, he wasn't involved with that franchise's sequels) were bombs.
In fact, another factor in his downfall was that, as I'm reading about his movies..........he wasn't involved with sequels or the continuation of the franchises, which probably would've helped his production company immensely. But sadly, it seems like he was more a work for hire kind of guy, brought in by movie companies to start up a franchise-able series and then sent away while the money poured into their coffers for sequels and TV series and the like. Land Before Time has had 13 sequels - none of them were by Bluth. We'd still be talking about him as an active producer and animator if he'd managed to have that kind of sustained success.
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Post by Sir Woodrow on Dec 24, 2015 16:07:10 GMT -5
Steven Spielberg. I think Spielberg was a big reason why Bluth's success was what it was. He brought the money which Bluth needed (fun fact: Bluth Productions' 1st movie was The Secret of NIMH - and despite it doing well at the box office, his studio went bankrupt because of it) and with that came oversight. That probably resulted in tighter editorial control, and wider release/attention to his movies. It should be noted that Spielberg was a huge animation geek (the money he had spent on Tiny Toons/Animaniacs included completely reviving the old WB animation and recording studios) so it's not like some uncaring producer & company was in charge. From all accounts he was actively involved with the movies. He and Bluth probably worked well because both had a love for the classic way animation was produced and developed. But for all that said, their association was 2 movies - An American Tail (only the original, Bluth wasn't involved with the sequel), and The Land Before Time. Bluth and Spielberg split before All Dogs Go To Heaven, which was (moreorless) Bluth's last animated success. And that one managed to hit big on home video moreso than the big screen, where it still did well at least. And by that point, Disney's rebirth - courtesy of The Little Mermaid, and to a lesser extent Roger Rabbit which was more of a Touchstone live action movie success - was underway. Bluth's movies after All Dogs Go To Heaven (again, he wasn't involved with that franchise's sequels) were bombs. In fact, another factor in his downfall was that, as I'm reading about his movies..........he wasn't involved with sequels or the continuation of the franchises, which probably would've helped his production company immensely. But sadly, it seems like he was more a work for hire kind of guy, brought in by movie companies to start up a franchise-able series and then sent away while the money poured into their coffers for sequels and TV series and the like. Land Before Time has had 13 sequels - none of them were by Bluth. We'd still be talking about him as an active producer and animator if he'd managed to have that kind of sustained success. And the thing about Roger Rabbit is Spielberg had a hand in that too
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 24, 2015 17:16:11 GMT -5
He tried to out-Disney Disney, and couldn't, because the films weren't good enough, and his studio wasn't big enough to compete.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Dec 25, 2015 3:19:03 GMT -5
Bluth's first in series: good to great.
Bluth's sequels: never should have been made.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 25, 2015 5:26:24 GMT -5
Bluth's first in series: good to great. Bluth's sequels: never should have been made. Feivel Goes West is pretty decent, even if it's absurd and also chronologically a little confusing.
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tms
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Post by tms on Dec 25, 2015 12:25:46 GMT -5
Bluth's first in series: good to great. Bluth's sequels: never should have been made. I'd extend that to Dragon's Lair 2 as well. It was just horrible in terms of gameplay (much more so than the original), and while the animation was excellent on a technical level, it veered way too off course to the grotesque with a bizarre plot.
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