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Post by edgestar on Dec 26, 2015 10:44:19 GMT -5
You done good, .....baby boy
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Post by superchamp on Dec 26, 2015 10:55:51 GMT -5
I was hoping this was going to be like the Good Guy Triple H meme thread. I loved that thread
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 26, 2015 12:23:53 GMT -5
While I agree with lots of the sentiments in the thread, I think we're being too black-and-white on just how cutthroat things were before. There's always been strong camaraderie in wrestling. Like when Bret Hart won the title, people were happy for him because he was that good and earned it. People respected Hulk Hogan when he was on top because he drew tons of money and he was seen as a good person. But when Warrior was on top people were pissed because of the way he carried himself and the perception that he didn't pay his dues. Things do seem better now in that you don't have (drug-fueled) ego-clashes between people over their SPOT. But, we often hear older stars saying the talent are on pins and needles trying not to piss off any of the higher-ups, and that overall the backstage vibe is different. Maybe those things are related; since current crop are seen as more passive, maybe they're seen as easier to control. There's zero reason that has to be the case though. I don't even understand why WWE wants to control the talent so much, when their biggest stars came from eras where that wasn't the case. Thanks, Steph? Not saying it isn't better to chill and be happy for your fellow wrestlers, but it's not like the atmosphere was completely toxic then and we're in a utopic state of harmony now. The conflicts and problems are just of a different nature. I had to go my wrestling mentor, 2-Chainz, for his opinion on this post and he said, "Truuu..."
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 26, 2015 12:37:09 GMT -5
I remember a quote from I think Kofi Kingston a few years back, where he said something like "There isn't a lot of politics among the newer generation of guys, we mostly just play video games." That's why they all draw flies. No, they "draw flies" because wrestling isn't cool anymore and the writing of it is trash, not because people no longer throw hissy fits about not winning fake accolades.
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Post by "Mr Wonderdick" Dick Dastardly on Dec 26, 2015 13:59:35 GMT -5
That's why they all draw flies. No, they "draw flies" because wrestling isn't cool anymore and the writing of it is trash, not because people no longer throw hissy fits about not winning fake accolades. The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management.
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on Dec 26, 2015 14:18:00 GMT -5
Caring about your coworkers/friends/colleagues = cool cool cool (Vince: "lazy soft millenials!") Politicking/manipulating/badmouthing your coworkers etc (see Hogan, Nash, 90's Shawn) = assholes (Vince: "DETERMINATION AND FIRE! BEAUTIFUL!") Sounds about right.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 26, 2015 14:20:15 GMT -5
No, they "draw flies" because wrestling isn't cool anymore and the writing of it is trash, not because people no longer throw hissy fits about not winning fake accolades. The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management. I fail to see how it's a wrestlers fault for bookers not making the right decisions. That is literally THEIR JOB, and while maybe Bryan could have had more of a backbone, I'm not gonna lay the blame on him. A flash in the pan? Hardly. He had a Wrestlemania practically dedicated to him and only injuries have stopped him going any further. Those guys you listed, sure, a lot of them had egos, but if they didn't have the amount of talent they had they wouldn't have been listened to. Not without the company going under anyway. Being douchebags probably only prolonged their careers, not always for the better. My point is, the company is NOT doing poorly because people backstage aren't being dickwads to eachother. It's doing poorly because the writing is ass.
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Post by salvatoresincere on Dec 26, 2015 22:23:03 GMT -5
No, they "draw flies" because wrestling isn't cool anymore and the writing of it is trash, not because people no longer throw hissy fits about not winning fake accolades. The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management. I agree with this 100%. You think Bret Hart would stand in the ring and get bitchslapped by an "authority" figure? Or curtain jerk at Wrestlemania and lose in 18 seconds? Would never happen. He'd rather die than let some booker disrespect him or his character. Daniel Bryan, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care what they do to his character. So why should I care about him? Sorry, I blame the wrestlers for not demanding better from the bookers and writers. That's why I respect CM PUNK like no one else. He has balls and stands up for himself. And it's just like in real life, where people bitch about their jobs and their boss. But do they ever quit and find something better or stand up and ask for a raise? No, most people would rather sit there and wallow in mediocrity forever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2015 22:53:21 GMT -5
The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management. I agree with this 100%. You think Bret Hart would stand in the ring and get bitchslapped by an "authority" figure? Or curtain jerk at Wrestlemania and lose in 18 seconds? Would never happen. He'd rather die than let some booker disrespect him or his character. Daniel Bryan, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care what they do to his character. So why should I care about him? Sorry, I blame the wrestlers for not demanding better from the bookers and writers. That's why I respect CM PUNK like no one else. He has balls and stands up for himself. And it's just like in real life, where people bitch about their jobs and their boss. But do they ever quit and find something better or stand up and ask for a raise? No, most people would rather sit there and wallow in mediocrity forever. I think there's truth to what you're saying. To me, it shouldn't even be on the talent because the bad ideas are coming from elsewhere, but I do agree people could likely stand up for themselves more. We've heard stories about Punk and the Shield guys doing it. It is harder now though, because of the lack of strong alternative companies and how many layers there are between Vince and the talent nowdays. Punk would've left and gone to WCW, or long ago gone to another territory. Now? Guys have to leave wrestling completely to keep from slumming it. Punk's love for the entire business was drained by all that fighting. And it used to be a few guys and Vince, now there's like 5 heads of talent relations and whatnot, the structure of the company is so thick, and so corporate. A lot of guys probably just don't think it's worth it, and I don't blame them.
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Post by "Mr Wonderdick" Dick Dastardly on Dec 26, 2015 23:02:20 GMT -5
The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management. I agree with this 100%. You think Bret Hart would stand in the ring and get bitchslapped by an "authority" figure? Or curtain jerk at Wrestlemania and lose in 18 seconds? Would never happen. He'd rather die than let some booker disrespect him or his character. Daniel Bryan, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care what they do to his character. So why should I care about him? Sorry, I blame the wrestlers for not demanding better from the bookers and writers. That's why I respect CM PUNK like no one else. He has balls and stands up for himself. And it's just like in real life, where people bitch about their jobs and their boss. But do they ever quit and find something better or stand up and ask for a raise? No, most people would rather sit there and wallow in mediocrity forever. People are just "happy to be there", because they are afraid of NOT being in the WWE. Hell, at least guys like CJ Parker, Solomon Crowe, and every other lower card who asked to be released to explore other opportunities in wrestling had the balls to be like "okay, you're not going to use me, that's okay. Let me go from contract and let me grow as a performer and if a spot opens up for me, then we can talk." At least Zack Ryder did something that got him noticed, however, he faltered when he was given that opportunity. He didn't seize it, he didn't shine when the light was on him, he gave unspectacular performances. People can say he was booked to look like a goof, but he should've taken the chance to make the most out of looking like a goof or at least counter-act that with awesome matches, but that never happened and that's why he got shoved back down the card. Look at Roman Reigns, he's been booked to look like a goof, but he goes out and has awesome matches. Reigns would be in a different position if his matches stunk up the joint every night. Look at a guy like HBK. He was put in a feud with Hogan that was suppose to get three PPV matches, however Hogan decides that he can only do one. HBK had to do the job. So, what did HBK do? He jobbed in spectacular fashion that no one talked about Hogan winning, they talked about how entertaining HBK was while in defeat. HBK knew he couldn't out politic Hogan, but he could out perform him and bump like a human pinball cartoon character.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 27, 2015 2:28:28 GMT -5
No, they "draw flies" because wrestling isn't cool anymore and the writing of it is trash, not because people no longer throw hissy fits about not winning fake accolades. The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management. Rock didn't have an ego. If there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans then the roster will draw because everyone is a charismatic wrestler who can work their ass off.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 27, 2015 8:58:05 GMT -5
I just don't buy into this fable that guys CAN stand up for themselves (unless, again, they rake in buckets of cash, but that would be in spite of it, not because of).
You think Heath Slater could just approach Vince, call his late mother a whore, and make a list of demands and we'll be seeing him in the main event of next PPV? The brass ring, as Punk said, is non-existent. And he should know, he was one of the aggressive types Vince apparently likes.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 27, 2015 9:58:07 GMT -5
I just don't buy into this fable that guys CAN stand up for themselves (unless, again, they rake in buckets of cash, but that would be in spite of it, not because of). You think Heath Slater could just approach Vince, call his late mother a whore, and make a list of demands and we'll be seeing him in the main event of next PPV? The brass ring, as Punk said, is non-existent. And he should know, he was one of the aggressive types Vince apparently likes. Punk realized that no matter you rage against the machine, you are still are part of the machine. Thinking you are a rebel but discovering you are just playing into the hands of the puppet masters. Once he came to that realization, he called it quits. Butting heads with the McMahons isn't going to earn respect. Saying no to terrible ideas won't make you immune to the next bad idea cooked up by creative. Vince loves it when he causes drama among the workers. He hates the new generation because they do their one-upmanship in the ring instead of backstage. You shouldn't be submissive all of the time but being an alpha isn't going to make you the Man in WWE.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 27, 2015 10:20:31 GMT -5
He'd rather die than let some booker disrespect him or his character. That makes him an idiot.
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Post by salvatoresincere on Dec 27, 2015 11:34:56 GMT -5
He'd rather die than let some booker disrespect him or his character. That makes him an idiot. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 27, 2015 11:40:40 GMT -5
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I'm not sure that applies to a fake sport. It's Steven Segal 'my character never dies in any movie' level lunacy.
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Post by Lazy peon on Dec 27, 2015 13:00:18 GMT -5
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I'm not sure that applies to a fake sport. It's Steven Segal 'my character never dies in any movie' level lunacy. Steven Segal rarely even takes a single hit in his movies. No doubt he does it to make himself look tough, but it just shows how egotistical and insecure he is, never wanting to appear weak. Just like the big wrestlers who try too much to protect their characters.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 27, 2015 14:34:09 GMT -5
No, they "draw flies" because wrestling isn't cool anymore and the writing of it is trash, not because people no longer throw hissy fits about not winning fake accolades. The point is, the most successful wrestlers have egos. Hogan, Flair, Dusty, Piper, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Bret, Savage, HBK, etc. they all had big egos in some form. They are the ones who were willing to speak out, stood up for themselves, dared to be different, carried themselves like a star, etc. For better or for worse, they wanted to be the best, they thought they were the best, and they weren't a bunch of passive pussies backstage. People cried about Daniel Bryan not winning the Royal Rumble the last two years. Well, instead of bitching to the company they didn't book him to win some "fake accolade", maybe people should've bitched at Bryan for not being some pussified yes man who is too complacent to question anything. He would've gone out a lost to Hornswoggle at Wrestlemania in a 6 second match without any question, because he's that much of a pussified yes man and that's why he'll never be nothing but a flash in the pan. If he stood up and spoke out more, he would've been in a better spot. That is the attitude that is helping cause problems in the company, yeah, it's not the only problem the company has. However, if there is a roster full of Daniel Bryans, then there will be no new Hulk Hogans drawing in viewers for the next 15 years. Yes, you will have a lot of good matches with a roster full of Daniel Bryans, but you need guys like Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold, etc to draw in the fans, because they had egos and carried themselves like stars. The roster needs to have that sense of urgency, to compete against each other to get noticed for the top spots. I see more competition in UpUpDownDown than I do on TV. You don't see guys going out and trying to outdo one another to stand out in eyes of the booking team and management. Alternately, had WWE seen how monstrously over Bryan was and instead of trying to snuff out his overness to get the red carpet rolled out for Batista, actually pushed him without the audience having to hold a gun to their heads, there'd be no need for people to throw hissy fits. Everyone you mentioned except for Cena had some leverage over the company and viable competition that they could have gone over to instead. They were big stars who could easily bring their name value to someone other than Vince, and Vince bowed to keep them happy. Nobody can do that anymore, which is why Vince can goad Kofi into punching him, and said punch doesn't propel the guy to heights of superstardom. A backbone doesn't mean shit if you're not already someone the audience likes, simple as that. Which is the double-edged sword of this hypermasculine "show me you're a real man or I won't respect you" garbage; you'll just be an asshole for standing up if they don't already want to like you. If Vince doesn't see money in small guys, then acting like someone they aren't won't change his mind. If Daniel Bryan had quit and went down to Ring of Honour at a time when he was the most over man in the wrestling industry , it'd probably be a pretty decent boost for Ring of Honour and put more eyes on the product. But it wouldn't necessarily take any money away from Vince, it wouldn't make his competition have a shot at overtaking him. We know that even with what happened it's unlikely that Bryan will come back and be a top guy again, but even if he feels he should get the decently lengthy title reign his injury robbed him of, he has zero leverage to make that happen. Which is the main problem and why throwing around the term "pussified yes man" is so pointlessly loaded and empty. CM Punk, who had apparently earned Vince's respect by taking him by the balls to get what he want, still failed to get the one thing he truly wanted, on top of being told "no" to a lot of things that were given to people who Vince liked more. But Punk could never do anything better than leave, which he eventually did simply out of feeling defeated. The one guy in a generation for whom the stars aligned and who had the abrasive personality needed to push for what he wanted, and he was denied not only the big thing he felt was the logical high point of his career, but if you believe his stories about the video game cover, commercials, and endorsements, then he was also denied all of the little things that there's no reason not to have given him if he had been successful in the least. If CM Punk couldn't get what he wanted then how the hell is someone like Kofi Kingston, even after decking the boss, ever supposed to seize the opportunities he's never given? Blaming people for not clinging to the same outdated hypermasculinity Vince McMahon lives by rather than the countless faults of his product is to ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Dec 27, 2015 14:49:49 GMT -5
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Post by salvatoresincere on Dec 27, 2015 14:50:23 GMT -5
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I'm not sure that applies to a fake sport. It's Steven Segal 'my character never dies in any movie' level lunacy. It's not a fake sport, it's a profession in a multi-million dollar industry. We need more of that Steven Segal mentality in wrestling. Bret, Shawn, Austin, Taker, Rock, these guys didn't just follow orders, they built up incredible characters and protected their characters and made millions of dollars for themselves. Today's wrestlers may choose to just follow orders and read their scripts, and that's fine, but they'll never achieve the money and popularity of the previous generation by doing that. More people need to stand up and speak out, take chances, stop eating slaps from Stephanie McMahon, stop living in fear of being fired. Vince can't fire everyone. Even if he does, follow Punk's lead and go do something else, the world is a big place and life's too short for complacency.
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