Dukect
Don Corleone
A person who tries to make sense of the senseless
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Post by Dukect on Dec 29, 2015 2:41:52 GMT -5
This is a phenomenon known as the "Blue Wall of Silence," where good cops who witness wrongdoing or abuse by dirty cops are expected to stick up for their brothers and sisters in blue by not informing on them. And doing the right thing and exposing the dirty cops' wrongs is met with retribution, usually in the form of losing out on promotions, getting crap shifts, or getting outright blackballed. It's probably the most successful "Don't snitch" campaign ever. Which is ironic given the lamentations a lot of police other people in authority have when private citizens do the same thing. Blue wall culture is the single most toxic thing about police in the United States today and honestly, it's a huge reason why a lot of people, especially in minority communities, don't trust the police. I'm in law enforcement, corrections inside a prison's mental hospital. I know every day I walk in there (no joke) I say "I may not come out, because I'm outnumbered and unarmed, and I have restrictions on me that the inmates do not". I have been punched, spat on, had bodily fluids of every conceivable variety thrown at me, and yet...I have been in four physical alteractions in two years. Twice, I was attacked first, I had no choice but to respond with a restraint hold, once I dove inbetween two patients trying to kill each other and got tagged a few times for my efforts, and once was an attempt to put a deeply psychotic patient who said "I am going to kill all of you" and then attacked a co-worker in restraints. That's it, in two years. I don't look for a fight, I NEVER look for a fight, but we have those who are "cowboys" who want to go to war every day. I loathe them, I have turned them in, I have spoken up, and as a result I dn't get promoted. However, what I do get is that the majority of my co-workers (and in some cases the inmate/patient population) have backed me up when I've been gone after. I see police brutality in the same vein, the same mentality psychologically as "no snitchin", same as the public saying nothing about the mob running Chicago and New York for decades, it's "well, it's safer if..." rather than "do the right thing". It's all wrong, it's all horrible, and it's all senseless tragedy. I know that cops look at what I do as "not real police work" but I dont' get to deal with sweet old ladies or shop keepers that give me discounts, I get wall to wall felons for 40 hours a week for less money, and those same felons see me as the avatar of the cops th ey are mad at. Point is, if I can go to work and look a psychotic patient in the eye, say "I will treat you with the courtesy you deserve as a human being, I will not hold grudges" then so can Johnny Gun Slinger fresh out of the academy. The saddest part, I know many cops, they are good men and women, with honor. But they, like the kid in a hoodie who people run from even though he's just gong to school, are judged with a wide brush that is often unfair and overly harsh. This was a very good post and I applaud you on your service you deserve a better, safer, higher paid type of work my friend. I see the blue wall as another cartel and I don't like saying that as like you said there are many great police officers who do their job with integrity and honor. But, as a 31 year old black man this thing happens way to often and if you really get to know me I hate seeing race into things as I see it as well to be blunt lazy. Oh X happen because of Racism or white privilege and etc. That's not how I operate And if that get's me called as a sell out or coon fine I don't care I already don't like myself for a number of reasons but a self hating black person is not one of them. But these things keep happening and not only in here but the whole mess in Chicago just makes me think the boys and girls in blue want to take me out if I look at them funny and me being a 6'3 300+ pound black dude with some mental problems is not going to make that target on my back go away. Sorry I had to get that out of my chest if people don't want me to chime in this conversation I understand but I need to say my piece
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 12:42:38 GMT -5
Outrageous. I've taken some heat for coming down on the side of law enforcement when it comes to some of the other high profile shootings of young black men because I believed the stories were more complex. So trust me, when I'M out here going "What the hell is wrong with this jury?" there's got to be a few more people than normal disgusted by this. I think the broad issue is what can you really do about Juries who make decisions you don't agree with you know. I mean grand juries don't have to think guilt is in play before hand and they still pass the case up. It's not like it will be easy to pass a law preventing non racist/bad juror because it's all subjective. Obviously the solution here is to prevent the crime to happen in the first place which there is hope body camera's more training part comes in but I don't know...I think it's clear a lot of Americans' still lie on the pro police side which means passing legislation to overhaul the police or judicial system will bee extremely tough. The big issue with this case is that, from the beginning, the tone of the state prosecution was very pro-police. The thought is if they wanted the indictment, they could've easily presented the case in a different way to get it. Side note, it's darkly humorous that everyone seems to think this happened in Chicago.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Dec 29, 2015 14:20:35 GMT -5
So, the reasoning is apparently that "the perfect storm of human error" is what led to this incident. So basically, their justification for why the police shouldn't be held accountable for it is that the police f**ed up majorly. It just makes too much sense. And if you look at the video (which I have. Usually I refrain from it but in this case, I wanted to see if there was any possibility, even a remote one, that this kid ever looked like a genuine threat), it's freaking ridiculous.
They come rushing in their car, stop right in front of the kid like something out of an over-the-top action movie, the kid barely has time to realize what's going on and they immediately and I mean f***ing immediately shoot him. It is blatant that there was no effort made to do anything other than shoot him. There is not even a sign of him moving in any threatening manner on the video (and it's important to note he wasn't pointing the BB gun at anyone when the cops arrived, he was just standing around minding his own business). There is zero justification for it.
And no, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a cop to make sure the weapon he sees is real before opening fire. It's not unreasonable to expect ANYONE willing to kill another person to make sure that the killing is justified. If YOU intend to fire at someone, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that situation calls for it, not that of the person you're shooting.
We expect soldiers to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible and to refrain from launching an assault if there is a risk for innocent lives. And these people are literally surrounded by people who want to kill them, so why should it be any different for policemen, who work in much safer areas and rarely have to face genuine threats?
And here's the thing that really gets me about the old "he felt threatened" excuse whenever a cop murders a civilian for no reason. First of all, how does that justify killing someone? I don't care how threatened you feel, if you start the violence, you're the bad guy. Doubly so if you're a cop since your job is to prevent violence from occurring (or stop it if it has already started). If I went right up to someone, and shot them, would it be okay as long as I pinky-promise that I felt threatened? Of course not.
Second, if he felt that that 12-year-old child was a genuine threat... why exactly did he drive right up to him? Why did he exit his car right in front of him? Wouldn't it make more sense to stop further, where they could get cover and assess the situation? When people feel that someone is a threat, they don't tend to get as close as possible to them.
Third, how did he even have time to witness anything that would make him "feel threatened"? He stopped his car, opened the door and shot. I'm having a hard time believing there was anything in that short a time frame that could possibly make it a reasonable assumption that his life was in danger. And if you're willing to argue that he somehow did have time to see that (despite it being wrong, don't forget), then he sure had time to see whether it was a real gun or not. Also, don't cops carry non-lethal weapons these days? How come guns got drawn literally the instant he stopped the car?
And now, I want to say something that may be controversial but I genuinely feel is true, not to mention it ties back to the whole "it's unreasonable to expect cops to take three seconds to make sure they don't murder innocent children but unreasonable for them to gun someone down the instant they arrive at the scene" thing: cops aren't people. Not while on duty anyway. The life of the people around them should come before their own because their job is to protect them. Therefore, they should make sure that no innocent person is going to get hurt as a result of their actions.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't protect themselves, but if there is even a tiny doubt that they could injure or kill someone when there is no actual threat, then even if it means risking their own lives, they should check because while they are wearing that uniform, they are no longer people, they're guardians, and guardians must be willing to get hurt or die so others don't have to. Does that offend you? Does that make you mad? Can you not take it? Then don't become a cop because you're not suited for the job. Civilians pay your checks, you owe it to them to put their safety ahead of yours.
I know it's a cliché saying but it's a very accurate one: with great powers comes great responsibility. So if you can't take responsibility for your own choices and your own actions, then you should give up on that power. If you don't want to take risks, don't take a risky job. Again, we expect soldiers to do that, we expect them to come to terms with the fact that there is a high risk that they will die or suffer life-altering injuries when they're deployed, we even try to glorify war by saying they're "dying for their country". Why should it be any different for the people whose job it is to keep citizens safe?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: people should not have to feel LESS safe because there are cops around. Cops shouldn't be so corrupt and so emboldened that they can publicly make thinly-veiled threats and get away with it, they shouldn't be able to make explicitly racist comments and still keep a job that requires them to use violence. People shouldn't have to say that they're not surprised to find that the killer of their child is not going to suffer any repercussion because the killer is a policeman.
And while I suppose it is debatable whether the killing had racist motives or not (although to me it makes very little doubt), it is undeniable that there is a huge problem with racism in American police. I'm not saying such problems don't exist in my country but at least they're not killing children yet (and cops here are required to provide evidence that killing was justified in every case of self-defence shooting, even when it's obvious that it was because as it turns out, for every democracy other than the US, it is not considered unreasonable to expect cops to assess whether a situation actually requires lethal force).
It's not even a matter of opinion. It's a fact, objective and verifiable. Black people are in far more danger of getting killed by police than White people are. And they are far less likely to get justice for police brutality than Whites are. I mean, do you honestly believe such a decision would have been made if it were a White kid who was killed? Actually, that's a stupid question. The better question is: do you even think the cop would have shot if it were Goldilocks they saw playing around with a toy gun?
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wisdomwizard
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Post by wisdomwizard on Dec 29, 2015 14:40:34 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 14:41:32 GMT -5
True. But I think most people take umbrage not with a cop trying to make sure he's protected and safe against an armed attacker, but more the method in which they approached an allegedly armed individual, especially in an open carry state with no civilians in the armed individual's immediate area. The lawyer's comments are classic "soliders are heroes" logical fallacy. Like when someone questions whether or not a country should be involved in a war and someone's response is about how soldiers are heroes and we should support them.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Dec 29, 2015 14:58:49 GMT -5
The saddest part, I know many cops, they are good men and women, with honor. But they, like the kid in a hoodie who people run from even though he's just gong to school, are judged with a wide brush that is often unfair and overly harsh. The thing is, it's never about the individual, it's about the institution. The police force as an institution are viewed as racist and corrupt. It's not about the individual feelings of each individual employee of the force, and I don't think anybody who's serious about these issue assumes every single solitary cop is a racist. There are obviously good people who have every right to be upset when the idea comes up, but you can't really consider those hurt feelings beyond a basic understanding of why they might feel that why because to my eyes and a lot of other people it would be absolutely impossible to prove that the police force is a racist and corrupt to it's core. If a person is going to become part of the public serving face of such an institution it's the kind of thing they either have to try their best to change and/or come to some understanding about why vast swathes of the planet don't think it's at all unreasonable to think about their employer that way.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 29, 2015 15:09:21 GMT -5
I know I'm no expert and there's the whole split-second thinking thing, but couldn't he have just fired a warning shot? I thought that was the protocol, no?
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 29, 2015 15:16:20 GMT -5
Of course more white get killed by cops. They represent the majority of people the police interact with and their heavy-handed protocols lead to a number of them getting shot as well. It's just that certain minorities are disproportionately targeted (and don't even get me started on how police in this country treat the LGBQT community).
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Post by angryfan on Dec 29, 2015 16:09:15 GMT -5
The saddest part, I know many cops, they are good men and women, with honor. But they, like the kid in a hoodie who people run from even though he's just gong to school, are judged with a wide brush that is often unfair and overly harsh. The thing is, it's never about the individual, it's about the institution. The police force as an institution are viewed as racist and corrupt. It's not about the individual feelings of each individual employee of the force, and I don't think anybody who's serious about these issue assumes every single solitary cop is a racist. There are obviously good people who have every right to be upset when the idea comes up, but you can't really consider those hurt feelings beyond a basic understanding of why they might feel that why because to my eyes and a lot of other people it would be absolutely impossible to prove that the police force is a racist and corrupt to it's core. If a person is going to become part of the public serving face of such an institution it's the kind of thing they either have to try their best to change and/or come to some understanding about why vast swathes of the planet don't think it's at all unreasonable to think about their employer that way. Absolutely true. Look, like I said, I know guys in the system who are cowboys, who want a brawl every day, that's not me. I go to the higher ups, but first I go to them and say "Do you realize you're putting a target on my back by being a jackass?", and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. THe reason is simple, a person, an individual, is gong to react however they choose, they are going to be driven by their own personal code. If that person gets into a position of authority, they will influence those beneath them. Sad thing is, I live din the worst part of Cincinnati, it was absolutely gang infested, and the cops often didn't go there. I saw the SAME thing with no police presence. It was "I run this area, do what I say" and no one talked because someone who had garnered perceived authority wanted it that way. It's all systemic, and at the end of the day you have people who, in their individual lives, feel somewhat powerless when it comes to those above them, and they do whatever they feel they must to appease those above them or around them. Sorry, rambling, but can't help it.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Dec 29, 2015 16:15:55 GMT -5
Of course more white get killed by cops. They represent the majority of people the police interact with and their heavy-handed protocols lead to a number of them getting shot as well. It's just that certain minorities are disproportionately targeted (and don't even get me started on how police in this country treat the LGBQT community). And we won't even talk about how the mentally ill are treated in general in this country. Which brings us back to how spectacularly the police failed at procedure here. Let's say Tamir Rice was an adult. And, just for the hell of it, let's say he had a real gun. Now, you have a report about a young male talking to himself, walking back and forth in the park, waving around a gun and pointing it at random. If that were the case, race might have not even been a factor because we have an unofficial "shoot first, serve-and-protect never" policy regarding the mentally ill in this country.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 17:00:09 GMT -5
I know I'm no expert and there's the whole split-second thinking thing, but couldn't he have just fired a warning shot? I thought that was the protocol, no? No. "Warning shots" aren't really a thing. If a gun even gets AIMED at someone it's because it's the stage right before killing them.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 29, 2015 17:12:08 GMT -5
Of course more white get killed by cops. They represent the majority of people the police interact with and their heavy-handed protocols lead to a number of them getting shot as well. It's just that certain minorities are disproportionately targeted (and don't even get me started on how police in this country treat the LGBQT community). The article even states that 5 blacks per million are killed by police compared to just 2 whites and hispanics per million.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 29, 2015 18:33:16 GMT -5
At this stage I can't comprehend the feelings of the black community on this issue; it's 2015, and yet this aspect of things is barely any better than it's been at any point in recent history.
We're lying to ourselves if we don't acknowledge the enormous specter of racism that's involved in these cases. The catch is, however, that it's not the type of racism that we're all comfortable acknowledging; it's not redneck caricatures wearing white hoods or saluting Hitler, it's men and women who could easily be any of our brothers, sisters, relatives, or best friends. Racism doesn't simply mean "goes out of his/her way to hurt/attack people of another race and actively believes in white supremacy", it's a matter that poisons large institutions and legal structures that wind up shaping the way we lead our daily lives. When people say "we're all (meaning white people) a little racist", it's wrong to mean it like "all white people have bad feelings about other groups", but where it WOULD be reasonable to say that is if you're acknowledging that just by living our daily lives in modern America, we're all taking part, albeit not-actively and indirectly, in a racist system, a system that clearly doesn't prioritize certain people based on their appearance or background.
Sadly, well over a century of housing and neighborhood planning policies have created a situation in America where black and white are separated from one another, to a degree where most white people actually don't directly know any black people, let alone have friendships with any. It's created a situation where poverty is highly concentrated in minority neighborhoods, and where the only interaction many minority neighborhoods have with the police are ones where the cops stop said minority group from entering a white neighborhood; yet when there are murders, shootings, and robberies in the poorer neighborhoods, all too often the cops are nowhere to be found.
This hurts, because I have family and best friends in blue, but I have black friends, as well, and the anger and frustration I hear from them is very genuine, and comes from a place of real experience. We can't keep this going; the only way we can address these issues and stop them from springing up so often is if all of us in American society, and white society specifically, take the step of asking "Hey, how come my neighborhood is so homogenous?", or saying "it's ridiculous that the black and minority students are stuck in the poor schools/neighborhoods/etc., I want to learn how this happened and ask for action to fix the matter."
Sadly, so long as we in positions of, yes, I'll say it, privilege get to sit back and not see these things firsthand, we tend to get very comfortable with the way things are; not actively and maliciously racist, but taking part in a racist system, nonetheless. Really crappy thing to acknowledge, but necessary.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 29, 2015 18:41:38 GMT -5
One big problem I see is that in America, as far as I'm aware, law enforcement officials are elected. Police chiefs, district prosecutors, even judges. Doing that will create a situation where to gain public support they will play up the "we are tough on crime. Zero tolerance. Take no shit. Don't mess with us!" element, which when transmitted to rank and file beat cops, will increase aggression IMO.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 29, 2015 18:49:37 GMT -5
One big problem I see is that in America, as far as I'm aware, law enforcement officials are elected. Police chiefs, district prosecutors, even judges. Doing that will create a situation where to gain public support they will play up the "we are tough on crime. Zero tolerance. Take no shit. Don't mess with us!" element, which when transmitted to rank and file beat cops, will increase aggression IMO. One of the courses I had to work with was ethics in my undergrad work, and have seen it in practical application. Point blank, we use the term slippery slope because it is. It never ever starts with "I'm gonna just beat on people and go guns blazing". You've got the mission-oriented "us against them" officers, they do exist, who see the world in black and white (not race, but us against them crime stuff). You also have the "I want to help" types who start out by being by the book but fair, and while not all become corrupt, the fact is it can happen there too. Think of it this way, you do the job, and suddenly a store wants to give you a discount, or free lunch, and while it's "no big deal", over time it can lead to "Hey, I deserve this" and it's suddenly, "I'm special". Then, a situation arises where you're confronted, or you are surrounded by the "us against them" mentality, you combine the two, and what can happen? Either "I'm looking the other way because..." or "I can do what I want because..."
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Dec 29, 2015 19:19:54 GMT -5
No it wouldn't, especially in a location where, even if it were real, carrying such a fire arm is legally permitted.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 29, 2015 19:31:00 GMT -5
No it wouldn't, especially in a location where, even if it were real, carrying such a fire arm is legally permitted. Eh, depends. Heres' the thing, if I'm out and about, and someone has a gun in their waisteband, I'm cautious. I'm not going to go Dirty Harry, but I'm at elast aware "hey, that may bea real gun". It comes up in my direction, and I have a few options, If I"m close enough, I can try to disarm them, I can run, but if I'm not in arms reach and they are bringing a gun up to point at me, and I'ma cop, I'm drawing something. Hoefully taser, of course, but at some point, you can't just say, "let them pull the trigger so I know if it's real".
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Post by Cyno on Dec 29, 2015 19:37:58 GMT -5
One big problem I see is that in America, as far as I'm aware, law enforcement officials are elected. Police chiefs, district prosecutors, even judges. Doing that will create a situation where to gain public support they will play up the "we are tough on crime. Zero tolerance. Take no shit. Don't mess with us!" element, which when transmitted to rank and file beat cops, will increase aggression IMO. It depends a lot on state and county. Like here in my part of New Jersey, judges and DA's are just appointed. And I don't think I've ever heard of municipal police chiefs being elected, though county sheriffs are. But yeah, it does happen and it is really bad, especially for judges, who are supposed to come into criminal cases as an objective and fair official of the law, not as someone who has to seek re-election to keep their job. It's a huge conflict of interest when doing what's right and doing what's popular clash. John Oliver, as he is wont to do, covered it well enough on his show. The American criminal justice system and its complete brokenness has been a subject of many of his shows and judges facing elections were one of the facets of said broken justice system.
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wisdomwizard
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Post by wisdomwizard on Dec 29, 2015 19:42:41 GMT -5
What exactly is the best alternative elections for judges and DAs, though?
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Dec 29, 2015 19:44:43 GMT -5
No it wouldn't, especially in a location where, even if it were real, carrying such a fire arm is legally permitted. Eh, depends. Heres' the thing, if I'm out and about, and someone has a gun in their waisteband, I'm cautious. I'm not going to go Dirty Harry, but I'm at elast aware "hey, that may bea real gun". It comes up in my direction, and I have a few options, If I"m close enough, I can try to disarm them, I can run, but if I'm not in arms reach and they are bringing a gun up to point at me, and I'ma cop, I'm drawing something. Hoefully taser, of course, but at some point, you can't just say, "let them pull the trigger so I know if it's real". But you aren't going to drive up to someone who may have a gun and start firing immediately.
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