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Post by CT LFC Fan on Jun 5, 2016 14:54:30 GMT -5
For those that don't know at Summerslam 1999 Triple H was due to go over Austin and win the belt. Plans were all set up for it then Austin said No. So Foley won it only to drop it the next night on Raw to Trips. While the Rock is back in the mid card with Billy Gunn ?! Now Trips ( deservedly) gets roasted for his political games and the Reign of terror but Austin seems to get let off for this blatant politicking. Although this sounds harsh but him taking time out for his neck injury actually worked out for the better for the company as the Rock became the Top guy and as big as Austin as one of the top draws off all time while Trips became the top Heel and won Wrestler of the year. Yet even so they couldn't have know that the time so are fans hypocritical with giving Austin an easy ride on this ? A million times, this. I don't need to say that Austin figuratively got away with murder as he literally got away with assault and battery. Not just once either. The "what" chants are awful. In his prime, Austin put fewer people over than Triple Haitch. He realizes pro wrestling is scripted, yet took his ball and went home instead of losing to Brock Lesnar at RAW. Incidentally, in a "real" fight, not even Mama Austin thinks he could win. He was an awesome performer from a little before mania 12 until a year or so after 14. The rest of his work was not top shelf. If Benoit can't get a mention for his extracurricular activities, I don't know why Austin keeps getting trotted out there.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jun 5, 2016 15:07:06 GMT -5
Austin didn't put people over a lot, that's not arguable. Austin, however didn't bury people or ruin careers, and gimmicks like Trips did. I think that's why he is easier to overlook. I mean in your example, it helped put Foley over AND didn't make the face ref Ventura look like an idiot or heel in his home state, so for as much bad as his politics did there was some good and logic to it. WHAT! is annoying but it's nothing at all like pointing out someone is off the juice or that their character accent was fake just to be the cool guy.
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Post by Nickybojelais on Jun 5, 2016 15:08:03 GMT -5
That's ridiculous when it comes to the Rock - dude used to put everyone over. More the screentime than the putting people over part when it came to the Rock. Though some did complain about him not putting people over anyway. Only wrestling fans would complain about the most entertaining and charismatic guy getting a significant amount of screen time. "We want more Meat and Mideon on our screens damn it!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 15:30:31 GMT -5
He realizes pro wrestling is scripted, yet took his ball and went home instead of losing to Brock Lesnar at RAW. Incidentally, in a "real" fight, not even Mama Austin thinks he could win. A guy in Austin's position shouldn't lose a match clean on Raw with zero build, even to Lesnar. Leaving and staying home for months was obviously extreme but refusing to lose that match was justified. I don't think anyone credible doubts he would have lost to Lesnar if there was a proper build up to the match.
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Post by mauled on Jun 5, 2016 15:52:24 GMT -5
For those that don't know at Summerslam 1999 Triple H was due to go over Austin and win the belt. Plans were all set up for it then Austin said No. So Foley won it only to drop it the next night on Raw to Trips. While the Rock is back in the mid card with Billy Gunn ?! Now Trips ( deservedly) gets roasted for his political games and the Reign of terror but Austin seems to get let off for this blatant politicking. Although this sounds harsh but him taking time out for his neck injury actually worked out for the better for the company as the Rock became the Top guy and as big as Austin as one of the top draws off all time while Trips became the top Heel and won Wrestler of the year. Yet even so they couldn't have know that the time so are fans hypocritical with giving Austin an easy ride on this ? A million times, this. I don't need to say that Austin figuratively got away with murder as he literally got away with assault and battery. Not just once either. The "what" chants are awful. In his prime, Austin put fewer people over than Triple Haitch. He realizes pro wrestling is scripted, yet took his ball and went home instead of losing to Brock Lesnar at RAW. Incidentally, in a "real" fight, not even Mama Austin thinks he could win. He was an awesome performer from a little before mania 12 until a year or so after 14. The rest of his work was not top shelf. If Benoit can't get a mention for his extracurricular activities, I don't know why Austin keeps getting trotted out there. I half agree with you on his wrestling ability. While Austin clearly wasn't the pure wrestler he was before, by WM14. That one can't be blamed on him, as it was down to his broken neck. He simply couldn't be the same guy. As for burying guys, although Austin was bad, Trips promo on Booker that his kind!, "ie black people" don't make good champions, then actually going out and proving it, still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to this day. For me it's still the worst burial of the lot. The only 3,guys I can think off who were Top guys who did put people over, were Savage/Bret and the Rock. Also give a nod to HBK after he came back from injury in 02. But otherwise I can't think of any.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 15:55:58 GMT -5
As said Ventura was a factor but simply Austin felt HHH wasn't ready and arguably he had a point as HHH first few title reigns were boring. Once Foley and Rock had given HHH memorable main event matches Austin did put HHH over at 2001 No Way Out.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 5, 2016 16:16:03 GMT -5
I have more of an issue with Austin beating Kane clean a day after he won the title and beating Big Show clean pretty early in his WWE career. Both were booked and seen as unstoppable monsters yet Austin beat them without much trouble, if I'm remembering correctly. Even as a big Austin fan I was pissed they only gave Kane a 1 day run. Can't believe it took until 2010 for him to get another, and by then I didn't care. The KOTR loss was always supposed to lead to Austin getting the belt back on Raw the next night. It was set up to pop a rating and to get fans to turn from Nitro to Raw.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jun 5, 2016 16:32:30 GMT -5
because it mostly only affected Jeff Jarrett and nobody cares. This- unlike a lot of, say, HHH's graveyard in the Reign of Terror, most of the people who Austin's politics in 1999 shut down were, in retrospect, the RIGHT decision. Jarrett got shut down because Austin hated him...well, and also because in 1999, Jeff Jarrett couldn't get heat if the arena was on fire, he was so not over he might as well have been under, he had to start beating up women just for people to even remotely give a crap about him...and when he jumped to WCW and was a main eventer, that was part of the move that killed the company. In retrospect- even if Jarrett was a top star in TNA...you can't really blame Austin for not wanting to work with him in 1999. Austin played politics to kill Billy Gunn's main event run in 1999...a year later, he's proven to be terrible and quickly falls down the card when WWE has actual "good" workers in the company...which makes it about the same as, say, Orton or Cena getting Mr.Kennedy fired in 2009 (yeah, it was a dick move and politics...but watch TNA when they made Mr.Anderson a top star, and absolutely no one can blame them for this.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 16:36:55 GMT -5
Also it wouldn't make sense to have Austin lose a lot. That's like saying Hogan should job a lot in 84-87. You don't kill the momentum of your biggest cash cow.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jun 5, 2016 16:39:52 GMT -5
Also it wouldn't make sense to have Austin lose a lot. That's like saying Hogan should job a lot in 84-87. You don't kill the momentum of your biggest cash cow. Current creative would disagree with you.
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Post by mauled on Jun 5, 2016 16:54:08 GMT -5
Also it wouldn't make sense to have Austin lose a lot. That's like saying Hogan should job a lot in 84-87. You don't kill the momentum of your biggest cash cow. It's a different time period but Trips was being pushed as the monster Heel at the time. Having the bad guy win a match helps the feud you do with them and people will pay to see Austin finally beat him. Look at Hogan/Flair feud in WCW as a comparison. That just had Hogan squashing Flair left and right so a potential huge (probably never would have been in reality) feud just fizzeled out as Flair was never remotely seen as a threat to Hogan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 17:56:49 GMT -5
Also it wouldn't make sense to have Austin lose a lot. That's like saying Hogan should job a lot in 84-87. You don't kill the momentum of your biggest cash cow. It's a different time period but Trips was being pushed as the monster Heel at the time. Having the bad guy win a match helps the feud you do with them and people will pay to see Austin finally beat him. Look at Hogan/Flair feud in WCW as a comparison. That just had Hogan squashing Flair left and right so a potential huge (probably never would have been in reality) feud just fizzeled out as Flair was never remotely seen as a threat to Hogan. And he did in 2001. His return in 2000 was a continuous extension of the 1999 feud that ended abruptly due to injury. Austin taking the fall in 1999 from HHH would kill some momentum and shorten the length of a planned long term feud. Plus Austin was pinned by Foley. He was the perfect transitional guy and HHH beat the guy who beat Austin. HHH'S heat with Austin was somewhat justified in his sense.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 5, 2016 18:25:56 GMT -5
I think Austin's politics is being a bit overhyped here. Austin was at least fairly straight forward about it and said "No, I don't think Jarrett is a main event guy." Ditto Billy Gunn, who had no real heat as a singles guy. This wasn't a case of Austin being duplicitous to protect his spot a la HHH. This was just his honest opinion. Further, the HHH SS 99 thing is overblown. In Foley's book he discusses the match and largely attributed his involvement to Austin's injuries (which forced him out by year's end) and Ventura being hesitant to raise a heel's hand. Austin did do a fairly shocking clean job there to Mankind, and also he did actually put over HHH at No Mercy 1999, which was his last PPV before the injury.
I hate to say this but as a wrestler there are reasons why people look at Austin with more credibility than The Rock, and it's largely because Austin wouldn't simply job to anyone under the sun.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Jun 8, 2016 15:33:56 GMT -5
I say this as a big fan of Austin anyway but he definitely gets away with a lot of stuff from wrestling fans that other guys get criticised for. Austin and HBK both get way, way, way, WAY too many free passes on their bullshit. It depends what you mean by 'giving a free pass'. For example, Austin attacking his wife was totally out of line. The guy deserved the criminal record and divorce etc. Do I still like his matches? Yes, and I still find his segments entertaining. Is that really a free pass though?
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 8, 2016 15:46:57 GMT -5
And when it came to fans from my memory and perspective some time starting in the summer of 1999 and then with him being off for most or if not all of 2000 the bloom came of the rose a little bit. Yeah he was still really over but once Rock turned face and the build of face Rock vs heel HHH started I kinda moved past Stone Cold in what interested me
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 8, 2016 17:32:46 GMT -5
Except that's not what happened? Austin was going to drop the belt to HHH but the match was in Minnesota with Jesse Ventura as guest referee. Since Ventura was the Governor of Minnesota at the time,he didn't want to be seen raising the hand of a heel. So Foley won it only to drop it to HHH the next night. It was Ventura's demand , not Austin's. Hasn't Austin himself semi confirmed that's what happened though ? Not sure about Austin, but Ventura spoke at length about it on his podcast and pretty much said the same thing as kendrickisking's post verbatim. Austin has confirmed that he politicked quite a bit during his time on top, though, and that the paranoid character he played when he turned heel was based on what he was actually like once he'd gotten to main event status.
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Jun 8, 2016 18:21:04 GMT -5
Aside from the Jesse thing, HHH wasn't ready for the main event in summer of 1999. He didn't become that guy until the wedding with Steph & the series with Foley in the winter of 2000
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Post by abjordans on Jun 8, 2016 20:02:53 GMT -5
Because it was freakin' Stone Cold Steve Austin?
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Post by -Lithium- on Jun 8, 2016 20:07:17 GMT -5
Austin in 98/99 was like Cena in 06-07 or the present day Samoan Superman. Needing brawls to have a good match and being ridiculously strong. That shit with him beating Kane clean the next was f***ing ridiculous. The difference is he was embraced by the fans rather than hated so they could justify it.
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Post by thegame415 on Jun 8, 2016 20:12:25 GMT -5
Because the fanbase was mostly casuals who really didn't care about terms like going over and workrate.
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