Survivor Series 1997 Screwjob - Was there any other way?

[auph10imitated]

I know we have about a million of these threads, for the past 6,890 years but can you think of any other ideas creatively to have changed the outcome of this match given the timelines and facts of what happened, I know the proposed idea was a run in and for it end in a DQ, but Bret was refusing to lose to Shawn in any way shape or form in Canada, but the fact of the matter is the belt HAD to come off Bret Hart that night, no two ways about it.

I think one way that might have possibly worked, however it may have been an idea slightly ahead of its time as this being the start of the Attitude Era, swerves such as this were somewhat new. But why not add The Undertaker to the match to make it a Triple Threat Match. He has history with both men over the past few months, he hasn't been seen since Hell in a Cell the previous month where Shawn beat him, he wasn't on the card (although he did return to RAW the night following Survivor Series) he is one of the names that Bret said he would drop the belt too other than Shawn, I don't think the fans would be too pissed off with his inclusion as he was super over and technically the only babyface in the match.

The outcome being you have a new champion in Undertaker without Bret doing a job to Shawn, Bret can then work the last month of his contract. (He was still under contract through the Dec PPV) with the Triple Threat gimmick being brand new it would be quite ground breaking (I think there was only two Triple Threats on TV/PPV prior to this)

The only down falls would be getting Bret & Shawn to agree, I guess Bret would have been of the idea with all the build it should stay a singles match (but really when you're in this position you have to compromise somewhere) and also kayfabing the announcement, because you dont have any TV prior to do it since all this shiz happened in the week leading up to the PPV. I guess you could do a segment on the Free For All where Taker returns during a Michaels promo and then that leads to the set up of adding him, you could have Bret bitching and whining during the show about the odds being stacked against him. I think its a scenario they could have made work, but I guess again as its in hindsight, it is more of a later Attitude Era idea than a late 1997 idea.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Triple threat with Taker, Mankind or Shamrock, lose the belt on Raw in the month or so they had left on the contract, as much as Vince loves to paint himself as the one painted into a corner by Bret, they were the ones who did it to themselves by proceeding with a feud that would never end well while there are creative control clauses in play. The moment Vince told him to go negotiate with WCW, they should have had him lose the belt to Taker, instead they were hell bent on having a guy with creative control job to the guy who'd spent the past two years aggravating him and skipping out on the company when asked to put others over.

[auph10imitated]

That was the issue though, he couldnt have Bret as champion past Survivor Series. He had to have him drop it that night because word had already gotten out on the internet in the days before SS, so he couldnt risk Eric Bischoff making an announcement on the Nitro following Survivor Series, how does it look when your competition announces live on air that they have signed your World Champion while he is stood holding the belt right there on your show. That was the issue, that's why it had to come off Bret the night before at SS. That announcement would have been far more symbolic than Madusa dropping the Womens Title in a trash can IMO.

But yes, he shouldnt have proceeded with the feud.match, and he should have had him drop it sooner, but I think at first he genuinely did want Bret to stay. I dont think it was until late October that they began negotiating though.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Aug 18, 2016 6:56:30 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

That was the issue though, he couldnt have Bret as champion past Survivor Series. He had to have him drop it that night because word had already gotten out on the internet in the days before SS, so he couldnt risk Eric Bischoff making an announcement on the Nitro following Survivor Series, how does it look when your competition announces live on air that they have signed your World Champion while he is stood holding the belt right there on your show. That was the issue, that's why it had to come off Bret that night. That announcement would have been far more symbolic than Madusa dropping the Womens Title in a trash can IMO.

Bischoff had two Nitros in the period between Bret entering negotiations with them and Montreal to crow about having signed the current WWF champion so I don't buy that as a justification, heck, Montreal left Bret in a position to leave the company in a position to claim he's the real WWF champion, much like Flair in 1991-2.

[auph10imitated]

Bret didnt give notice and sign with WCW until November 1st (meaning one Nitro on the 3rd) and even then there was a written agreement in place with all parties that word couldn't be leaked until November 10th in order to protect the SS PPV. Then during the week thats when all of the ideas for the finsh were discussed. In the end word got out anyway later that week. But Bischoff couldnt say anything until the 10th either way as he was in a written agreement not too.

Im not picking one side over the other or justifying anyone, I was just trying to figure out if anyone had any other creative ideas in getting a belt off under all of those circumstances that made all parties happy

[lws]

Bret wins by DQ, they keep brawling, eventually Bret excessively beats the shit out of Shawn with chairs and weapons and etc, so much so the referee reverses the decision, so then Bret beats up the referee, lots of officials, etc, Vince comes out, strips him of the title, and debuts YOOUUUUUUREEEE FIRED.

There's no champion, so they have a tournament or at least some real intrigue to fight Starrcade 97. The idea of the boss coming out and firing a top wrestler might seem crazy for the time, and Bret might veto it. But if he says yes, I think it totally works, and is almost as effective as Bret screwed Bret in making Vince the world's biggest heel. Hell, he can still do Bret screwed Bret the next night.

I've actually never thought of this before and came up with it in 5 minutes. I'm surprised how well I think it works.

[OGBoardPoster2005]

WWF really tried pushing Bret/Shawn II throughtout 96/97. It was their money feud in Vince's eyes. It needed to happen. Fate played a role. We didn't get it at Wrestlemania 13 bc of Shawn walking out, we didn't get it at King of the Ring 1997 bc Bret was injured. Story progression pushed it towards Survivor Series. Bret should have just put his personal beef with Shawn aside.

I wish Bret stayed through WM and we would have Bret beating Shawn at SS, Shawn beating Bret at the Rumble, and a Bret vs Shawn vs Austin match at Wrestlemania where he tears his way through the Hart Foundation and DX to win the belt. Have a Bret/Shawn blowoff shortly after.

[segaz]

Aug 18, 2016 6:56:30 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

That was the issue though, he couldnt have Bret as champion past Survivor Series. He had to have him drop it that night because word had already gotten out on the internet in the days before SS, so he couldnt risk Eric Bischoff making an announcement on the Nitro following Survivor Series, how does it look when your competition announces live on air that they have signed your World Champion while he is stood holding the belt right there on your show. That was the issue, that's why it had to come off Bret the night before at SS. That announcement would have been far more symbolic than Madusa dropping the Womens Title in a trash can IMO.

But yes, he shouldnt have proceeded with the feud.match, and he should have had him drop it sooner, but I think at first he genuinely did want Bret to stay. I dont think it was until late October that they began negotiating though.

When Madusa did it, WCW were hit with a huge lawsuit. There's no way Bishoff would have risked an even bigger one.

[auph10imitated]

Aug 18, 2016 8:13:04 GMT -5 lws said:

Bret wins by DQ, they keep brawling, eventually Bret excessively beats the shit out of Shawn with chairs and weapons and etc, so much so the referee reverses the decision, so then Bret beats up the referee, lots of officials, etc, Vince comes out, strips him of the title, and debuts YOOUUUUUUREEEE FIRED.

There's no champion, so they have a tournament or at least some real intrigue to fight Starrcade 97. The idea of the boss coming out and firing a top wrestler might seem crazy for the time, and Bret might veto it. But if he says yes, I think it totally works, and is almost as effective as Bret screwed Bret in making Vince the world's biggest heel. Hell, he can still do Bret screwed Bret the next night.

I've actually never thought of this before and came up with it in 5 minutes. I'm surprised how well I think it works.

That does sound like an interesting way of doing it, tweaking it slightly would be if they did a double pin like Shawn/Bulldog in 1996, but it might have been too soon after. You two referees debating the winner, this leads to a full scale brawl between DX & The Hart Foundation while Vince is stood at ringside watching, he gets on the mic and declares the championship vacant. That way there is no champion going into RAW. If Eric has announced Bret's signing at that point (which he will have at the top of the first hour) you could have a showdown between Bret & Vince (which is similar to the earlier showdown they had where Vince pulled Bret's top over his head weeks earlier) over Bret being a traitor and you can either Vince fire him, or Bret walk. This all is dependant on Bret agreeing as it may make him look weak but if he gets to punch Vince out then it might keep him strong.

I think either way at this point, if Eric was going to announce it on that Nitro there is no way they could have used Bret any further than this RAW.

I think vacating the title there and then at Survivor Series could have solved a massive problem.

[auph10imitated]

Aug 18, 2016 9:16:21 GMT -5 segaz said:

Aug 18, 2016 6:56:30 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

That was the issue though, he couldnt have Bret as champion past Survivor Series. He had to have him drop it that night because word had already gotten out on the internet in the days before SS, so he couldnt risk Eric Bischoff making an announcement on the Nitro following Survivor Series, how does it look when your competition announces live on air that they have signed your World Champion while he is stood holding the belt right there on your show. That was the issue, that's why it had to come off Bret the night before at SS. That announcement would have been far more symbolic than Madusa dropping the Womens Title in a trash can IMO.

But yes, he shouldnt have proceeded with the feud.match, and he should have had him drop it sooner, but I think at first he genuinely did want Bret to stay. I dont think it was until late October that they began negotiating though.

When Madusa did it, WCW were hit with a huge lawsuit. There's no way Bishoff would have risked an even bigger one.

Lawsuit for what though? He has signed him, so he has every right to announce it as such.. it was going to break as a news story anyways. They signed an agreement not to announce anything until the night after the Survivor Series, after that Bischoff could do as he pleased in what he says on air.

[Milkman Norm]

Aug 18, 2016 9:21:16 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

Aug 18, 2016 9:16:21 GMT -5 segaz said:

When Madusa did it, WCW were hit with a huge lawsuit. There's no way Bishoff would have risked an even bigger one.

Lawsuit for what though? He has signed him, so he has every right to announce it as such.. it was going to break as a news story anyways. They signed an agreement not to announce anything until the night after the Survivor Series, after that Bischoff could do as he pleased in what he says on air.

He could announce it. Bret could not show up with the belt. The belt was an IP of Titan Spors that at no time the current holder had any claim of ownership.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Aug 18, 2016 8:13:04 GMT -5 lws said:

Bret wins by DQ, they keep brawling, eventually Bret excessively beats the shit out of Shawn with chairs and weapons and etc, so much so the referee reverses the decision, so then Bret beats up the referee, lots of officials, etc, Vince comes out, strips him of the title, and debuts YOOUUUUUUREEEE FIRED.

There's no champion, so they have a tournament or at least some real intrigue to fight Starrcade 97. The idea of the boss coming out and firing a top wrestler might seem crazy for the time, and Bret might veto it. But if he says yes, I think it totally works, and is almost as effective as Bret screwed Bret in making Vince the world's biggest heel. Hell, he can still do Bret screwed Bret the next night.

I've actually never thought of this before and came up with it in 5 minutes. I'm surprised how well I think it works.

That is actually an amazing idea. Gets heat for Vince in Canada, gets Bret over, gets Shawn over as a heel.

[auph10imitated]

Aug 18, 2016 9:47:07 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

Aug 18, 2016 9:21:16 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

Lawsuit for what though? He has signed him, so he has every right to announce it as such.. it was going to break as a news story anyways. They signed an agreement not to announce anything until the night after the Survivor Series, after that Bischoff could do as he pleased in what he says on air.

He could announce it. Bret could not show up with the belt. The belt was an IP of Titan Spors that at no time the current holder had any claim of ownership.

Yeah I know, The title belt in question was never the issue, Bret was unable to show up even if he wanted too, he was under contract until December and that's were so many people are mistaken and get things confused. It is the fact he could announce signing the WWF World Champion live on Nitro, while the WWF are sat there like lame ducks twiddling their thumbs. Really how would you even deal with that?

[Nickybojelais]

Somebody (probably The Undertaker) makes Bret realise he is acting like a whiny diva, and in an epiphany moment 'The Hitman' decides to drop his fake sports belt in the time honoured tradition.

[marvelocity]

The argument I never understood was the fear that if Bret was the champ, he would take the actual belt to Nitro. I mean, he has to set it down for his match, just send Brisco or someone to the timekeeper while Bret and Shawn are brawling in the crowd, have him bring it to the back and send it to Vince's hotel room. It's his last night with the company anyway, who cares if the belt is there at the end of the night. No one would have ever noticed.

Just reading this thread, I see at least three plausible outcomes. The problem was the three egos involved (four if you count Hunter). No one wanted to budge and be the adult. Ultimately if no one could agree, they should have done what Vince said, because it's his company and he stood to lose the most if WCW did something shady.

The sad thing is, if Bret could have just stuck it out a bit longer, Shawn would have been retired and he could have finished out his career the way he wanted.

[Porky's Butthole]

Aug 19, 2016 10:37:16 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

Somebody (probably The Undertaker) makes Bret realise he is acting like a whiny diva, and in an epiphany moment 'The Hitman' decides to drop his fake sports belt in the time honoured tradition.

f***ING. THANK. YOU.


I'm a big Bret fan, but he was a little bitch with the whole thing. Refusing to lose in Montreal? What if..let's say...Daniel Bryan ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to lose the title in Nashville? Same f***ing thing.

[Push R Truth]

Aug 19, 2016 10:37:16 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

Somebody (probably The Undertaker) makes Bret realise he is acting like a whiny diva, and in an epiphany moment 'The Hitman' decides to drop his fake sports belt in the time honoured tradition.

I like this guy.


Every scenario leads back to Bret saying "nope."

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Aug 19, 2016 10:37:16 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

Somebody (probably The Undertaker) makes Bret realise he is acting like a whiny diva, and in an epiphany moment 'The Hitman' decides to drop his fake sports belt in the time honoured tradition.

Why is 'Time Honoured Tradition' only important when someone was being asked to lose to Shawn? The guy wiped his backside with 'time honoured tradition' whenever he was booked to lose to anyone outside of his circle of friends.

Vince gave Bret a creative control clause where he could pick the manner of his departure then reneged when he realised that meant he couldn't force Bret to job to someone who'd been flat out abusive toward him and his family, just like he has tried to do every time a contract doesn't favour him. Trying to sic the Undertaker (Someone who sided with Bret over Montreal and whose actual fighting ability is largely keyfabe) on Bret in an attempt to physically bully him into surrendering a legal right would have ended in a lawsuit with Bret vanishing from TV while champion and going to WCW while suing the WWF for breach of contract.

[Nickybojelais]

Aug 19, 2016 13:44:22 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

Aug 19, 2016 10:37:16 GMT -5 Nickybojelais said:

Somebody (probably The Undertaker) makes Bret realise he is acting like a whiny diva, and in an epiphany moment 'The Hitman' decides to drop his fake sports belt in the time honoured tradition.

Why is 'Time Honoured Tradition' only important when someone was being asked to lose to Shawn? The guy wiped his backside with 'time honoured tradition' whenever he was booked to lose to anyone outside of his circle of friends.

Vince gave Bret a creative control clause where he could pick the manner of his departure then reneged when he realised that meant he couldn't force Bret to job to someone who'd been flat out abusive toward him and his family, just like he has tried to do every time a contract doesn't favour him. Trying to sic the Undertaker (Someone who sided with Bret over Montreal and whose actual fighting ability is largely keyfabe) on Bret in an attempt to physically bully him into surrendering a legal right would have ended in a lawsuit with Bret vanishing from TV while champion and going to WCW while suing the WWF for breach of contract.

When you leave a company, you leave on your back putting over the guy who is going to continue working in that company. When it came for Michaels to retire, he went out losing to The Undertaker, so Michaels fulfilled that obligation.

[saintpat]

Bret screwed Bret.

And there's no 'better way' this could have been done -- it was the perfect storm, left everyone going forward in a better position (although not planned to work out that way): Bret enters WCW with way more publicity and buzz, Shawn has more heat, Mr. McMahon character is born. It didn't work out better for Bret necessarily, but that has more to do with poor booking in the company he left for and Bret's own growing disinterest -- seems like he believed his gimmick too much, and that "it made no sense for me to lose" theme runs throughout his book. This time it made sense for him to lose, it was the right thing to do and it shouldn't matter if he liked the guy he was asked to lose to or not -- that was who WWF chose to be next champ, end of story.