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Post by angryfan on Sept 11, 2016 16:22:07 GMT -5
In the Kevin Owens thread, I used an analogy, but it applies here, emotional investment. Did I know Punk would get beaten badly? No, but I had a strong suspension. At the end of the day, he's a guy a year younger than me with a year of training but no practical experience in MMA, taking on someone, hand-picked or not, some 14 years his junior who DOES have practical experience.
As for the vitriol going both ways, here's my thought. Yes, we as wrestling fans can and do get hammered often with "why do you care, it's fake" which, often, leads to a backlash that is, shall we say, overblown. However, to the argument itself, as the "it's fake" won't ever go away, my answer has and will always be simple. If I watch a movie with a sports theme, for example I rewatched Major League for the millionth time the other night, I find myself toward the finale (even though I know it's cmoing) becoming more emotionally involved. During the "Win the whole f***in' thing" scene, I do get at least a little pumped up internally.
That is entirely the point, to draw an emotional reaction from the viewer. If it didnt'do that, it wouldnt' do its job. Similarly, if I go watch a sad movie, and don't leave saying some form of, "I"m not crying, you're crying, shut up, it's dusty in here" then, again, the writers and performers have failed to do their job.
The reaction of "haha, losers" that was shot at wrestling fans (and the subsequent over-reaction) boils down to this. Would it be considered acceptible to walk past a movie getting out, and openly mock people who show genuine emotional reactions toward said movie? Like standing there when someone realizes *SPOILER ALERT* taht Bambi's mom dies and they become sad or even tear up and screaming "it's a cartoon, loser, get over it", it would be considered at the very least a social misstep, if not a blatant act of douchebaggery.
However, having said that, if someone who had that reaction were to respond at some later time with "oh yeah, well you ruined everything, adn puppies die because your'e an asshole, and go die in a fire" then that too would be a massive case of "wht the hell is wrong with you", I believe the clinical term is.
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PKO
King Koopa
Posts: 12,598
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Post by PKO on Sept 11, 2016 16:56:00 GMT -5
Weird thread.
It's nice to see so many wrestlers giving Punk props for following a dream, and so few rubbing in the loss
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Dave the Dave
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Post by Dave the Dave on Sept 11, 2016 17:38:45 GMT -5
You're hot take on the situation is very unique but as far as I know UFC isn't pro wrestling. So yes I'm sure. Either way my original point was that people wanting Punk to get actually hurt was weird and sad. Your opinion on what a circus UFC was last night doesn't make it scripted fighting. Your hot take on thinking people shouldn't want to see Punk get his ass kicked is unique and all, but the point of putting Punk out there wasn't because he was going to fight a competitive fight. It was to draw tickets/buys, and part of the draw is that he's extremely divisive and people want to see him get his ass kicked. You know, just like wrestling. I'm not sure what point you're getting at. It was a spectacle. It can be like wrestling all you say but it isn't wrestling. So wanting to see someone get beat up is real and UFC and not in WWE. That's the black and white of it. And I'm not claiming wanting him to lose is wrong. It's a competition. That's what people do. I'm talking about (mostly Twitter) the lunatics wishing him crippled. Even I hated someone from my actual personal life I don't want them crippled. Not sure why out of all the posts mine got your attention. Unless you were wishing him to get injured im not critiquing you. To those saying no one wished he got hurt, search CM Punk on Twitter. I wasn't pulling that out of thin air.
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Post by Heinz Doofenschmirtz on Sept 11, 2016 18:23:59 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but if people want to know why a lot of folks don't take wrestling fans seriously, this and the Paige thread can be exhibits A and B this week. We have to accept reality: no matter if you follow them on Twitter, watch them on various TV shows, or seen a dozen shoot interviews with them, the reality is that we don't know these people. These are people who come out of an industry that thrives on working the audience, even their online personas are often going to have worked elements to them. Go ahead and say "based on what I've seen and heard I'm not a fan"; go ahead and joke about things about the fight, it's honestly fine (to a point, I'm sure). But good Lord, there's way, way too much here of "good, he's a jerk anyway, I hope he's in pain today/loses his money in the lawsuit", or "she's so immature, she should do this with her life, instead", etc. etc. etc. Meantime, we don't know these people, don't know their families and friends, don't know their relationships with others, don't know what makes them tick, what makes them happy, what their relationship with the companies they work with might be, yet we've got people here speaking authoritatively about what's best for either of them, or even actively skirting the "wishing harm" rule at worst. I couldn't care less how Punk performed; I rarely follow UFC, doesn't impact anything for me. I was a fan of the guy in ROH, but his life is his life, no real impact for me there, either. The guy clearly had something he wanted to do, got an offer to do it, so he tried and got beat down. Not terribly surprising, but there's not much to it beyond that. To piggyback on what others have said and what I said in the (w)rest section, if a Major League Baseball team approached me tomorrow and said "here's a big league contract, come play left field for us", you're damn right I'd take them up on it. I'd be a complete embarrassment, sure, but I'd try my best, train hard, and then get a bunch of money and benefits and the thrill of putting on a big league uniform and stepping onto the field at a big league ballpark. "But he's a jerk on Twitter!". Ok, so don't follow him on Twitter. Boom, now you never have to hear from him again if you don't want to. "But he shouldn't have been starting out in the biggest league for MMA so quickly!". Ok, take it up with Dana White and stop ordering his shows if he keeps doing reckless, carny shit like this. Again, nobody cares if you're joking around; dude put himself out in public and got murked, jokes are inevitable. But this bitterness too many are showing, is it anger at people leaving WWE? Is it some need to feel connected to these people? Is it resentment at the way they talk on Twitter or on TV shows? Because, honestly, it comes off as incredibly childish, and again, it doesn't help the general perception too many people have of wrestling fans. If Punk, Paige, or anybody were doing something that was actually hurting somebody else, then fine, I'd understand being angered. If Punk was taking to Twitter talking up how he'd take MMA by storm and started denigrating it, I'd understand people wanting to see him get some sense smacked into his head. If he was on Twitter calling for the harassment of others or something vile like that, then the indignation would have been earned. But if you respond to not liking somebody's Twitter/online persona by loudly proclaiming "I hope this person actually gets hurt and embarrassed" instead of, say, just ignoring their Twitter account the way an adult would, then you can't suddenly act all stunned if people accuse wrestling fans of immaturity. Jokes are great; educated guesses aren't a terrible thing; prefacing statements with "based on what I know" or similar caveats is a decent thin to do. Going beyond that really reflects poorly on us, and on wrestling fandom in general. I want this post bronzed and placed at the beginning of each thread. I want this post to be my best friend. I want this post to run for president and win in a landslide.
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Post by blake6905 on Sept 11, 2016 20:01:15 GMT -5
maybe for you. I didn't expect him to win or anything...but I watched because this guy walked away from the sport that made him rich and famous to chase a dream. And I respect the everloving shit out of that. My dream is to play in the NFL, but since I don't have name recognition like CM Punk, I'll never get that opportunity. But much like Punk, if I ever did get the chance, you can be assured that I'd get my s**t rocked and I'd look like a huge, embarrassing failure. Just because he's famous enough to get a bout he doesn't deserve doesn't mean he should go for it. I'm gonna pass this wisdom on to my children "don't go for it."
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 11, 2016 20:59:33 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but if people want to know why a lot of folks don't take wrestling fans seriously, this and the Paige thread can be exhibits A and B this week. We have to accept reality: no matter if you follow them on Twitter, watch them on various TV shows, or seen a dozen shoot interviews with them, the reality is that we don't know these people. These are people who come out of an industry that thrives on working the audience, even their online personas are often going to have worked elements to them. Go ahead and say "based on what I've seen and heard I'm not a fan"; go ahead and joke about things about the fight, it's honestly fine (to a point, I'm sure). But good Lord, there's way, way too much here of "good, he's a jerk anyway, I hope he's in pain today/loses his money in the lawsuit", or "she's so immature, she should do this with her life, instead", etc. etc. etc. Meantime, we don't know these people, don't know their families and friends, don't know their relationships with others, don't know what makes them tick, what makes them happy, what their relationship with the companies they work with might be, yet we've got people here speaking authoritatively about what's best for either of them, or even actively skirting the "wishing harm" rule at worst. I couldn't care less how Punk performed; I rarely follow UFC, doesn't impact anything for me. I was a fan of the guy in ROH, but his life is his life, no real impact for me there, either. The guy clearly had something he wanted to do, got an offer to do it, so he tried and got beat down. Not terribly surprising, but there's not much to it beyond that. To piggyback on what others have said and what I said in the (w)rest section, if a Major League Baseball team approached me tomorrow and said "here's a big league contract, come play left field for us", you're damn right I'd take them up on it. I'd be a complete embarrassment, sure, but I'd try my best, train hard, and then get a bunch of money and benefits and the thrill of putting on a big league uniform and stepping onto the field at a big league ballpark. "But he's a jerk on Twitter!". Ok, so don't follow him on Twitter. Boom, now you never have to hear from him again if you don't want to. "But he shouldn't have been starting out in the biggest league for MMA so quickly!". Ok, take it up with Dana White and stop ordering his shows if he keeps doing reckless, carny shit like this. Again, nobody cares if you're joking around; dude put himself out in public and got murked, jokes are inevitable. But this bitterness too many are showing, is it anger at people leaving WWE? Is it some need to feel connected to these people? Is it resentment at the way they talk on Twitter or on TV shows? Because, honestly, it comes off as incredibly childish, and again, it doesn't help the general perception too many people have of wrestling fans. If Punk, Paige, or anybody were doing something that was actually hurting somebody else, then fine, I'd understand being angered. If Punk was taking to Twitter talking up how he'd take MMA by storm and started denigrating it, I'd understand people wanting to see him get some sense smacked into his head. If he was on Twitter calling for the harassment of others or something vile like that, then the indignation would have been earned. But if you respond to not liking somebody's Twitter/online persona by loudly proclaiming "I hope this person actually gets hurt and embarrassed" instead of, say, just ignoring their Twitter account the way an adult would, then you can't suddenly act all stunned if people accuse wrestling fans of immaturity. Jokes are great; educated guesses aren't a terrible thing; prefacing statements with "based on what I know" or similar caveats is a decent thin to do. Going beyond that really reflects poorly on us, and on wrestling fandom in general. Your pretty much telling the Internet not to be the Internet. And on the subject of basing your opinion about someone based on what they put on the Internet what are we supposed to base our opinion on? Based on the persona CM Punk has I don't like him and enjoyed watching him get murked. Are you saying that makes me look bad as a wrestling fan? If someone presents themselves as an idiot on the Internet no matter what they may be like off of it people are going to treat them like an idiot if that Internet persona is all they see. You're free to cheer or boo whomever you like; UFC is a competition, so having favorites or decided non-favorites isn't an issue at all. Heck, like I said, joking around about this fight and how poorly Punk did is fair game, in my opinion. But I also feel that "he's a jerk on the internet so I actually want him to get seriously hurt" is a messed up way to approach things. Boo him, want him to lose, fine, but the whole "what a loser, glad he's hurt, blah blah blah" thing strikes me as petty. Punk "presents himself as a jerk" online (I don't follow his Twitter, so I don't know or much care), and that's Punk's business; again, he's not doing harm to other people, so what's the big deal? Just ignore him, then, his potential jerkishness doesn't impact any of us in any material or emotional way. I do know the guy comes from a background in working people, so I'd take anything he types or says with a grain of salt and remind myself that I don't really know anything else about him besides that online or on-mic persona. As for "it's the Internet", sure, but this is the FAN board, and I feel like we can do better than that. We can dislike how somebody handles himself without making it all personal or, in this case and in the Paige thread, acting like we have much authority to speak on the lives of the performers we watch. Concerning fans of other sports, yeah, tons of them do little to wrap themselves in glory, but I'd argue that wrestling fans have a problem more specific to my larger point, that I think wrestling fans get too possessive of wrestlers they like, too wrapped up in their lives while forgetting a lot of things might be works, too convinced that we know them because they're usually more active on Twitter than normal athletes who usually just let their agents handle their accounts. Yes, that exists in other sports, no doubt about it, but anecdotally it feels like a wider spread issue in our fandom, partly due to how individual personality-driven pro wrestling is.
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Sept 11, 2016 21:12:47 GMT -5
Your pretty much telling the Internet not to be the Internet. And on the subject of basing your opinion about someone based on what they put on the Internet what are we supposed to base our opinion on? Based on the persona CM Punk has I don't like him and enjoyed watching him get murked. Are you saying that makes me look bad as a wrestling fan? If someone presents themselves as an idiot on the Internet no matter what they may be like off of it people are going to treat them like an idiot if that Internet persona is all they see. You're free to cheer or boo whomever you like; UFC is a competition, so having favorites or decided non-favorites isn't an issue at all. Heck, like I said, joking around about this fight and how poorly Punk did is fair game, in my opinion. But I also feel that "he's a jerk on the internet so I actually want him to get seriously hurt" is a messed up way to approach things. Boo him, want him to lose, fine, but the whole "what a loser, glad he's hurt, blah blah blah" thing strikes me as petty. Punk "presents himself as a jerk" online (I don't follow his Twitter, so I don't know or much care), and that's Punk's business; again, he's not doing harm to other people, so what's the big deal? Just ignore him, then, his potential jerkishness doesn't impact any of us in any material or emotional way. I do know the guy comes from a background in working people, so I'd take anything he types or says with a grain of salt and remind myself that I don't really know anything else about him besides that online or on-mic persona. As for "it's the Internet", sure, but this is the FAN board, and I feel like we can do better than that. We can dislike how somebody handles himself without making it all personal or, in this case and in the Paige thread, acting like we have much authority to speak on the lives of the performers we watch. Concerning fans of other sports, yeah, tons of them do little to wrap themselves in glory, but I'd argue that wrestling fans have a problem more specific to my larger point, that I think wrestling fans get too possessive of wrestlers they like, too wrapped up in their lives while forgetting a lot of things might be works, too convinced that we know them because they're usually more active on Twitter than normal athletes who usually just let their agents handle their accounts. Yes, that exists in other sports, no doubt about it, but anecdotally it feels like a wider spread issue in our fandom, partly due to how individual personality-driven pro wrestling is. I like the cut of your jib. And it all makes perfect sense.
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Allie Kitsune
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Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,056
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 11, 2016 23:03:43 GMT -5
I don't want to get on the wrong side of certain posters, but I don't think that "wanting Punk to get humbled" and "wanting Punk to get injured" are even close to the same thing.
I get that my own personal situation when it comes to being offered a paycheck for whatever doesn't compare in any even remotely close way, of course, but I'm not going to subscribe to the "100% absolute polarization" school of thought where you either have to want to see the best for him, or want to see him get his life ruined.
I think it's OK, if you find anything about his public persona to be a turn-off, to want to see him lose; and furthermore, to be satisfied in his loss; hoping maybe his ego got knocked down a peg.
But I also think that other people need to understand that THAT doesn't mean that they wanted to see him get seriously injured or whatever else along those lines.
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Post by katiemorgan67212 on Sept 11, 2016 23:23:10 GMT -5
Anytime an actor quits working for a show that I love because he/she believes that he/she is too "good" or too "big" for the show that made him/her famous I always want his/her next project to fail. So I am happy with this result.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Sept 11, 2016 23:41:09 GMT -5
Anytime an actor quits working for a show that I love because he/she believes that he/she is too "good" or too "big" for the show that made him/her famous I always want his/her next project to fail. I'm sorry, but that's a very sad attitude to have. By the same standard, anybody who wants to get a better-paying job or something more suitable to their needs deserves to fail, right? Besides, Punk didn't quit because he believed he was "too big" or "too good" for WWE.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 11, 2016 23:51:53 GMT -5
Anytime an actor quits working for a show that I love because he/she believes that he/she is too "good" or too "big" for the show that made him/her famous I always want his/her next project to fail. So I am happy with this result. Did you feel this way when Punk first left RoH to sign with WWE?
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Post by Green Arrow on Sept 11, 2016 23:53:55 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but if people want to know why a lot of folks don't take wrestling fans seriously, this and the Paige thread can be exhibits A and B this week. We have to accept reality: no matter if you follow them on Twitter, watch them on various TV shows, or seen a dozen shoot interviews with them, the reality is that we don't know these people. These are people who come out of an industry that thrives on working the audience, even their online personas are often going to have worked elements to them. Go ahead and say "based on what I've seen and heard I'm not a fan"; go ahead and joke about things about the fight, it's honestly fine (to a point, I'm sure). But good Lord, there's way, way too much here of "good, he's a jerk anyway, I hope he's in pain today/loses his money in the lawsuit", or "she's so immature, she should do this with her life, instead", etc. etc. etc. Meantime, we don't know these people, don't know their families and friends, don't know their relationships with others, don't know what makes them tick, what makes them happy, what their relationship with the companies they work with might be, yet we've got people here speaking authoritatively about what's best for either of them, or even actively skirting the "wishing harm" rule at worst. I couldn't care less how Punk performed; I rarely follow UFC, doesn't impact anything for me. I was a fan of the guy in ROH, but his life is his life, no real impact for me there, either. The guy clearly had something he wanted to do, got an offer to do it, so he tried and got beat down. Not terribly surprising, but there's not much to it beyond that. To piggyback on what others have said and what I said in the (w)rest section, if a Major League Baseball team approached me tomorrow and said "here's a big league contract, come play left field for us", you're damn right I'd take them up on it. I'd be a complete embarrassment, sure, but I'd try my best, train hard, and then get a bunch of money and benefits and the thrill of putting on a big league uniform and stepping onto the field at a big league ballpark. "But he's a jerk on Twitter!". Ok, so don't follow him on Twitter. Boom, now you never have to hear from him again if you don't want to. "But he shouldn't have been starting out in the biggest league for MMA so quickly!". Ok, take it up with Dana White and stop ordering his shows if he keeps doing reckless, carny shit like this. Again, nobody cares if you're joking around; dude put himself out in public and got murked, jokes are inevitable. But this bitterness too many are showing, is it anger at people leaving WWE? Is it some need to feel connected to these people? Is it resentment at the way they talk on Twitter or on TV shows? Because, honestly, it comes off as incredibly childish, and again, it doesn't help the general perception too many people have of wrestling fans. If Punk, Paige, or anybody were doing something that was actually hurting somebody else, then fine, I'd understand being angered. If Punk was taking to Twitter talking up how he'd take MMA by storm and started denigrating it, I'd understand people wanting to see him get some sense smacked into his head. If he was on Twitter calling for the harassment of others or something vile like that, then the indignation would have been earned. But if you respond to not liking somebody's Twitter/online persona by loudly proclaiming "I hope this person actually gets hurt and embarrassed" instead of, say, just ignoring their Twitter account the way an adult would, then you can't suddenly act all stunned if people accuse wrestling fans of immaturity. Jokes are great; educated guesses aren't a terrible thing; prefacing statements with "based on what I know" or similar caveats is a decent thin to do. Going beyond that really reflects poorly on us, and on wrestling fandom in general. I want this post bronzed and placed at the beginning of each thread. I want this post to be my best friend. I want this post to run for president and win in a landslide. With the current options, it probably would.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 12, 2016 1:10:32 GMT -5
Don't be a dick like CM Punk, so don't be a dick to CM Punk.
(And people wanting him to get hurt is hyperbole of the nth degree.)
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Sept 12, 2016 2:56:32 GMT -5
Anytime an actor quits working for a show that I love because he/she believes that he/she is too "good" or too "big" for the show that made him/her famous I always want his/her next project to fail. So I am happy with this result. Tall Poppy Syndrome in action in a single sentence, ladies and gents. I've been surrounded by this kind of attitude at times and it's utterly toxic. How dare Punk refuse to be satisfied with his lot in life, have ambition, and want to do better or chase a dream. How dare he accept an opportunity that anybody in his shoes would jump at if offered, he's a Quieter. I did find his attitude abrasive to say the least especially the last few months, but I was still pulling for him in UFC. Because I respect when someone tries to achieve a dream or life goal, no matter how out of their depth they might be. HMark's post needs to be stickied big time. The best possible summary of this whole 'debate'.
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Post by honsou on Sept 12, 2016 3:24:51 GMT -5
I knew Punk was probably going to lose fairly quickly even when they first announced that he was actually going to have a fight at the UFC, mostly since they usually don't bring in pure cans to make guys they want to push look good like some other promotions.
I was actually really happy for Punk, he gets to live out a dream, show that he at least had guts to go out and end up with a decent paycheck.I was however very mad at the UFC for doing this, with so many fighters who deserve to be in the UFC: Jake Shields and Ben Askren just off the top of my head. The UFC instead decides bring in a celebrity with no previous experience and a million medical issues just to bring in a few more buys to one PPV? Its that sort of thinking that makes me worried for the long term health of the sport in general.
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Post by saitamasuplex on Sept 12, 2016 4:07:19 GMT -5
In the fight game, nothing is free. There are no free punches. No free kicks. No free take-down defenses. And no free guard-passes. In fighting, there IS NO TRAINING to prepare you for your first fight. Like your first day on the job. Or riding a bike. Or writing a poem. You will suck. And you will suck hard. Then, over time, you'll learn from your mistakes, forgive your err, and learn as you go. This is especially true in combat; because the stakes are infinitely higher. Because it's literally life and death. Because a punch can blind you. Or an uppercut can pop your ear; or leave your face beaten with scars that will remind you of your failure in that moment. And you will be reminded of your failure, every day, until you die. From the scar in your mouth, over your brow, or with that broken arm that just doesn't work right anymore. Punk, never learned these lessons. Punk, despite two years of training, underestimated the most important factor of becoming a successful fighter. The fight against yourself. There is no technique, no gym made to prepare you for the person you actually are. Or the person you will be when the world is watching you. When you are in the arena. When your failures are judged. Watched. Ridiculed. And then you will be stronger. Immortal. Because, there is nowhere to go but up. But Punk...he began...where men have already had those battles. Thousands of sparring matches, hundreds of Tournament matches, thousands of rounds....all in different environments, different camps, different playgrounds. Where just a few remain. Those who have all already been judged, ridiculed and been challenged to become the person they are. And let me tell you something Mean Gene. FIGHTING, isn't about what techniques you know, it's about reacting to situations IN THAT MOMENT. Where if you're too worried about "What" you should be doing because of the way you "feel", you will not be able to fight. You'll be stiff and awkward as a child on his first day of school. Afraid to leave the nest, though physically prepared. Punk, should feel privileged to have been in the octagon with a skilled opponent and respected for the effort. However, he was delusional to think that, on the brevity of that stage, that HE (not the octagon) wouldn't get the best of himself. He stepped into the octagon without 'knowing' what a fight against ego actually is. Though, I'm sure he's learning...
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Post by Ryushinku on Sept 12, 2016 4:17:02 GMT -5
Yeah, my take is that Dana and the UFC deserve the stick much much more than Punk does.
He got thrashed in there, pretty embarrassing. But they put him in that situation, or at least enabled it for their own gain.
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魔界5号
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Post by 魔界5号 on Sept 12, 2016 4:48:44 GMT -5
I rarely agree with Conor McGregor, but he nailed it when it comes to this.
Yes, he got his ass kicked, but he gave it a go. He had something he wanted to do, and he went out there and did it. Win, lose or draw, nobody can take that away from him.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Sept 12, 2016 4:59:36 GMT -5
Every time I've changed jobs, careers, or even hobbies, I've had people gleefully tell me I should stick with what I was doing and would fail at this new thing.
Sometimes they were right. Sometimes (often, in fact) they were wrong.
But I gave it a go, and I'm glad I did. Can't fault Punk for doing the same, with MUCH farther to fall.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Sept 12, 2016 5:08:51 GMT -5
I don't want to get on the wrong side of certain posters, but I don't think that "wanting Punk to get humbled" and "wanting Punk to get injured" are even close to the same thing. Yeah, I wanted him to lose, I wanted him to get humbled, but I didn't want injury. He bitched about part timers coming into WWE and getting spots, and then he turned around and did almost the same thing in UFC. I say almost, because those part timers in WWE had made their names in wrestling, they had succeeded in wrestling, Punk went into UFC with no combat sports experience or amateur wrestling background.
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