chrom
Backup Wench
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Post by chrom on Mar 9, 2017 10:30:01 GMT -5
I swear Shatner should restart The Get a Life foundation with how much whining there's going on. The only thing they're talking about in posts I've seen is how a White Guy should not be played by a White Guy. Two or Three like this are actually talking about the show, the rest are just bitching about it. 411mania.com/movies/marvels-iron-fist-1-1-1-6-review/
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Mar 9, 2017 16:44:28 GMT -5
I'm confused. Are people really complaining that the white guy is a white guy? Now I don't know much about Iron Fist except for the Spiderman Web Warriors cartoon. But ain't he a blonde white boy in the comics too?
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 9, 2017 16:50:41 GMT -5
I'm confused. Are people really complaining that the white guy is a white guy? Now I don't know much about Iron Fist except for the Spiderman Web Warriors cartoon. But ain't he a blonde white boy in the comics too? The general complaint seems to be that it's better for Marvel to turn Iron Fist into a bad Asian stereotype than to push the white saviour trope.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 16:51:03 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Which means they're screwed either way. Probably should have just left the character in the past.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Mar 9, 2017 16:59:00 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Dutch door action. It seems to be a silly thing to complain about to me. Like seriously. I'd be like umm he's white he's always been white it's not whitewashing if the character has always been white. And white saviordom is a thing?!? Really? I'm confused again. Like as a black person I was never one to get angry about the lack of black superheroes. Most of those comic were started in a tine where that wasn't a thing and I'm okay with that. Does ethnicty really matter all that much?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 17:03:29 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Dutch door action. It seems to be a silly thing to complain about to me. Like seriously. I'd be like umm he's white he's always been white it's not whitewashing if the character has always been white. And white saviordom is a thing?!? Really? I'm confused again. Like as a black person I was never one to get angry about the lack of black superheroes. Most of those comic were started in a tine where that wasn't a thing and I'm okay with that. Does ethnicty really matter all that much? Again, I don't think it's really whitewashing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior_narrative_in_filmIt also tacitly applies to when a white lead (because if he's not white then it won't sell more tickets) is the best at something commonly attributed to another culture. As to your question about whether or not it matters that much? Just depends on the person. I'd say most people would say that kind of stuff matters more than what will probably be an average-at-best tv show. Personally as someone's who is half-Chinese, the amount of bs I've seen in regards to how Asians are portrayed in TV/movies etc is pretty sad and definitely means more than another show based of stories/characters from a time when dumb shit like Micky Rooney's "portrayal" of a Japanese neighbor in breakfast at tiffany's was accepted/applauded as comedy.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Mar 9, 2017 17:19:50 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Dutch door action. What's funny is that Lewis Tan will be on Iron Fist as a bad guy... but he auditioned for Danny Rand. He's an Asian actor. He's young. He's conventionally attractive. And he knows martial arts. And he's also someone who has been vocal about the need to have a diversity of roles for Asian actors in Western media beyond the stereotypical, although recognizing the importance of Asian representation in media altogether. Short of his acting ability, because I haven't seen him in anything so I can't say that he would have been good or bad, he hits a lot of the check-marks of being socially conscious that Marvel Netflix used when developing the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage shows. And even Rand's whiteness wouldn't be as much of a sticking point for some of these critics were the show to address the white saviour trope head-on, which would be a kind of creative take on the source material (when Iron Fist isn't killing a dragon), but it sounds like the show doesn't deconstruct the trope whatsoever. Regardless, the show's in the can. It's soon to be widely released. Most of the conversations are moot now. Marvel Netflix can only weather the bad press and then soldier on, and maybe address and fix some stuff in The Defenders or a possible Iron Fist Season 2 run.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Mar 9, 2017 17:26:13 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Dutch door action. What's funny is that Lewis Tan will be on Iron Fist as a bad guy... but he auditioned for Danny Rand. He's an Asian actor. He's young. He's conventionally attractive. And he knows martial arts. And he's also someone who has been vocal about the need to have a diversity of roles for Asian actors in Western media beyond the stereotypical, although recognizing the importance of Asian representation in media altogether. Short of his acting ability, because I haven't seen him in anything so I can't say that he would have been good or bad, he hits a lot of the check-marks of being socially conscious that Marvel Netflix used when developing the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage shows. And even Rand's whiteness wouldn't be as much of a sticking point for some of these critics were the show to address the white saviour trope head-on, which would be a kind of creative take on the source material (when Iron Fist isn't killing a dragon), but it sounds like the show doesn't deconstruct the trope whatsoever. Regardless, the show's in the can. It's soon to be widely released. Most of the conversations are moot now. Marvel Netflix can only weather the bad press and then soldier on, and maybe address and fix some stuff in The Defenders or a possible Iron Fist Season 2 run. I'm al for diversity but I don't thing changing the race of an already existing character is the way to go about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 17:26:19 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Dutch door action. What's funny is that Lewis Tan will be on Iron Fist as a bad guy... but he auditioned for Danny Rand. He's an Asian actor. He's young. He's conventionally attractive. And he knows martial arts. And he's also someone who has been vocal about the need to have a diversity of roles for Asian actors in Western media beyond the stereotypical, although recognizing the importance of Asian representation in media altogether. Short of his acting ability, because I haven't seen him in anything so I can't say that he would have been good or bad, he hits a lot of the check-marks of being socially conscious that Marvel Netflix used when developing the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage shows. And even Rand's whiteness wouldn't be as much of a sticking point for some of these critics were the show to address the white saviour trope head-on, which would be a kind of creative take on the source material (when Iron Fist isn't killing a dragon), but it sounds like the show doesn't deconstruct the trope whatsoever. Regardless, the show's in the can. It's soon to be widely released. Most of the conversations are moot now. Marvel Netflix can only weather the bad press and then soldier on, and maybe address and fix some stuff in The Defenders or a possible Iron Fist Season 2 run. I read the showrunners are incorporating Rand's outsider status in the martial arts world into the storyline. Again, not exactly re-inventing the wheel of this kind of thing, but acknowledging it at least something. Overall it just seems cliche' as all get-out to me, but what can you expect? If they wanted to go that route though, making him bi-racial would have REALLY emphasized the outsider status they are shooting for with Rand. I'm sure people would complain no matter what, but I think it would have better showcased the themes they're possibly going for.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 17:29:49 GMT -5
What's funny is that Lewis Tan will be on Iron Fist as a bad guy... but he auditioned for Danny Rand. He's an Asian actor. He's young. He's conventionally attractive. And he knows martial arts. And he's also someone who has been vocal about the need to have a diversity of roles for Asian actors in Western media beyond the stereotypical, although recognizing the importance of Asian representation in media altogether. Short of his acting ability, because I haven't seen him in anything so I can't say that he would have been good or bad, he hits a lot of the check-marks of being socially conscious that Marvel Netflix used when developing the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage shows. And even Rand's whiteness wouldn't be as much of a sticking point for some of these critics were the show to address the white saviour trope head-on, which would be a kind of creative take on the source material (when Iron Fist isn't killing a dragon), but it sounds like the show doesn't deconstruct the trope whatsoever. Regardless, the show's in the can. It's soon to be widely released. Most of the conversations are moot now. Marvel Netflix can only weather the bad press and then soldier on, and maybe address and fix some stuff in The Defenders or a possible Iron Fist Season 2 run. I'm al for diversity but I don't thing changing the race of an already existing character is the way to go about it. To me, it's not even about diversity, just catching up to the times. Why be so regimented in staying "true to the source material" when that source material could easily be changed to so it doesn't seem like it was written in 1974? I don't understand the reticence for modernizing a character that could benefit from it? It's like, imagine if people were up in arms because they changed Iron Man suit from silver to orange/red because "well, you can't just CHANGE THINGS!?!?"
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Jonathan Michaels
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Mar 12, 2017 1:54:06 GMT -5
It's a thorny issue, to be sure.
I remember when Fant4stic came out a couple years ago, and I was upset about the whole Human Torch thing, but for a completely different reason, that being that I thought Reed should have been black instead.
Honestly, why does the black guy have to play the cocky, arrogant showboat instead of the levelheaded genius scientist?
Hell, All you had to do was switch the actors, Michael B. Jordan would have been a solid Reed Richards and as for Miles Teller, playing a cocky douche is right in his wheelhouse.
And with Thor: Ragnarok, I saw the picture of Thor and Valkyrie, and my first thought wasn't that Valkyrie was black, it was that she's way too damn tiny, Valkyrie is supposed to be almost as big as Thor, the actress they cast is like a foot shorter, makes no sense to me.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 12, 2017 2:10:51 GMT -5
I guess I don't get the complaints. If I were casting any character, I'd try to find actors who reasonably resemble the illustrations. Race is irrelevant. If I were casting Storm, I wouldn't think "Okay, gotta find black women", I'd think "Okay, gotta find women who look like Storm". Pre-existing characters have established races. It is what it is. You'd hear just as much bitching if they tried to make Hulk blue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 2:29:08 GMT -5
I guess I don't get the complaints. If I were casting any character, I'd try to find actors who reasonably resemble the illustrations. Race is irrelevant. If I were casting Storm, I wouldn't think "Okay, gotta find black women", I'd think "Okay, gotta find women who look like Storm". Pre-existing characters have established races. It is what it is. You'd hear just as much bitching if they tried to make Hulk blue. I just view it if there race/nationality/ is there character or if it makes sense. With Batman The Wayne's was one of America's earliest and most powerful Dynasty Famalies so it makes sense Bruce Wayne is White. Superman is from another planet so he can be anything.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Mar 12, 2017 3:07:14 GMT -5
All this controversy. Keep him white, people bitch they wanted him Asian. If they made him Asian, the exact same people would bitch about media stereotyping. People just like to bitch. I've been saying it for a year. It's WAY more racist to automatically expect the martial arts guy to be Asian than it is to cast a white actor as a white character. Putting aside that there the franchise already has a 'martial arts guy' who's a white Irish-American, and that being a superhero traditionally comes with some expectation of being able to fight, the whole backstory of Iron Fist is "Yeah, so I went to this mystical Asian city and got trained in martial arts by Asian characters". It's not like it's averting cliches in any way shape or form, it's just that they don't seem willing to put Asian characters at the forefront of the franchise rather than on the periphery.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Mar 12, 2017 5:10:53 GMT -5
Meh even if Marvel did what all the whiners wanted and made him Asian they still would of found something to get their knickers in a twist. They were dammed if they dammed if they don't.
But I would of much rather have a second season of Jessica Jones than a Iron Fist series. Because regardless if he is white or Asian he is a lame and uninteresting character and I doubt he could carry an entire show without boring the tits off me.
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Mar 12, 2017 5:26:08 GMT -5
I would have found a way to introduce him in Luke Cage. Cage had an episode or two where they could've work an interaction with Iron Fist. Seeing that the settings appear to have a contrast,the could have shown where the link between them came from.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 7:44:13 GMT -5
Shai I think it has more to do with him being another "white savior" type. I don't know for sure. Show looked boring from the trailers so I'm not really that into it, but I can see how people who be kinda like, "really? again?" which is just an unfortunate circumstance because really since the character was created in 1974 it was way less likely that he'd actually be Asian. So it's kind of a case of staying true to the original character, but the original character was probably hip deep in cultural appropriation/white saviordom to begin with. Dutch door action. What's funny is that Lewis Tan will be on Iron Fist as a bad guy... but he auditioned for Danny Rand. He's an Asian actor. He's young. He's conventionally attractive. And he knows martial arts. And he's also someone who has been vocal about the need to have a diversity of roles for Asian actors in Western media beyond the stereotypical, although recognizing the importance of Asian representation in media altogether. Short of his acting ability, because I haven't seen him in anything so I can't say that he would have been good or bad, he hits a lot of the check-marks of being socially conscious that Marvel Netflix used when developing the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage shows. And even Rand's whiteness wouldn't be as much of a sticking point for some of these critics were the show to address the white saviour trope head-on, which would be a kind of creative take on the source material (when Iron Fist isn't killing a dragon), but it sounds like the show doesn't deconstruct the trope whatsoever. Regardless, the show's in the can. It's soon to be widely released. Most of the conversations are moot now. Marvel Netflix can only weather the bad press and then soldier on, and maybe address and fix some stuff in The Defenders or a possible Iron Fist Season 2 run. Ultimately all you've said is definitely why I've got no love for this lameness in 2017. I'm not really surprised the show has all the problems it does even outside the obvious "a character like Danny Rand ain't really gonna fly as is in 2017." And while you say they may fix this stuff, I have a feeling the only solution they'll use is to glom that mess onto Luke Cage as a character and hope people don't notice, and all I think it's going to do is drag down The Defenders in general, or worse yet, Luke Cage. If Finn Jones is as crusty of an actor as everyone has been saying, do I really want to see this bland somebody play Danny Rand and pal around with Cage, or worse, fumble into a relationship with Misty Knight? No. **** no. I mean, Luke Cage could stand on its own as a show. It stood so much on its own that it crashed Netflix for a spell, so why can't Iron Fist stand on its own? I feel some kinda way about people already talking about how Rand would be "better" paired with Cage. I get that that's how it was in the comic, but this isn't the comics. The show and character was lit as ****, yet now it essentially has to bail out a lame character that a whole bunch of people said wasn't going to work from jump? Ugh.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Mar 12, 2017 7:52:48 GMT -5
What's funny is that Lewis Tan will be on Iron Fist as a bad guy... but he auditioned for Danny Rand. He's an Asian actor. He's young. He's conventionally attractive. And he knows martial arts. And he's also someone who has been vocal about the need to have a diversity of roles for Asian actors in Western media beyond the stereotypical, although recognizing the importance of Asian representation in media altogether. Short of his acting ability, because I haven't seen him in anything so I can't say that he would have been good or bad, he hits a lot of the check-marks of being socially conscious that Marvel Netflix used when developing the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage shows. And even Rand's whiteness wouldn't be as much of a sticking point for some of these critics were the show to address the white saviour trope head-on, which would be a kind of creative take on the source material (when Iron Fist isn't killing a dragon), but it sounds like the show doesn't deconstruct the trope whatsoever. Regardless, the show's in the can. It's soon to be widely released. Most of the conversations are moot now. Marvel Netflix can only weather the bad press and then soldier on, and maybe address and fix some stuff in The Defenders or a possible Iron Fist Season 2 run. Ultimately all you've said is definitely why I've got no love for this lameness in 2017. I'm not really surprised the show has all the problems it does even outside the obvious "a character like Danny Rand ain't really gonna fly as is in 2017." And while you say they may fix this stuff, I have a feeling the only solution they'll use is to glom that mess onto Luke Cage as a character and hope people don't notice, and all I think it's going to do is drag down The Defenders in general, or worse yet, Luke Cage. If Finn Jones is as crusty of an actor as everyone has been saying, do I really want to see this bland somebody play Danny Rand and pal around with Cage, or worse, fumble into a relationship with Misty Knight? No. **** no. I mean, Luke Cage could stand on its own as a show. It stood so much on its own that it crashed Netflix for a spell, so why can't Iron Fist stand on its own? I feel some kinda way about people already talking about how Rand would be "better" paired with Cage. I get that that's how it was in the comic, but this isn't the comics. The show and character was lit as ****, yet now it essentially has to bail out a lame character that a whole bunch of people said wasn't going to work from jump? Ugh. Luke Cage has some serious pacing issues and a terrible second act villain. Power Man and Iron Fist go together, that's how it is. Two bland characters that work as a duo, but alone, don't really bring all that much, and Netflix dont appear to have done anything to change people's opinions on that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 8:05:50 GMT -5
Ultimately all you've said is definitely why I've got no love for this lameness in 2017. I'm not really surprised the show has all the problems it does even outside the obvious "a character like Danny Rand ain't really gonna fly as is in 2017." And while you say they may fix this stuff, I have a feeling the only solution they'll use is to glom that mess onto Luke Cage as a character and hope people don't notice, and all I think it's going to do is drag down The Defenders in general, or worse yet, Luke Cage. If Finn Jones is as crusty of an actor as everyone has been saying, do I really want to see this bland somebody play Danny Rand and pal around with Cage, or worse, fumble into a relationship with Misty Knight? No. **** no. I mean, Luke Cage could stand on its own as a show. It stood so much on its own that it crashed Netflix for a spell, so why can't Iron Fist stand on its own? I feel some kinda way about people already talking about how Rand would be "better" paired with Cage. I get that that's how it was in the comic, but this isn't the comics. The show and character was lit as ****, yet now it essentially has to bail out a lame character that a whole bunch of people said wasn't going to work from jump? Ugh. Luke Cage has some serious pacing issues and a terrible second act villain. Power Man and Iron Fist go together, that's how it is. Two bland characters that work as a duo, but alone, don't really bring all that much, and Netflix dont appear to have done anything to change people's opinions on that. I do indeed have those same issues with Luke Cage, but why act like that show wasn't wildly successful? Seems like that show and apparently that character brought a lot. Unless that second half of Iron Fist is the shit, Rand isn't going to get nearly that love. Again, this isn't the comics where people didn't give a shit about either of them. People clearly do care about Cage and friends.
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Mar 12, 2017 12:52:54 GMT -5
I'm al for diversity but I don't thing changing the race of an already existing character is the way to go about it. To me, it's not even about diversity, just catching up to the times. Why be so regimented in staying "true to the source material" when that source material could easily be changed to so it doesn't seem like it was written in 1974? I don't understand the reticence for modernizing a character that could benefit from it? It's like, imagine if people were up in arms because they changed Iron Man suit from silver to orange/red because "well, you can't just CHANGE THINGS!?!?" So much this..., He should have been changed not just to diversify but to change old story telling. White matial artist fightingnstreet crime is so 70's and boring. It is a cliches thats been around for 40 years. Spice shit up. The source material is dated and dumb not racist perse just lame. After luke cage was so boring and disappointing to me im not even gonna watch this I think. Which sucks cause Dd and jones were fantastic.
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