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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 21:43:23 GMT -5
Danny's whiteness is integral to the character. The fact that he's an outsider in both places, as a white boy in K'un-Lun who found himself and then came back to a New York that he is no longer connected to despite being rich and having every advantage is a huge part of who he is. The fact that he reacts to all of these disconnections with a sort of relaxed, zen detachment is one of the most fascinating parts of the character for me. The amount of jokes Luke has made about him being a rich white kid trying to have the "urban experience" is gigantic.
And Iron Fist hasn't been about fighting street crime in forever. Dude fights other crazy, mortal kombat esque martial arts bad guys. The early part of his last, admittedly garbage solo series had him fighting undead ninjas. The netflix shows have already done this and I would imagine will do them again.
I love Iron Fist. I knew when they said he would get a show he wouldn't get a fair shake. I still don't think he will. That said, it sounds like the show is failing because of it's writing in those first six episodes and not the broader social reaction
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
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Post by Renslayer on Mar 15, 2017 1:20:47 GMT -5
I kinda get his frustration and think he's on to something when he talks about fans dumping on the show before it's even come out. At the same time, you gotta play this a lot better and understand where people are coming from with their critiques about the character in general.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 13:53:57 GMT -5
To me, it's not even about diversity, just catching up to the times. Why be so regimented in staying "true to the source material" when that source material could easily be changed to so it doesn't seem like it was written in 1974? I don't understand the reticence for modernizing a character that could benefit from it? It's like, imagine if people were up in arms because they changed Iron Man suit from silver to orange/red because "well, you can't just CHANGE THINGS!?!?" So much this..., He should have been changed not just to diversify but to change old story telling. White matial artist fightingnstreet crime is so 70's and boring. It is a cliches thats been around for 40 years. Spice shit up. The source material is dated and dumb not racist perse just lame. After luke cage was so boring and disappointing to me im not even gonna watch this I think. Which sucks cause Dd and jones were fantastic. Exactly. It's just hacky at this point. If they would have went over-the-top with the campiness, then it might of worked, but if you're gonna play it straight it feels anachronistic. That's why I say the character should have been biracial. A lot of the show seems to be about a character inhabiting, but being an outsider in different worlds. I cannot imagine a better way to showcase that by having a lead that's half white/halfAsian.
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Mar 15, 2017 15:12:12 GMT -5
So much this..., He should have been changed not just to diversify but to change old story telling. White matial artist fightingnstreet crime is so 70's and boring. It is a cliches thats been around for 40 years. Spice shit up. The source material is dated and dumb not racist perse just lame. After luke cage was so boring and disappointing to me im not even gonna watch this I think. Which sucks cause Dd and jones were fantastic. Exactly. It's just hacky at this point. If they would have went over-the-top with the campiness, then it might of worked, but if you're gonna play it straight it feels anachronistic. That's why I say the character should have been biracial. A lot of the show seems to be about a character inhabiting, but being an outsider in different worlds. I cannot imagine a better way to showcase that by having a lead that's half white/halfAsian. That is a really good idea to boot. Also speaking of tired cliches how many rich white guys end up shipwrecked or traveling to foreign lands to learn martial arts and fight crime. Batman and now Green Arrow are pretty prolific with dc live actionvwrse why not change it to be different.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 15:58:53 GMT -5
Exactly. It's just hacky at this point. If they would have went over-the-top with the campiness, then it might of worked, but if you're gonna play it straight it feels anachronistic. That's why I say the character should have been biracial. A lot of the show seems to be about a character inhabiting, but being an outsider in different worlds. I cannot imagine a better way to showcase that by having a lead that's half white/halfAsian. That is a really good idea to boot. Also speaking of tired cliches how many rich white guys end up shipwrecked or traveling to foreign lands to learn martial arts and fight crime. Batman and now Green Arrow are pretty prolific with dc live actionvwrse why not change it to be different. Dr Strange too. Kinda I have this thing now where I'm kinda over "trust-fund superheroes." Like, "oh you're rich and have every opportunity to do nothing but learn to be a hero? The struggle is real....." At least with some of the X-Men they COULDN'T get normal jobs because society turned them away.
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Juice
El Dandy
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I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
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Post by Juice on Mar 15, 2017 16:18:23 GMT -5
That is a really good idea to boot. Also speaking of tired cliches how many rich white guys end up shipwrecked or traveling to foreign lands to learn martial arts and fight crime. Batman and now Green Arrow are pretty prolific with dc live actionvwrse why not change it to be different. Dr Strange too. Kinda I have this thing now where I'm kinda over "trust-fund superheroes." Like, "oh you're rich and have every opportunity to do nothing but learn to be a hero? The struggle is real....." At least with some of the X-Men they COULDN'T get normal jobs because society turned them away. Ive been turned off as a whole from superhero stuff sadly. The craze being bugger than ever has created an over saturated market creating these problems as well as general audiences thinking they are experts with video game or movie knowledge. I walked into walmart one day and could not stonach all of the stuff I usually would be happy to buy. So much general merch just staring at me. It made me sad.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 16:57:27 GMT -5
Surprises me the show's mostly gotten so bad of reviews. Kind of figured Marvel was relatively critic proof at this point but the thing's really being pretty savaged early in.
I mean, I didn't really want to check it out anyway since it looks like just a TV version of Batman Begins (and I've not watched any of the other Marvel Netflix shows), but I figured it'd at least review decently.
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Post by Long A, Short A on Mar 15, 2017 17:13:35 GMT -5
I'm giving Iron Fist a chance, but I don't have a single problem with people that aren't here for White Karate Master: A Netflix original. If you can update Luke Cage and make the show cookout ready,, why can't you do the same with Iron Fist?
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 15, 2017 17:38:58 GMT -5
I'm giving Iron Fist a chance, but I don't have a single problem with people that aren't here for White Karate Master: A Netflix original. If you can update Luke Cage and make the show cookout ready,, why can't you do the same with Iron Fist? They are updating it, everyone involved has said so. You're implying that the only way to update it would have been to change Danny's race, which is a really hollow way to pretend you've updated something when in all reality you just race-swapped. Where was this vitriol from the internet media when Marvel took two prominent Asian characters in The Mandarin and The Ancient One and made them white?
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Mackenzie Gorn
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Post by Mackenzie Gorn on Mar 15, 2017 17:43:38 GMT -5
I'm giving Iron Fist a chance, but I don't have a single problem with people that aren't here for White Karate Master: A Netflix original. If you can update Luke Cage and make the show cookout ready,, why can't you do the same with Iron Fist? They are updating it, everyone involved has said so. You're implying that the only way to update it would have been to change Danny's race, which is a really hollow way to pretend you've updated something when in all reality you just race-swapped. Where was this vitriol from the internet media when Marvel took two prominent Asian characters in The Mandarin and The Ancient One and made them white? Giving this a like but I'll also say that it wasn't the real Mandarin even in universe because dear god I am still holding out hope we get him at some point in the MCU. Other than that yeah agreed on all points. (What does cookout ready mean? Never heard that before.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 18:03:28 GMT -5
I'm giving Iron Fist a chance, but I don't have a single problem with people that aren't here for White Karate Master: A Netflix original. If you can update Luke Cage and make the show cookout ready,, why can't you do the same with Iron Fist? They are updating it, everyone involved has said so. You're implying that the only way to update it would have been to change Danny's race, which is a really hollow way to pretend you've updated something when in all reality you just race-swapped. Where was this vitriol from the internet media when Marvel took two prominent Asian characters in The Mandarin and The Ancient One and made them white? I thought everyone lost their shit over the Ancient One being white. I saw articles all over the place about: www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2016/11/07/doctor-strange-whitewashing-ancient-one-tilda-swinton-fan-critical-reaction/93416130/I think they meant updating it so it doesn't feel like an extremely recycled archetype. In 1974 the idea of a well-off white kid being trained in the "ancient and mysterious" ways was actually a novel thing. Not ENTIRELY ground-breaking or anything as Batman, The Phantom, Tarzan, etc etc all played similar ideas, but it was a hook that comic publishers could sell more than "Asian guy does marital arts well." Now, it's just hackneyed. At least if Iron Fist were an American-Born Chinese (still, I vote for bi-racial) it would put a new twist on things that makes it actually feel like something written for 2017. A privileged Chinese kid with no connection to his culture living in America. Then ends up in K'un-L'un where they don't really accept him because he acts "too American." Stuff like that at least feels SOMEWHAT less dated to me.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 15, 2017 18:07:05 GMT -5
They are updating it, everyone involved has said so. You're implying that the only way to update it would have been to change Danny's race, which is a really hollow way to pretend you've updated something when in all reality you just race-swapped. Where was this vitriol from the internet media when Marvel took two prominent Asian characters in The Mandarin and The Ancient One and made them white? I thought everyone lost their shit over the Ancient One being white. I saw articles all over the place about: www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2016/11/07/doctor-strange-whitewashing-ancient-one-tilda-swinton-fan-critical-reaction/93416130/I think they meant updating it so it doesn't feel like an extremely recycled archetype. In 1974 the idea of a well-off white kid being trained in the "ancient and mysterious" ways was actually a novel thing. Not ENTIRELY ground-breaking or anything as Batman, The Phantom, Tarzan, etc etc all played similar ideas, but it was a hook that comic publishers could see more than "Asian guy does marital arts well." Now, it's just hackneyed. At least if Iron Fist were an American-Born Chinese (still, I vote for bi-racial) it would put a new twist on things that makes it actually feel like something written for 2017. A privileged Chinese kid with no connection to his culture living in America. Then ends up in K'un-L'un where they don't really accept him because he acts "too American." Stuff like that at least feels SOMEWHAT less dated to me. Fair enough, but I think it limits future possibilities. My biggest reason for wanting Danny to remain white was his future pairing with Luke Cage. There's something awesome about the relationship between a working class black guy from Harlem and a rich trust fund white kid. You'd lose a little bit of the beauty of that friendship if Danny were also a minority, rich or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 18:10:03 GMT -5
I thought everyone lost their shit over the Ancient One being white. I saw articles all over the place about: www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2016/11/07/doctor-strange-whitewashing-ancient-one-tilda-swinton-fan-critical-reaction/93416130/I think they meant updating it so it doesn't feel like an extremely recycled archetype. In 1974 the idea of a well-off white kid being trained in the "ancient and mysterious" ways was actually a novel thing. Not ENTIRELY ground-breaking or anything as Batman, The Phantom, Tarzan, etc etc all played similar ideas, but it was a hook that comic publishers could see more than "Asian guy does marital arts well." Now, it's just hackneyed. At least if Iron Fist were an American-Born Chinese (still, I vote for bi-racial) it would put a new twist on things that makes it actually feel like something written for 2017. A privileged Chinese kid with no connection to his culture living in America. Then ends up in K'un-L'un where they don't really accept him because he acts "too American." Stuff like that at least feels SOMEWHAT less dated to me. Fair enough, but I think it limits future possibilities. My biggest reason for wanting Danny to remain white was his future pairing with Luke Cage. There's something awesome about the relationship between a working class black guy from Harlem and a rich trust fund white kid. You'd lose a little bit of the beauty of that friendship if Danny were also a minority, rich or not. I agree, it does limit in some ways. But opens it up in others. I mean, how many shows/comics or whatever have you seen where the two leads are a working class black guy and Richie Rich Asian guy. There's a lot of possibilities there. haha, I mean the closest we ever got was ...what? Romeo Must Die? oof. The culture/class clash still has some good legs from that one I think.
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Post by Long A, Short A on Mar 15, 2017 18:40:45 GMT -5
Part of being invited or keeping your invite to the cookout is knowing those super immanent black references.
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Mackenzie Gorn
Don Corleone
I want my personal title back, but I don't know how!
AND THE WAVE OF POSSESIONS DEVOLVE INTO A CHEVY!
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Post by Mackenzie Gorn on Mar 15, 2017 19:18:13 GMT -5
Fair enough, but I think it limits future possibilities. My biggest reason for wanting Danny to remain white was his future pairing with Luke Cage. There's something awesome about the relationship between a working class black guy from Harlem and a rich trust fund white kid. You'd lose a little bit of the beauty of that friendship if Danny were also a minority, rich or not. I agree, it does limit in some ways. But opens it up in others. I mean, how many shows/comics or whatever have you seen where the two leads are a working class black guy and Richie Rich Asian guy. There's a lot of possibilities there. haha, I mean the closest we ever got was ...what? Romeo Must Die? oof. The culture/class clash still has some good legs from that one I think.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Mar 15, 2017 19:26:35 GMT -5
They are updating it, everyone involved has said so. You're implying that the only way to update it would have been to change Danny's race, which is a really hollow way to pretend you've updated something when in all reality you just race-swapped. Where was this vitriol from the internet media when Marvel took two prominent Asian characters in The Mandarin and The Ancient One and made them white? I thought everyone lost their shit over the Ancient One being white. I saw articles all over the place about: www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2016/11/07/doctor-strange-whitewashing-ancient-one-tilda-swinton-fan-critical-reaction/93416130/I think they meant updating it so it doesn't feel like an extremely recycled archetype. In 1974 the idea of a well-off white kid being trained in the "ancient and mysterious" ways was actually a novel thing. Not ENTIRELY ground-breaking or anything as Batman, The Phantom, Tarzan, etc etc all played similar ideas, but it was a hook that comic publishers could sell more than "Asian guy does marital arts well." Now, it's just hackneyed. At least if Iron Fist were an American-Born Chinese (still, I vote for bi-racial) it would put a new twist on things that makes it actually feel like something written for 2017. A privileged Chinese kid with no connection to his culture living in America. Then ends up in K'un-L'un where they don't really accept him because he acts "too American." Stuff like that at least feels SOMEWHAT less dated to me. That's.....actually not a bad idea at all. I think I'll probably give the show a chance anyway, but that would be a less cliched idea and it does feel more contemporary. You could still make a pairing with Luke Cage work with a biracial Danny.
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Mackenzie Gorn
Don Corleone
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AND THE WAVE OF POSSESIONS DEVOLVE INTO A CHEVY!
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Post by Mackenzie Gorn on Mar 16, 2017 0:00:40 GMT -5
Dr Strange too. Kinda I have this thing now where I'm kinda over "trust-fund superheroes." Like, "oh you're rich and have every opportunity to do nothing but learn to be a hero? The struggle is real....." At least with some of the X-Men they COULDN'T get normal jobs because society turned them away. Ive been turned off as a whole from superhero stuff sadly. The craze being bugger than ever has created an over saturated market creating these problems as well as general audiences thinking they are experts with video game or movie knowledge. I walked into walmart one day and could not stonach all of the stuff I usually would be happy to buy. So much general merch just staring at me. It made me sad. That's a dumb reason. Like I get that it's your and more power too you but seeing something that you like get popular enough that you drop it is really dumb. Especially when your reasoning basically boils down to ''Too many posers my dude.'' Something you like having merch making you sad must lead to you really being depressed ESPECIALLY in walmart.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Mar 16, 2017 2:07:47 GMT -5
*Goes into thread hoping for more hype for one of my favorite marvel heroes* *sees posts about controversies regarding race and what not* *slowly backs out*
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 3:03:03 GMT -5
To try and turn it away from the race thing a bit... I'm more wondering about the detail I'm seeing a lot of reviews saying that the show is completely aimless and paint-by-numbers. That seems really hard to manage in a show like this that's supposed to be making the last real push to a big team-up story.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 16, 2017 5:47:01 GMT -5
the race thing isn't a real criticism. he's white in the source material and making the kung fu guy asian would IMO be even more racist. if you're going to criticize something criticize it on its own merits, not some faux-racist moral outrage.
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