|
Post by Stu on Dec 24, 2016 16:11:19 GMT -5
For this discussion, let's focus on the concept instead of the execution. Ignore the dialogue, acting and crummy plot devices and only look to the general story. Here's what we know:
1: Anakin Skywalker was born on Tatooine and grew up as a slave
2: He was discovered by a Jedi and brought to the Jedi Order, where there was concern that he was too old to begin training.
3: He trained as a Jedi, but was impatient and had a thirst for power. He also broke tradition and fell in love.
4: Palpatine took advantage of Anakin's unstable nature and coerced him to follow the Dark Side to save his wife
5: Anakin wiped out many Jedi and faced Obi Wan Kenobi
5: He lost his limbs just before his entire body was set ablaze.
6: Anakin was rebuilt as an angry lord of the Sith.
Does all that sound okay to you?
|
|
|
Post by Mister Pigwell on Dec 24, 2016 16:12:14 GMT -5
Yeah.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 16:35:15 GMT -5
This is the thing, the actual concept and reasoning for the fall of Anakin was amazing. A child thrust into a position where he's repeatedly told how powerful he is, isn't powerful enough to do what he wants to. An angry, emotional child who is then taught he must suppress and ignore these things until it's too much. Its really classical, grandiose themes that builds a perfext reason for his fall to the darkside. Hell the last moment on Mustafar is perfect, as he's giving in to his anger and his feeling of being powerless. He pushed himself and in the moment of truth, again he failed.
Pity the actual execution of that story was as piss poor as it was.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 24, 2016 16:53:49 GMT -5
I see it more like this...
1- Anakin Skywalker was born on Tatooine and grew up as a relatively happy shop worker and mechanic who was allowed to indulge his love of racing, and lived with his mother in a reasonably comfortable home, under the ownership of a pleasant enough independent trader.
2- He was won by a Jedi who unethically cheated in an alleged game of chance, and was brought to the Jedi Order, who were more concerned about his age, rather than his obvious skill, foreboding future, and the fact that active slavery was taking place on a planet they cared nothing about.
3- His mother spends ten years on the highly dangerous Tatooine run by gangsters and plagued by slavery and violent desert raiders for reasons never explained. Apparently the Naboo never even offered to buy her freedom, despite her son saving their planet, and if they did, it was turned down for reasons never explained.
4- He trained as a Jedi and had access to the highest, most refined, and elite levels of Coruscant society, but was impatient for something never explained and inexplicably threw tantrums for undetermined reasons. He also broke a Jedi tradition that mass murderers are not allowed to marry sociopathic Nabooian senators who care nothing about the horrific crimes of their fiancees.
5- Palpatine took advantage of Anakin's stupidity by vaguely telling him that he can stop his wife from dying if he agrees to violently murder everyone he's told to murder in order to save his wife from a premonition of her death, just like the ones he had about his mother, who surprisingly was killed on the highly dangerous Tatooine by violent desert raiders. If only there was a giant city planet filled with Jedi that she may have been safer living on.
6- Anakin commits mass murder for a second time because an old man says this is necessary to save one woman. Just to make sure she'll be completely safe, he also murders children, who are well known as being a serious threat to Naboo women. He is then told that the old man doesn't even know how to stop Anakin's wife from dying. Anakin doesn't automatically kill the old man for being a liar, but agrees to kill even more people, then fight the person who has spent the last ten years being his mentor. Anakin then tries to kill his wife, the very same woman he murdered countless children to protect.
7- Anakin loses the fight and gets burned. His wife dies because she wants to die and has nothing to live for, despite giving birth to two children who presumably need a loving mother in their lives. Anakin is told by the old man that his wife is dead, and despite never actually seeing her die, decides to never even check in order to verify the claims of the old man who previously lied to him. He then spends the next twenty years murdering even more people.
|
|
|
Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 24, 2016 17:11:58 GMT -5
I've never liked the immaculate conception idea.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 18:25:11 GMT -5
I can't blame the guy. Even if someone told me I wasn't supposed to fall in love with Natalie Portman I probably would anyway.
|
|
The Unconquered Sun
King Koopa
He has no pants! What a heathen!
Lord of Storms and Kittens!
Posts: 11,548
|
Post by The Unconquered Sun on Dec 24, 2016 19:44:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't say coerced, more like bamboozled. Anakin was afraid of Padme dying, but had no way of knowing for sure it would happen, while Palpatine told him he could solve Anakin's delimea without any proof what so ever.
|
|
|
Post by simplydurhamcalling on Dec 24, 2016 20:23:40 GMT -5
I see it more like this... 1- Anakin Skywalker was born on Tatooine and grew up as a relatively happy shop worker and mechanic who was allowed to indulge his love of racing, and lived with his mother in a reasonably comfortable home, under the ownership of a pleasant enough independent trader. 2- He was won by a Jedi who unethically cheated in an alleged game of chance, and was brought to the Jedi Order, who were more concerned about his age, rather than his obvious skill, foreboding future, and the fact that active slavery was taking place on a planet they cared nothing about. 3- His mother spends ten years on the highly dangerous Tatooine run by gangsters and plagued by slavery and violent desert raiders for reasons never explained. Apparently the Naboo never even offered to buy her freedom, despite her son saving their planet, and if they did, it was turned down for reasons never explained. 4- He trained as a Jedi and had access to the highest, most refined, and elite levels of Coruscant society, but was impatient for something never explained and inexplicably threw tantrums for undetermined reasons. He also broke a Jedi tradition that mass murderers are not allowed to marry sociopathic Nabooian senators who care nothing about the horrific crimes of their fiancees. 5- Palpatine took advantage of Anakin's stupidity by vaguely telling him that he can stop his wife from dying if he agrees to violently murder everyone he's told to murder in order to save his wife from a premonition of her death, just like the ones he had about his mother, who surprisingly was killed on the highly dangerous Tatooine by violent desert raiders. If only there was a giant city planet filled with Jedi that she may have safer living on. 6- Anakin commits mass murder for a second time because an old man says this is necessary to save one woman. Just to make sure she'll be completely safe, he also murders children, who are well known as being a serious threat to Naboo women. He is then told that the old man doesn't even know how to stop Anakin's wife from dying. Anakin doesn't automatically kill the old man for being a liar, but agrees to kill even more people, then fight the person who has spent the last ten years being his mentor. Anakin then tries to kill his wife, the very same woman he murdered countless children to protect. 7- Anakin loses the fight and gets burned. His wife dies because she wants to die and has nothing to live for, despite giving birth to two children who presumably need a loving mother in their lives. Anakin is told by the old man that his wife is dead, and despite never actually seeing her die, decides to never even check in order to verify the claims of the old man who previously lied to him. He then spends the next twenty years murdering even more people. Well when you put it like that...
|
|
pegasuswarrior
El Dandy
Three Time FAN Idol Champion
@PulpPictionary
Posts: 8,748
|
Post by pegasuswarrior on Dec 24, 2016 20:25:13 GMT -5
I've never liked the immaculate conception idea. That's not *my* Darth Vader. [/InternetVoice]
|
|
BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
|
Post by BigBadZ on Dec 24, 2016 20:50:29 GMT -5
I wouldn't say coerced, more like bamboozled. Anakin was afraid of Padme dying, but had no way of knowing for sure it would happen, while Palpatine told him he could solve Anakin's delimea without any proof what so ever. "Anakin, I have a great opportunity! Do you want to make money?!?! I'm a Space Nigerian prince just simply send a small up front payment 5,000 Republic Credits and I'll give you 500,000 Republic Credits! It's really that easy!!"
|
|
Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,316
|
Post by Lupin the Third on Dec 24, 2016 21:13:05 GMT -5
We forgot the part where Mace Windu was like, "SAY WHAT AGAIN!!!! I DARE YOU!!!!! I DOUBLE DARE YOU, MOTHERF***ER!!! SAY WHAT ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME!!!!"
|
|
|
Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Dec 24, 2016 23:49:01 GMT -5
Yeah. That's the gist of it.
Before the prequels I always imagined Anakin to be closer to Obi-Wans age. And more of a Han Solo type.
|
|
|
Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 25, 2016 0:02:43 GMT -5
I've never liked the immaculate conception idea. That's not *my* Darth Vader. [/InternetVoice] It just brings a lot of Judeo-Christian symbolism into a universe where people solve their conflicts by trying to hit each other with laser swords. Anakin could have simply been some random joblo Jedi who ends up assigned to protect a queen and by serendipity the two fall in love. But instead he's saddled with the baggage that affects a lot of messianic characters. As is, the layers of divinity Lucas added seem unnecessary. Anakin isn't special just because he became a Sith, betrayed the Jedi, and killed anyone who got in his way, he's also special because magical microscopic organisms willed him into being.
|
|
Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,714
|
Post by Glitch on Dec 25, 2016 1:46:03 GMT -5
Anakin should have been a straight laced, apple polisher who excelled at everything. Makes more sense if you think about it.
It would fit with how Obi Wan described him to Luke. Obi Wan describes Anakin as this awesome hero who "died" and became Vader. And Anakin feeling betrayed and disillusioned by the Jedi is a lot heavier of an impact on someone who is a dedicated,respectful follower of the Jedi way, than someone who whines all the time.
I think Anakin should have been an orphan who worked his way out of the orphanage( and life of poverty), and into a pilot academy. Where he met Jedi trainers who discovered his force skills. He becomes a hard working Jedi and eventually joins them on missions. A clone uprising happens( a lot of us thought this might have been what the "clone wars" were) and they attack all over the galaxy trying to take over. Anakin wants to go back to his home planet where the orphanage is to protect the people he had known there. Instead, the Jedi want him on a key battlefield. His home planet is massacred, and he blames himself for not being there. But slowly blames the Jedi instead.
Boom. Not that hard to give him a good motivation, Mr. Plaid McBeardFace.
|
|
|
Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Dec 25, 2016 2:34:07 GMT -5
Anakin should have been a straight laced, apple polisher who excelled at everything. Makes more sense if you think about it. It would fit with how Obi Wan described him to Luke. Obi Wan describes Anakin as this awesome hero who "died" and became Vader. And Anakin feeling betrayed and disillusioned by the Jedi is a lot heavier of an impact on someone who is a dedicated,respectful follower of the Jedi way, than someone who whines all the time. I think Anakin should have been an orphan who worked his way out of the orphanage( and life of poverty), and into a pilot academy. Where he met Jedi trainers who discovered his force skills. He becomes a hard working Jedi and eventually joins them on missions. A clone uprising happens( a lot of us thought this might have been what the "clone wars" were) and they attack all over the galaxy trying to take over. Anakin wants to go back to his home planet where the orphanage is to protect the people he had known there. Instead, the Jedi want him on a key battlefield. His home planet is massacred, and he blames himself for not being there. But slowly blames the Jedi instead. Boom. Not that hard to give him a good motivation, Mr. Plaid McBeardFace. That's how I thought Anakin would be portrayed like for years.
|
|
|
Post by Cela on Dec 25, 2016 3:40:37 GMT -5
Hoesntly, even with the crap writing, his arch sort of makes sense, even up to the point where Palpatine transforms into a cackling lightning shooter with a voice that Bale Batman would say is a little too much. But then he slaughters kids. Couldn't have had the clones do that Georgey?
How about something instead like the Jedi find pregnant Padme, put 2 and 2 together, and then take her away to prevent heresy or some shit. Make them Lawful Good fanatic type villains. Then he has more of a motivation to lash out at them beyond some vague "Have to save Padme!"
|
|
pegasuswarrior
El Dandy
Three Time FAN Idol Champion
@PulpPictionary
Posts: 8,748
|
Post by pegasuswarrior on Dec 25, 2016 6:26:09 GMT -5
Yeah. That's the gist of it. Before the prequels I always imagined Anakin to be closer to Obi-Wans age. And more of a Han Solo type. I still do. Prequels are bogus garbage. I think Vince must've been in the room, saying "They like this; now destroy everything they love, destroy it with fire!" (which is where the lava planet idea came from). I liken the prequels to those really crappy murder series docudramas where the story is told through reenactments with a bunch of lies flavored for television thrown in. So, for me, I just view Episodes I-III as fluff filler in the vein of "what might've happened if we had footage of it, but we don't, so here is something pieced together before the commercial break." Like, literally, I don't know how anyone can watch Rogue One and imagine Hayden Christiansen under that suit. I promise, not up until this very moment did I even consider that some people actually are doing that. It's not the same character for me. There is no way Twilight Edward Anakin is the Rogue One Darth Vader. And that's how I'll keep it in my head. Prequels are just the soap operas that Housewives of Coruscant County watch and talk about over cucumber water at the space salon. EDIT: (In before ]quote[ above: Reply: "But it is him. Canon" Yadda yadda. It is just so much easier to treat the prequels like a cheap reenactment series rather than try to make that galaxy fit into the real Star Wars galaxy. And that's how I'll continue to handle it.)
|
|
|
Post by Sparvid on Dec 25, 2016 7:22:10 GMT -5
His mother spends ten years on the highly dangerous Tatooine run by gangsters and plagued by slavery and violent desert raiders for reasons never explained. Apparently the Naboo never even offered to buy her freedom, despite her son saving their planet, and if they did, it was turned down for reasons never explained. I've never really thought about that. Watto refuses to put up both of them in the game, saying that "no pod is worth two slaves," but he is willing to put up Anakin only, so whatever slaves are worth, it's not like they're 100% completely invaluable. So I don't see any reason why he would turn down an offer of a bunch of money or trade her for a spaceship or something. If Watto needs at least one slave in order to run his business, he could always just buy a new one.
|
|
|
Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Dec 25, 2016 12:19:17 GMT -5
His mother spends ten years on the highly dangerous Tatooine run by gangsters and plagued by slavery and violent desert raiders for reasons never explained. Apparently the Naboo never even offered to buy her freedom, despite her son saving their planet, and if they did, it was turned down for reasons never explained. I've never really thought about that. Watto refuses to put up both of them in the game, saying that "no pod is worth two slaves," but he is willing to put up Anakin only, so whatever slaves are worth, it's not like they're 100% completely invaluable. So I don't see any reason why he would turn down an offer of a bunch of money or trade her for a spaceship or something. If Watto needs at least one slave in order to run his business, he could always just buy a new one. It's not like she helped with his shop in he first place, unless doing her own dishes in a cozy little hut is somehow the crux of Wattos business.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,034
|
Post by Mozenrath on Dec 25, 2016 13:37:12 GMT -5
His mother spends ten years on the highly dangerous Tatooine run by gangsters and plagued by slavery and violent desert raiders for reasons never explained. Apparently the Naboo never even offered to buy her freedom, despite her son saving their planet, and if they did, it was turned down for reasons never explained. I've never really thought about that. Watto refuses to put up both of them in the game, saying that "no pod is worth two slaves," but he is willing to put up Anakin only, so whatever slaves are worth, it's not like they're 100% completely invaluable. So I don't see any reason why he would turn down an offer of a bunch of money or trade her for a spaceship or something. If Watto needs at least one slave in order to run his business, he could always just buy a new one. Watto may have just been spiteful enough to refuse to sell her, but that doesn't really explain why he wasn't confiscated. Isn't slavery explicitly illegal? Even if the Republic never steps in on Tatooine business, they still ostensibly could when convenient for them. It's possible Palpatine simply stymied any efforts to do that, since it isn't like she would be convenient for his plans, but I don't know when his interest in Anakin would have began.
|
|