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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Apr 3, 2017 23:26:15 GMT -5
This is getting as bad as I've ever seen it. In the space of 24 hours I've seen the guy be labelled "a cancer to WWE", "worse than polio" and a "holocaust denier"... All because he wins a lot of wrestling matches and others don't.
(I emphasise that because, let's be honest, there are guys on that roster with characters just as ill-fitting and bad that don't even get one millionth of the bile and venom because they're only midcarders or tag guys or cruiserweights)
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Post by Rolent Tex on Apr 3, 2017 23:27:41 GMT -5
What boggles my mind is that they had him basically retire Taker...which makes him an uber heel. They had Indie darlings in Rollins, Owens, Joe and a returning Balor.
Why in the hell did they not have him cement the heel turn and just run in late in the match and indiscriminately just wreck shit? Piss all over Balor's welcome back party. Mock the fans after. Instead they're keeping the damn course.
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Post by Error on Apr 3, 2017 23:35:53 GMT -5
Remember what they made sure to stress all night: these were the non-traditional fans, they hate what is good, you traditional fans keep cheering like the good boys and girls you are. They took that entire segment and used it as a f*** off to any one that doesn't buy into their way of doing things. Except that's the line they've used for the crowd since BEFORE Reigns showed up. Which is why I put zero stock into it whatsoever. Hell, they used it the whole damn night, not just for the one segment. They made a point on numerous occasions to say this specific audience was non-traditional to explain why they didn't follow the WWE narrative. It has nothing to do with past weeks, they specifically said that about tonight to explain away everything. Beachball-mania, non-traditional. Singing for Cesaro and Sheamus, non-traditional. Telling Roman in clear as day chants to f*** off, non-traditional. Tell Vince when he is introducing Kurt Angle that they hate Roman, non-traditional. They were very specific on singling out those actions as not representative of a traditional WWE audience.
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Post by BME on Apr 3, 2017 23:49:33 GMT -5
Someone told me that Jeff Jarrett's push in 2000 WCW wasn't as forced as the Roman Reigns push because Jarrett had more credibility at the time.
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Gus Richlen: Ruffian
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Post by Gus Richlen: Ruffian on Apr 3, 2017 23:52:28 GMT -5
Except that's the line they've used for the crowd since BEFORE Reigns showed up. Which is why I put zero stock into it whatsoever. Hell, they used it the whole damn night, not just for the one segment. They made a point on numerous occasions to say this specific audience was non-traditional to explain why they didn't follow the WWE narrative. It has nothing to do with past weeks, they specifically said that about tonight to explain away everything. Beachball-mania, non-traditional. Singing for Cesaro and Sheamus, non-traditional. Telling Roman in clear as day chants to f*** off, non-traditional. Tell Vince when he is introducing Kurt Angle that they hate Roman, non-traditional. They were very specific on singling out those actions as not representative of a traditional WWE audience. Still don't think the commentary should be taken seriously here. Every indicator from Reigns is that the turn is finally happening. Maybe slower than a lot of people would like, but it's happening.
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Post by xCompackx on Apr 3, 2017 23:54:32 GMT -5
I'm to the point where I don't think they have a clue what's going on anymore. Roman's character, if you could even call it that, fluctuates so much in terms of motivations, alignment, and emotional state that it's starting to feel less like one single person called Roman Reigns and more like a brand of different personas in some weird marketing scheme designed to sell as much merchandise as possible before it crumbles.
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Post by saintpat on Apr 3, 2017 23:55:10 GMT -5
Someone told me that Jeff Jarrett's push in 2000 WCW wasn't as forced as the Roman Reigns push because Jarrett had more credibility at the time. I said from the very start that instead of coming in through the stands with the Shield that Roman should have trotted in on a blinking horse. But did they listen?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 23:56:53 GMT -5
Except that's the line they've used for the crowd since BEFORE Reigns showed up. Which is why I put zero stock into it whatsoever. Hell, they used it the whole damn night, not just for the one segment. They made a point on numerous occasions to say this specific audience was non-traditional to explain why they didn't follow the WWE narrative. It has nothing to do with past weeks, they specifically said that about tonight to explain away everything. Beachball-mania, non-traditional. Singing for Cesaro and Sheamus, non-traditional. Telling Roman in clear as day chants to f*** off, non-traditional. Tell Vince when he is introducing Kurt Angle that they hate Roman, non-traditional. They were very specific on singling out those actions as not representative of a traditional WWE audience. Non-traditional can is such a soft term isn't it? Getting upset at that is like a father telling someone his son is "a bit of a prankster" and the son responding "oh my God why do you have me so much?" It's such an elder person who doesn't understand kids thing to say and how many fans throw beach balls around during matches? Post-mania crowds are so obviously different from most that they would be silly to pretend it's business as usual.
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Post by Error on Apr 4, 2017 0:00:53 GMT -5
They made a point on numerous occasions to say this specific audience was non-traditional to explain why they didn't follow the WWE narrative. It has nothing to do with past weeks, they specifically said that about tonight to explain away everything. Beachball-mania, non-traditional. Singing for Cesaro and Sheamus, non-traditional. Telling Roman in clear as day chants to f*** off, non-traditional. Tell Vince when he is introducing Kurt Angle that they hate Roman, non-traditional. They were very specific on singling out those actions as not representative of a traditional WWE audience. Non-traditional can is such a soft term isn't it? Getting upset at that is like a father telling someone his son is "a bit of a prankster" and the son responding "oh my God why do you have me so much?" It's such an elder person who doesn't understand kids thing to say and how many fans throw beach balls around during matches? Post-mania crowds are so obviously different from most that they would be silly to pretend it's business as usual. Never said it has to be business as usual but to act like what they are doing (outside of the beachball stuff) doesn't happen all year long paints a picture of what they think their fans should be doing. I find that sad. It'd be like saying a Photoshop/paint thread is out of the ordinary and strange to try and put an end to them.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 4, 2017 0:01:04 GMT -5
My friend, who doesn't watch wrestling, saw some people talking about Wrestlemania on Facebook today. She asked me later, "Who is Roman Reigns, and why does everybody hate him? Is he like an evil foreign guy, or something?"
Awesome crossover appeal you got with that dude, WWE.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Apr 4, 2017 0:05:31 GMT -5
My friend, who doesn't watch wrestling, saw some people talking about Wrestlemania on Facebook today. She asked me later, "Who is Roman Reigns, and why does everybody hate him? Is he like an evil foreign guy, or something?" Awesome crossover appeal you got with that dude, WWE. Funny thing is, a lot of the answers may be "Because he always beat the evil foreign guy".
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Post by xCompackx on Apr 4, 2017 0:05:59 GMT -5
I don't even buy the idea that post-Mania crowds are that far removed from regular ones once you take away the reputation for post-Mania episodes of Raw and the expectation that the crowds will be more crazy. I mean, WWE's only cared about post-Mania crowds for a few years and it's not like these same people aren't attending other shows.
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Post by schma on Apr 4, 2017 0:07:46 GMT -5
I might be wrong here but for a long time a lot of people were saying Roman needed to go back to silent badass and/or he needed to go heel. Now he could definitely have shown a lot more fire but standing out there for fifteen minutes or however long (I only saw a clip) while people boo him and then responding with "It's my yard now" seems a step in the right direction. The line could have been better and it could have been delivered better but he wasn't smiling, joking or doing anything else that could be construed as faceish in anyone's eyes. Did he turn heel here? Not really but it's a step in the right direction. Talk less, act more and you're on your way.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 4, 2017 0:10:47 GMT -5
My friend, who doesn't watch wrestling, saw some people talking about Wrestlemania on Facebook today. She asked me later, "Who is Roman Reigns, and why does everybody hate him? Is he like an evil foreign guy, or something?" Awesome crossover appeal you got with that dude, WWE. Funny thing is, a lot of the answers may be "Because he always beat the evil foreign guy". I explained it, like, when you present one guy as better than everyone, everyone he fights is an underdog, and people's natural sympathy for underdogs can override other unlikeable things about them (especially when those things are cringily outdated). The thing is, she just refused to wrap her head around the idea that the WWE hasn't completely intended for him to be a bad guy all this time. She kept trying to ask about storyline reasons why he was so despised.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Apr 4, 2017 0:20:27 GMT -5
I'm to the point where I don't think they have a clue what's going on anymore. Roman's character, if you could even call it that, fluctuates so much in terms of motivations, alignment, and emotional state that it's starting to feel less like one single person called Roman Reigns and more like a brand of different personas in some weird marketing scheme designed to sell as much merchandise as possible before it crumbles. They have the idea that they need a massively popular headliner like Cena who's significant enough that he'll appeal to and draw in audiences beyond the insular core of diehard fans. They have a checklist of various things relating to his looks/mannerisms/etc that this headliner should have. They like guys who are multigenerational stars because they're less likely to decide to ditch pro wrestling for some other, less-exploitative career that won't wreck their bodies so bad. And they especially like a guy who's related to THE ROCK because it means someday THE ROCK might be persuaded to come back and work a match against him and make lots of money. And that's all they have. None of that is a character, or even the vague semblance of a character. It's like how WWE's heels all become heatless vacuums of apathy sooner or later, because the writers can never decide whether they're vicious brutes or cowardly cheaters, so they interchangeably get scripted as both from week to week. It's an endless series of troupes that worked back in the '80s and '90s being perpetually regurgitated without the faintest understanding of what made them work in the first place.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 4, 2017 0:22:48 GMT -5
This is getting as bad as I've ever seen it. In the space of 24 hours I've seen the guy be labelled "a cancer to WWE", "worse than polio" and a "holocaust denier"... All because he wins a lot of wrestling matches and others don't. (I emphasise that because, let's be honest, there are guys on that roster with characters just as ill-fitting and bad that don't even get one millionth of the bile and venom because they're only midcarders or tag guys or cruiserweights) Im not even that bad. That's very overboard, but I saw this coming, big time. With him beating Taker and the possibility of not only him not changing his character at all, but also being shot straight into a Universal Title match when not only should Goldberg have a rematch but Balor never lost the belt and should also be entitled to a rematch, and the match was unsurprisingly shit on by the crowd and Heyman couldn't salvage it.
I don't know if Vince took anything tonight to heart but it's only going to get worse, the dude basically retired the spirit of the company and a forever face to so many wrestling fans. This isn't something a "I did what I had to do" brush off is gonna fix. He's not Brock Lesnar either. Dude needs to either go heel, or his career is in the toilet no matter how many false titles you give him.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 4, 2017 0:30:57 GMT -5
I'm to the point where I don't think they have a clue what's going on anymore. Roman's character, if you could even call it that, fluctuates so much in terms of motivations, alignment, and emotional state that it's starting to feel less like one single person called Roman Reigns and more like a brand of different personas in some weird marketing scheme designed to sell as much merchandise as possible before it crumbles. They have the idea that they need a massively popular headliner like Cena who's significant enough that he'll appeal to and draw in audiences beyond the insular core of diehard fans. They have a checklist of various things relating to his looks/mannerisms/etc that this headliner should have. They like guys who are multigenerational stars because they're less likely to decide to ditch pro wrestling for some other, less-exploitative career that won't wreck their bodies so bad. And they especially like a guy who's related to THE ROCK because it means someday THE ROCK might be persuaded to come back and work a match against him and make lots of money. And that's all they have. None of that is a character, or even the vague semblance of a character. It's like how WWE's heels all become heatless vacuums of apathy sooner or later, because the writers can never decide whether they're vicious brutes or cowardly cheaters, so they interchangeably get scripted as both from week to week. It's an endless series of troupes that worked back in the '80s and '90s being perpetually regurgitated without the faintest understanding of what made them work in the first place. It's not even with the main eventer, it's with other parts of the roster. Nobody gets called up because they look at the person and think of something there to do, but because they feel like they need someone who can be slotted into a role that was left by someone else and they can just carry on with what happened before. For example, they didn't call up Apollo Crews because they feel like he's capable of carrying a feud or they have something perfect for his style of work. They called him up because they needed a midcard face who they don't have to do much with except do athletic moves, just like other talent that took that role. There isn't the willingness to put the groundwork towards getting the characters to connect with the audience by looking at each person and seeing what they're good at, they just have scripts of archetypes that they hand to people that might as well be on crusted paper at this point with how old they are.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 4, 2017 0:55:39 GMT -5
This is getting as bad as I've ever seen it. In the space of 24 hours I've seen the guy be labelled "a cancer to WWE", "worse than polio" and a "holocaust denier"... All because he wins a lot of wrestling matches and others don't. (I emphasise that because, let's be honest, there are guys on that roster with characters just as ill-fitting and bad that don't even get one millionth of the bile and venom because they're only midcarders or tag guys or cruiserweights) & this is still more tame than I expected it to be
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Post by kingbookermark on Apr 4, 2017 2:10:37 GMT -5
Roman & the booking deserve all this hate equally. Roman failing to turn heel tonight on Raw is criminal. I will cut my network very soon if wwe continues to be so dim.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 4, 2017 2:18:17 GMT -5
This is getting as bad as I've ever seen it. In the space of 24 hours I've seen the guy be labelled "a cancer to WWE", "worse than polio" and a "holocaust denier"... All because he wins a lot of wrestling matches and others don't. (I emphasise that because, let's be honest, there are guys on that roster with characters just as ill-fitting and bad that don't even get one millionth of the bile and venom because they're only midcarders or tag guys or cruiserweights) & this is still more tame than I expected it to be I am genuinely stunned shit hasn't been thrown at Roman yet, either at Mania in ring, on ramp, or at RAW. WCW Style. I mean I don't want that to clarify, just shocked it hasn't happened.
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