Does Vince Get...

[ayumidah]

He doesn't care, same as when it was Cena getting lukewarm responses.

Their POV is "He gets SOME reaction, that works for us!"

[Nikki Heyman]

Mar 9, 2017 12:27:38 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Mar 9, 2017 12:25:58 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

I think another part of the issue is that while Roman has a great look and is pretty solid in the ring, someone thought he had Rock level mic skills and gave him nonsensical crap that the Rock MIGHT be able to get over, but Roman can't.

Roman's done everything the office has asked of him, and done it well, short of those promos. They got him cheered in Philly, so it CAN be done.

He could just be an ass-kicke,rhe would still be rejected when pushed as he was.He just isn't good enough to be pushed that hard

I also think timing had a lot to do with it. Roman should have won the Rumble the year before (eliminating Batista) and people would have loved it. We might have gotten a lot of the same issues down the road, but THE push would have been better received.

[Dub H]

Mar 9, 2017 12:42:54 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

Mar 9, 2017 12:27:38 GMT -5 Dub H said:

He could just be an ass-kicke,rhe would still be rejected when pushed as he was.He just isn't good enough to be pushed that hard

I also think timing had a lot to do with it. Roman should have won the Rumble the year before (eliminating Batista) and people would have loved it. We might have gotten a lot of the same issues down the road, but THE push would have been better received.

Yeh,im not saying Roman couldnt be really popular if it wasnt for Vince.But he never would be this top dog, Hogan-Pushed babyface that becomes a mega star

[corndog]

Mar 9, 2017 12:05:22 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

The Philly crowd that raged at him winning the Rumble turned around and cheered him when he first won the title on an episode of Raw in the same exact venue; that tells you the fans don't despise Roman himself, they despise the way he's utilized.

If they don't turn him against the Undertaker, they're never turning him.

I agree on both points, it's not him it's the booking, and if they don't turn him on Undertaker, mainly he beats Undertaker and goes back to facing heels, not happening.

It is obvious the big problem is the booking, after Reigns was de-pushed following the wellness failure, his heat died. Then you have him go over Strowman and it is back to nuclear levels. The modern audience doesn't want their hero to be chosen for them, they want to chose that person themselves, this even goes back to Bret/Luger on lesser levels. After that you had them crap on Rock when he debuted, Austin got over by being a heel, ect. Hogan was catching lightening in a bottle and for some reason Vince keeps thinking he can do it again 30+ years later.

[Reflecto]

Mar 9, 2017 13:07:05 GMT -5 corndog said:

I agree on both points, it's not him it's the booking, and if they don't turn him on Undertaker, mainly he beats Undertaker and goes back to facing heels, not happening.

It is obvious the big problem is the booking, after Reigns was de-pushed following the wellness failure, his heat died. Then you have him go over Strowman and it is back to nuclear levels. The modern audience doesn't want their hero to be chosen for them, they want to chose that person themselves, this even goes back to Bret/Luger on lesser levels. After that you had them crap on Rock when he debuted, Austin got over by being a heel, ect. Hogan was catching lightening in a bottle and for some reason Vince keeps thinking he can do it again 30+ years later.

This is probably why the heel turn wouldn't even work.

Roman Reigns is just the latest in a line of people- Sheamus, Alberto Del Rio, Drew McIntyre, Jack Swagger- who ON PAPER were can't miss prospects...but yet, all of those people somehow managed to MISS, and a large part of why they missed was because it leaked to the fanbase that WWE WANTED THEM to be the Next Guy, and the fans took that as a challenge to their own wishes...and as a result, all of them struggled to get the crowd to care about them. End result is three ended up plateauing as midcarders until leaving the company, and Sheamus is still employed, but just as a midcarder.

It's worse with Reigns since the closest time the fans got to making their hero chosen had coincided with Reigns being marked as the next one- so it's worse there. The fans will NEVER give WWE Roman Reigns because it was made a plot point "if you accept Roman Reigns, you're inherently stabbing your personal favorite in the back and they'll NEVER get the big push."

So no. No, a heel turn won't work...the fans will just go dead silent for Roman Reigns and give him the reactions of those four. And nothing will work except maybe releasing Reigns, letting him run roughshod on the indy scene and Japan for a year or so, come back to WWE- possibly immediately going from NXT, and working his way up the ladder (similar to how Drew Galloway's revitalized his image and been saved as a potential star.)

[Bub (BLM)]

Is anyone else disappointed that there wasn't just a picture of Chris Jericho and the word "IT" when they opened the thread?

[Dub H]

Mar 9, 2017 13:37:26 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Mar 9, 2017 13:07:05 GMT -5 corndog said:

I agree on both points, it's not him it's the booking, and if they don't turn him on Undertaker, mainly he beats Undertaker and goes back to facing heels, not happening.

It is obvious the big problem is the booking, after Reigns was de-pushed following the wellness failure, his heat died. Then you have him go over Strowman and it is back to nuclear levels. The modern audience doesn't want their hero to be chosen for them, they want to chose that person themselves, this even goes back to Bret/Luger on lesser levels. After that you had them crap on Rock when he debuted, Austin got over by being a heel, ect. Hogan was catching lightening in a bottle and for some reason Vince keeps thinking he can do it again 30+ years later.

This is probably why the heel turn wouldn't even work.
rew McIntyre, Jack Swagger

These two are completely different. Drew was pushed but not as much,just a mid-carder that didnt live to expectations,he was never cheered or booed that much and was slowly pushed down. Jack Swagger got over and got buried left and right every time.

The other 3 are the definition of pushed down the throat

[Nikki Heyman]

Mar 9, 2017 12:29:34 GMT -5 ayumidah said:

He doesn't care, same as when it was Cena getting lukewarm responses.

Their POV is "He gets SOME reaction, that works for us!"

Cena gets the mixed reactions and sells tons of merch, so until people quiet down and stop buying his stuff he'll never go away. That's why he's willing to acknowledge the haters because "You still got something to say about [Cena], so keep it up!"

Reigns is getting the mixed reactions but I don't know much about his merch numbers. BUT, he is getting a reaction - something that Swagger managed to do for a bit with his dorky athlete character, but never got close to it again until he was tag-teaming with Cesaro and managed by Zeb.

Big E would have been an interesting case because he does have a certain amount of charisma but the schtick he's doing even within the New Day can be just as groan-worthy as some of the stupid promos Roman was handed. 

Drew and Del Rio suffered more from booking than anything else. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - until people STOP reacting, no matter how, Roman's not getting out of the big picture. People need to Conway pop him to get him off the big stage.

[Dub H]

Mar 9, 2017 14:00:29 GMT -5 Nikki Heyman said:

Mar 9, 2017 12:29:34 GMT -5 ayumidah said:

He doesn't care, same as when it was Cena getting lukewarm responses.

Their POV is "He gets SOME reaction, that works for us!"

Cena gets the mixed reactions and sells tons of merch, so until people quiet down and stop buying his stuff he'll never go away. That's why he's willing to acknowledge the haters because "You still got something to say about [Cena], so keep it up!"

Reigns is getting the mixed reactions but I don't know much about his merch numbers. BUT, he is getting a reaction - something that Swagger managed to do for a bit with his dorky athlete character, but never got close to it again until he was tag-teaming with Cesaro and managed by Zeb.

Big E would have been an interesting case because he does have a certain amount of charisma but the schtick he's doing even within the New Day can be just as groan-worthy as some of the stupid promos Roman was handed. 

Drew and Del Rio suffered more from booking than anything else. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - until people STOP reacting, no matter how, Roman's not getting out of the big picture. People need to Conway pop him to get him off the big stage.

Apaprently(no official reports to show here thought)he sells well,but not as well as other top player ex: Ambrose and obviously Cena

[Nikki Heyman]

Mar 9, 2017 13:38:34 GMT -5 Bub (BLM) said:

Is anyone else disappointed that there wasn't just a picture of Chris Jericho and the word "IT" when they opened the thread?

allow me.....

[Lazy peon]

Don't you people get it? Vince knows exactly what he's doing. He's purposely making us hate Roman. Vince obviously thinks keeping Roman "face" will get him more heat, and therefore more money, than as a normal heel.

HE'S WORKING US ALL.

[Urfarkendarf]

Mar 9, 2017 4:48:06 GMT -5 @supersweetbotch said:

I'm under the conspiracy theory that Roman Reigns is a big Triple H guy. Triple H was the one who lobbied for Reigns to win The Rumble, to face Roman Reigns in the main event of Wrestlemania, putting him in The Shield instead of Ohno during CM Punk's initial proposal, and convinced Vince to end TLC 2015 with Roman Reigns beating down HHH. There's a Bret Hart criticizing Roman Reigns in turning into a Triple H kind of babyface wrestler in not selling, not selling pain for sympathy, and making bunch of explosive comebacks.

This is possible to be true, but at the end of the day Vince makes the call, even over HHH. Vince also is the one who has taken 2-3 years to pivot off of this.

It's on Vince to overrule decisions like this.

I don't get the "Triple H kind of babyface wrestler in not selling" comment. Triple H is a great seller and always has been, regardless of his alignment. It can be argued that his selling is what made so many of his matches in the late 90s/early 00s so good. There's not really a lot of comparison to be made between Triple H and Reigns in terms of skillset outside of the constant winning (Reign of Terror). Roman can't even cut a promo!

[corndog]

Mar 9, 2017 13:37:26 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Mar 9, 2017 13:07:05 GMT -5 corndog said:

I agree on both points, it's not him it's the booking, and if they don't turn him on Undertaker, mainly he beats Undertaker and goes back to facing heels, not happening.

It is obvious the big problem is the booking, after Reigns was de-pushed following the wellness failure, his heat died. Then you have him go over Strowman and it is back to nuclear levels. The modern audience doesn't want their hero to be chosen for them, they want to chose that person themselves, this even goes back to Bret/Luger on lesser levels. After that you had them crap on Rock when he debuted, Austin got over by being a heel, ect. Hogan was catching lightening in a bottle and for some reason Vince keeps thinking he can do it again 30+ years later.

This is probably why the heel turn wouldn't even work.

Roman Reigns is just the latest in a line of people- Sheamus, Alberto Del Rio, Drew McIntyre, Jack Swagger- who ON PAPER were can't miss prospects...but yet, all of those people somehow managed to MISS, and a large part of why they missed was because it leaked to the fanbase that WWE WANTED THEM to be the Next Guy, and the fans took that as a challenge to their own wishes...and as a result, all of them struggled to get the crowd to care about them. End result is three ended up plateauing as midcarders until leaving the company, and Sheamus is still employed, but just as a midcarder.

It's worse with Reigns since the closest time the fans got to making their hero chosen had coincided with Reigns being marked as the next one- so it's worse there. The fans will NEVER give WWE Roman Reigns because it was made a plot point "if you accept Roman Reigns, you're inherently stabbing your personal favorite in the back and they'll NEVER get the big push."

So no. No, a heel turn won't work...the fans will just go dead silent for Roman Reigns and give him the reactions of those four. And nothing will work except maybe releasing Reigns, letting him run roughshod on the indy scene and Japan for a year or so, come back to WWE- possibly immediately going from NXT, and working his way up the ladder (similar to how Drew Galloway's revitalized his image and been saved as a potential star.)

Vince is still running off the formula his dad created over 50 years ago with Bruno, pick a top babyface and stick with them to be the face of your company. But now the audience can see through it and to lesser extents have seen through it since Luger, causing the audience to gravitate more towards underdogs, whether real or perceived.

But it is interesting you bring up Sheamus, Alberto Del Rio, Drew McIntyre, and I guess Jack Swagger. They were all hot shotted, and pushed as the next "guy". The audience crapped all over it and eventually they were forced to abandon the plan.

While it is pretty obvious, Vince is not ever going to completely abandon his plan with Reigns, the hope of the audience is to at the very least stop him from becoming Cena. Because once he reaches that untouchable level, he will be the face of the company for a long time and it will be too late. So I suppose at this point, people still think there is hope that they can prevent Reigns from becoming the next Cena.

Also you can turn Reigns heel. You just have to make it less obvious. Keep pushing him, keep making people think the front office wants this guy to succeed, but occasionally put a hero at the end to try and stop him from getting there. In a way, this is kind what they have doing with Reigns for a while. Infact, are we misreading Vince? Could it be, that he is actually completely playing us and Reigns being the heel is exactly what he wants?

[Hit Girl]

Vince used to make adjustments to characters that didn't work. Now he doesn't.

[King Devitt and the Woke Mob]

To further my "nothing is ever Vince's fault" post.

Remember the ECW December to Dismember horribad PPV?

Heyman had written an awesome show that showcased Punk and had RVD win it.

Vince hated it, rewrote the entire thing so Punk and RVD were eliminated early, but also Lashley won.

The entire day Heyman keeps trying to tell Vince it's going to bomb, and the fans will shit all over it.

Vince stands his ground, PPV goes off as his lack of vision wanted.

PPV Bombs in a legendary manner.

The next day Heyman is sent home, essentially fired, and no longer writing creative on ECW.
Vince blamed Paul Heyman for the shit that Vince wrote that bombed that was somehow not his fault.

One of the many, many reasons I loathe the man. He's horrible.
And as long as he keeps proving me right I will keep on opposing him.

So no, Roman isn't his fault. Why would it be, pal?

It's clearly our fault as fans for not accepting him.

[Milkman Norm]

When Rollins turned on The Shield why didn't Reigns be the guy he had a program with? Out of the gate as a solo they made Ambrose the sympathetic babyface. Meanwhile Reigns was the second babyface in the TLC match where Cena won the title. It's been downhill ever since.

[Nikki Heyman]

Mar 10, 2017 19:59:56 GMT -5 King Devitt and the Woke Mob said:

To further my "nothing is ever Vince's fault" post.

Remember the ECW December to Dismember horribad PPV?

Heyman had written an awesome show that showcased Punk and had RVD win it.

Vince hated it, rewrote the entire thing so Punk and RVD were eliminated early, but also Lashley won.

The entire day Heyman keeps trying to tell Vince it's going to bomb, and the fans will shit all over it.

Vince stands his ground, PPV goes off as his lack of vision wanted.

PPV Bombs in a legendary manner.

The next day Heyman is sent home, essentially fired, and no longer writing creative on ECW.
Vince blamed Paul Heyman for the shit that Vince wrote that bombed that was somehow not his fault. 

I heard that "Uncle Paul" was essentially fired by telling Vince he "Followed Orders" and THAT's why D2D bombed.

[Bub (BLM)]

Mar 10, 2017 20:10:30 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

When Rollins turned on The Shield why didn't Reigns be the guy he had a program with?

Because of that savage promo Ambrose cut the following week. No one wanted to see Reigns vs. Rollins after that.

[Hobby Drifter]

No. Vince most certainly doesn't get
















it!

[4real]

Mar 10, 2017 21:25:42 GMT -5 Bub (BLM) said:

Mar 10, 2017 20:10:30 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

When Rollins turned on The Shield why didn't Reigns be the guy he had a program with?

Because of that savage promo Ambrose cut the following week. No one wanted to see Reigns vs. Rollins after that.

It was pretty obvious the way the turn went that they were setting up Rollins v Ambrose and Reigns v Orton. Orton didn't touch Ambrose during the beat down at all I don't think. Seth hit Reigns with the initial chair shot and that was it.

I get Reigns would have been mad at Orton but surely Seth was the priority?

As for Reigns well...The Rock. Happy smiley baby face wasn't working, turned him heel, true personality comes out, fans loved it, turns face, becomes megastar, leaves for Hollywo...

Ok maybe that's why Vince is ruining Reigns, he doesn't want him to get THAT popular.