|
Post by MGH on Mar 28, 2017 16:26:39 GMT -5
If that is his logic I'd love an explanation then on why they manipulate mics at certain shows to drown out the boos Reigns gets. I mean, if you all are cool with him being a "heel" now then why are you trying to hide it, exactly?
|
|
Lt. Palumbo
Hank Scorpio
On again off again watcher of a wrestling TV show
Posts: 6,067
|
Post by Lt. Palumbo on Mar 28, 2017 16:41:44 GMT -5
People say that turning a babyface who is getting boos into a heel will just mean that the fans will start cheering him, but has that ever really happened? I honestly can't think of an example in which fans decided to be ironic for the sake of being ironic. Kurt Angle wasn't fond of "the black people"
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,838
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 28, 2017 16:50:57 GMT -5
People say that turning a babyface who is getting boos into a heel will just mean that the fans will start cheering him, but has that ever really happened? I honestly can't think of an example in which fans decided to be ironic for the sake of being ironic. Kurt Angle wasn't fond of "the black people" And he wanted what he called "Bestiality Sex" with Sharmell.
|
|
saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
|
Post by saintpat on Mar 28, 2017 16:53:07 GMT -5
Pushing him as a face gets a heel reaction. If they made him a heel, a good portion of the Internet would cheer. How would you hear them cheer if they're on the internet? You have never read this forum? Do a search for Daniel Bryan and look back a few years and you'll 'hear' people chanting YES! YES! YES! all over this forum.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 17:11:19 GMT -5
The fact that people want Roman to "turn heel" so that he becomes more likable shows there is some truth to what Hunter is saying. The lines between kayfabe and reality have blurred and caused an evolution in the characters of WWE. Stone Cold, DX, and the NWO were some of the most popular "faces" in wrestling history, but objectively speaking, their actions were those of heels. Bret was booked as a heel during the US/Canada story, but he was justified from my perspective. The whole Roman situation is weird. He does get cheers, but he also get boos. Some people don't like the character, while others don't like that the real life person is the one portraying that character. The argument, "we're presenting him in a way that makes you hate him" isn't completely inaccurate as there are still people who complain about Roman (booing him), but they still pump money into the product. I guarantee you, the moment they start outright presenting Roman as a guy you're supposed to boo, people will comply because that's part of what the audience wanted anyway. Put him against actual faces people already like, he'll have no problem getting booed. But when he fights some lame that gets everything interesting sucked out of him in a misguided attempt to sell him to the largest number of fans, let's call him "Flynn Valor," that's when Roman will get cheered. It seems WWE has an aversion to having a top face be like an actual consistent character and not just some bland multi-colored billboard that displays their latest merchandise and a nonsense hodge-podge of McMahon-approved character traits, so once Roman becomes free of that yoke and actually has a consistent goal and character...he'll get cheered for being a guy people can at least understand.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 244,483
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 28, 2017 18:49:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 28, 2017 22:07:20 GMT -5
No. And HHH is smart enough to know better/the difference.
I get they don't care as long as the money's green, but just from a story standpoint, it's unsatisfying for the presentation to not match up with what people want to see.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 28, 2017 22:46:16 GMT -5
Further, the Darth Vader comparison and the like doesn't work either. "People love Darth Vader. Some love the bad guy." Yeah they do. They love him being the VILLAIN.
People don't want Roman or whoever as a heel to be more likable. That's the complete opposite of what they want. They want to boo a guy who's being dastardly and legitimate villain. They may love him because of that, but they still want him to be legitimately bad.
Walter White on Breaking Bad, once he let Jane die, started down the path to be a full on villain. And people loved him. But they loved him because they could hate him even as they understood him. But make no mistake, at no point during his fall from grace was he presented as heroic. His story was a tragedy of someone turning to evil, hence the title. And people loved seeing just how far he'd go, but he was still a villain. I don't expect wrestling to be that well written; they don't have anyone as talented as Vince Gilligan on their staff, and it needn't be that nuanced since it is at the end of the day a simple morality tale through pretend fighting.
But this idea that 'oh just cuz you boo him, then he's a heel to you.. they're working you smarks' is just incorrect and more than a little condescending and silly.
Lots of people may still be spending money.. can't argue there. Fine. If that's your argument, have it. You win. But people aren't as invested as they could be That's a different argument altogether that you can't really hand wave away with: "people are still watching!" Particularly since less people are.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 23:01:00 GMT -5
Further, the Darth Vader comparison and the like doesn't work either. "People love Darth Vader. Some love the bad guy." Yeah they do. They love him being the VILLAIN. People don't want Roman or whoever as a heel to be more likable. That's the complete opposite of what they want. They want to boo a guy who's being dastardly and legitimate villain. They may love him because of that, but they still want him to be legitimately bad. Walter White on Breaking Bad, once he let Jane die, started down the path to be a full on villain. And people loved him. But they loved him because they could hate him even as they understood him. But make no mistake, at no point during his fall from grace was he presented as heroic. His story was a tragedy of someone turning to evil, hence the title. And people loved seeing just how far he'd go, but he was still a villain. I don't expect wrestling to be that well written; they don't have anyone as talented as Vince Gilligan on their staff, and it needn't be that nuanced since it is at the end of the day a simple morality tale through pretend fighting. But this idea that 'oh just cuz you boo him, then he's a heel to you.. they're working you smarks' is just incorrect and more than a little condescending and silly. Lots of people may still be spending money.. can't argue there. Fine. If that's your argument, have it. You win. But people aren't as invested as they could be That's a different argument altogether that you can't really hand wave away with: "people are still watching!" Particularly since less people are. Yeah but if Breaking Bad were wrestling people would be cheering Walter White, and posting "who's the heel?" threads between him and Skyler. It might not be that important in modern wrestling who gets cheered and who gets booed, but I think it's somewhat important to keep fans reacting to things the way you want them to, and I think if you're WWE and you have Roman Reigns on your roster, and your objective is to get people to boo him, why revamp him if you already have that? I'm not opposed to a revamp, but I think this subtle heel thing where we can't even tell what he is, is more effective because people hate Roman Reigns for his golden boy status. As long as that stigma is there, even if it's a facade now and we can't read it properly, I think that's better than making it obvious because once fans get the sense that this is 100% the intention, I think the fury from the fans is gonna be less venomous as it is now. Which again, isn't that bad, but I think Roman's better as the wet blanket tough guy than a more entertaining villain. If Undertaker/Roman is the template for Roman as a heel, I'm all for it, he's still the same annoying nonchalant Roman Reigns we've had to put up with for 3 years, but he's paired off with other faces and he's handled with more awareness, while still giving that sliver of doubt that WWE isn't through trying to relentlessly push superface Reigns on us that gets everyone so worked up.
|
|
|
Post by Chestnutrice on Mar 28, 2017 23:13:27 GMT -5
tldr version "Pssh, Stupid Marks! We were only pretending to book him as a face."
"The internet would cheer him" is a dumb excuse, as well. It's not the fans fault that WWE doesn't know how to build compelling faces. When they do have one, like Bryan was, like Dean was until people stopped caring, they bungle the push or remove all the likable qualities about them.
|
|
|
Post by doinkmark on Mar 29, 2017 0:40:29 GMT -5
Even in the "shades of gray" Attitude Era, there were still clearly-defined faces and heels. Austin wasn't the same kind of top good guy Hogan or Backlund were, but the narrative presented him as the face in situations, and the majority of fans agreed with it. The "as long as we make money, this way is fine" mentality is going to bite WWE in the ass eventually, just as it did WCW when the NWO formula stopped working.
On other TV shows, if a character isn't working, the writers change or totally eliminate that character. WWE can't just fire Roman, so change is needed.
|
|
|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Mar 29, 2017 0:58:02 GMT -5
Just support Da Big Dawg and you'll be Gucci.
|
|
|
Post by doinkmark on Mar 29, 2017 1:42:31 GMT -5
Even in the "shades of gray" Attitude Era, there were still clearly-defined faces and heels. Austin wasn't the same kind of top good guy Hogan or Backlund were, but the narrative presented him as the face in situations, and the majority of fans agreed with it. The "as long as we make money, this way is fine" mentality is going to bite WWE in the ass eventually, just as it did WCW when the NWO formula stopped working. On other TV shows, if a character isn't working, the writers change or totally eliminate that character. WWE can't just fire Roman, so change is needed. Didn't Austin give a stunner to a lady because she didn't want to drink alcohol with him? Yes, that one time the majority of fans didn't buy him as the face (myself included), which he was still presented as. But for the majority of his run? He was the top good guy, and fans at that time had no problem with him being a dick to Vince. Stacy Keibler getting stunned and people not liking it was the exception, not the rule. Roman already got his "well that one thing was a bad idea" moment like five times now.
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Mar 29, 2017 2:25:16 GMT -5
Compare Reigns to AJ Styles, who's consistently cheered despite being a heel, the opposite of what's going on with Reigns. The difference is AJ is CLEARLY a heel, from his promos to his booking so his opposite reaction is acceptable. Everything about Reigns' presentation says he's the face. He's an unpopular face. I should be shocked that they think that works but they still think it worked for Cena.
I want to like Reigns being on my TV. The only way they can do that right now is by turning him heel. It's what fans want and probably even what Reigns wants. Long-term it's the best thing for WWE. Turn him heel now and it'll pay off with a face turn in the future. And may even make big face stars out of his rivals.
|
|
|
Post by doinkmark on Mar 29, 2017 3:00:31 GMT -5
Yes, that one time the majority of fans didn't buy him as the face (myself included), which he was still presented as. But for the majority of his run? He was the top good guy, and fans at that time had no problem with him being a dick to Vince. Stacy Keibler getting stunned and people not liking it was the exception, not the rule. Roman already got his "well that one thing was a bad idea" moment like five times now. He broke into Pillman's home to attack him. He assaulted his boss a number of times. He pretended to be a doctor so he could assault his boss boss with a piss pan while his boss was in the hospital. He kidnapped his boss; although, he did use a fake gun to do it. He destroyed his boss's car with a concrete mixer. He "blew up" DX's bus. These are just a few examples from the top of my head. Looking at this behavior objectively, it's not really stuff a "good" guy would do. Lol. My point is, WWE has always had faces and heels, even when claiming they didn't have ANY, which makes Hunter's statement even more ridiculous. Yes you can certainly call a lot of Austin's, Rock's, and even Hogan's behavior heelish when viewing it objectively or in hindsight, but that doesn't change the fact that at the time on the show the narrative was "cheer this guy" and most of the fans reacted that way, thus making that character a success. With Roman, the narrative is still "cheer this guy", except it's not working. So we get BS answers like "well he's really a heel anyway". If the majority isn't agreeing with your presentation the majority of the time, something's wrong. And if the majority doesn't like the top thing you're presenting that majority of the time? Well, I don't know how anyone can think that's okay as long as we make money, because you sure won't be making it for long if you stay that course.
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 29, 2017 4:47:17 GMT -5
Yes, that one time the majority of fans didn't buy him as the face (myself included), which he was still presented as. But for the majority of his run? He was the top good guy, and fans at that time had no problem with him being a dick to Vince. Stacy Keibler getting stunned and people not liking it was the exception, not the rule. Roman already got his "well that one thing was a bad idea" moment like five times now. He broke into Pillman's home to attack him. He assaulted his boss a number of times. He pretended to be a doctor so he could assault his boss boss with a piss pan while his boss was in the hospital. He kidnapped his boss; although, he did use a fake gun to do it. He destroyed his boss's car with a concrete mixer. He "blew up" DX's bus. These are just a few examples from the top of my head. Looking at this behavior objectively, it's not really stuff a "good" guy would do. Lol. I mean, if you want to make that connection, Roman Reigns once spiked Stephanie's drink just so he could enter a battle royale to become number one contender for the world title. Which, honestly, is worse than most of the things you've listed.
|
|
|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Mar 29, 2017 4:49:48 GMT -5
Does WWE really not get it? Turn Roman heel for a year or two. Let fans get behind his heel persona, then, when he turns face again, he can be everything you wanted for him. Nobody is saying he has to be a bad guy FOREVER. But look at how well-received so many face-turns have been. Do it with Roman. Rip the damn band-aid off. See, WWE is mystified that he isn't catching fire like The Rock did, and yet they've clearly forgotten the path to the top Rock actually took.
|
|
|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Mar 29, 2017 5:17:54 GMT -5
The fact that people want Roman to "turn heel" so that he becomes more likable shows there is some truth to what Hunter is saying. The lines between kayfabe and reality have blurred and caused an evolution in the characters of WWE. Stone Cold, DX, and the NWO were some of the most popular "faces" in wrestling history, but objectively speaking, their actions were those of heels. Bret was booked as a heel during the US/Canada story, but he was justified from my perspective. The whole Roman situation is weird. He does get cheers, but he also get boos. Some people don't like the character, while others don't like that the real life person is the one portraying that character. The argument, "we're presenting him in a way that makes you hate him" isn't completely inaccurate as there are still people who complain about Roman (booing him), but they still pump money into the product. I think the thing is, right now outside of Ambrose, faces in WWE are held to moral standards. People want to see Roman cut loose and be a total dick.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,642
|
Post by The Ichi on Mar 29, 2017 5:17:55 GMT -5
Yes, that one time the majority of fans didn't buy him as the face (myself included), which he was still presented as. But for the majority of his run? He was the top good guy, and fans at that time had no problem with him being a dick to Vince. Stacy Keibler getting stunned and people not liking it was the exception, not the rule. Roman already got his "well that one thing was a bad idea" moment like five times now. He broke into Pillman's home to attack him. He assaulted his boss a number of times. He pretended to be a doctor so he could assault his boss boss with a piss pan while his boss was in the hospital. He kidnapped his boss; although, he did use a fake gun to do it. He destroyed his boss's car with a concrete mixer. He "blew up" DX's bus. These are just a few examples from the top of my head. Looking at this behavior objectively, it's not really stuff a "good" guy would do. Lol. Yeah, that was Austin's thing though. It wouldn't work today and it wouldn't have worked with hardly anyone else, but it was the XXXXXXXtreme 90s and he played the character to perfection. You can't compare it to anything else. Different time, different character, different fanbase.
|
|
Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819
|
Post by Pushed to the Moon on Mar 29, 2017 5:57:48 GMT -5
Austin was booked against heels. He did all that shit to Vince because Vince was a heel and was f***ing with him because he wouldn't be the corporate champion. Stephanie and HHH have tried booking Roman into a corner like Vince did to Austin but he still gets booed. Roman's last feuds were with with Braun, Kevin Owens and Rusev. They aren't faces and he was still getting booed. You can't tell me that's intentional. When Roman beats the shit out of Sami Zayn or Kofi then you can call him a heel.
|
|