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Post by corndog on May 31, 2017 12:13:58 GMT -5
I don't really want to use the exact quote from Meltzer, because it's a mess. Basically a fan asks if ROH can run in bigger buildings and if this is the only time the WWE has been on a downturn and the indies and being go up. Alvarez agrees, Meltzer agrees also that indies are trending up with WWE trending down, but not on ROH running bigger buildings. They both said that usually when WWE business goes up so do the indies and vice versa, but that is not the case.
Now just so I am not misleading people, Meltzer does say WWE house show business is only down slightly from last year and not anywhere close to the ratings decline, also a lot of ROH's current success is situational due to the most recent tour being with NJPW and their biggest show being during Wrestlemania weekend with the incredibly hot Hardys.
I have seen many times people complain about the current WWE product and others say, watch the indies, watch NJPW, there are plenty of alternatives. Are we finally getting to a point where many of the more hardcore fans of wrestling are not just tuning wrestling out as a whole out, but actually watching the alternatives instead?
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on May 31, 2017 12:17:31 GMT -5
I really don't think if you put ROH on a similar TV outlet it'd do as well as a Raw.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
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Post by Perd on May 31, 2017 12:20:30 GMT -5
FDM
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 12:24:31 GMT -5
The thing is, "If you don't like what WWE's doing, just watch the indies!" really isn't a very good argument at all, because WWE has a lot of things other companies don't have and never can have. WWE has an all star roster more often than not and especially of late, they have way higher production values and way glitzier presentation than anyone else could possibly be capable of, they run the thing a lot more professionally than even most other major companies in terms of structure, and they're the ones with all the major importance to where even a nothing guy like Jinder winning an ice cold title on a C-level PPV still feels like a major business-changing story.
If indies have more what you're looking for then by all means, go for it, and I'll occasionally check some out and have plenty of fun with them, but WWE has a style all its own and it's best as a fan of its style when they're delivering, not when you're having to avoid it or having to make due with it being terrible.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 31, 2017 12:34:32 GMT -5
The thing is, "If you don't like what WWE's doing, just watch the indies!" really isn't a very good argument at all, because WWE has a lot of things other companies don't have and never can have. WWE has an all star roster more often than not and especially of late, they have way higher production values and way glitzier presentation than anyone else could possibly be capable of, they run the thing a lot more professionally than even most other major companies in terms of structure, and they're the ones with all the major importance to where even a nothing guy like Jinder winning an ice cold title on a C-level PPV still feels like a major business-changing story. If indies have more what you're looking for then by all means, go for it, and I'll occasionally check some out and have plenty of fun with them, but WWE has a style all its own and it's best as a fan of its style when they're delivering, not when you're having to avoid it or having to make due with it being terrible. I think that all depends on what you're looking for from a wrestling product. If the "glitzier" presentation is a major factor for you, then no, most other promotions can't match what WWE can offer on that front, but a lot of the rest comes down to what you look for in your wrestling. I've seen numerous people talk about certain booking styles they want to see WWE utilize, without realizing that there are promotions out there that can deliver just those very things, often with rosters that are not exactly far off from WWE in terms of the quality of available top talent. Given that a lot of those promotions are now available much more easily than they would've been ten years ago (e.g. ROH, NJPW, Lucha Underground, and yes even TNA all being on many basic cable packages), they're just simpler to jump into if WWE is leaving you cold for whatever reasons. Speaking for myself, it's worked well, as I really get into the big moments that NJPW and LU book and basically don't even think about WWE unless I'm reading about it; that way, none of the creative decisions WWE makes really bother me one way or the other. But it IS a different style, no denying that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 12:37:18 GMT -5
The thing is, "If you don't like what WWE's doing, just watch the indies!" really isn't a very good argument at all, because WWE has a lot of things other companies don't have and never can have. WWE has an all star roster more often than not and especially of late, they have way higher production values and way glitzier presentation than anyone else could possibly be capable of, they run the thing a lot more professionally than even most other major companies in terms of structure, and they're the ones with all the major importance to where even a nothing guy like Jinder winning an ice cold title on a C-level PPV still feels like a major business-changing story. If indies have more what you're looking for then by all means, go for it, and I'll occasionally check some out and have plenty of fun with them, but WWE has a style all its own and it's best as a fan of its style when they're delivering, not when you're having to avoid it or having to make due with it being terrible. I think that all depends on what you're looking for from a wrestling product. If the "glitzier" presentation is a major factor for you, then no, most other promotions can't match what WWE can offer on that front, but a lot of the rest comes down to what you look for in your wrestling. I've seen numerous people talk about certain booking styles they want to see WWE utilize, without realizing that there are promotions out there that can deliver just those very things, often with rosters that are not exactly far off from WWE in terms of the quality of available top talent. Given that a lot of those promotions are now available much more easily than they would've been ten years ago (e.g. ROH, NJPW, Lucha Underground, and yes even TNA all being on many basic cable packages), they're just simpler to jump into if WWE is leaving you cold for whatever reasons. Speaking for myself, it's worked well, as I really get into the big moments that NJPW and LU book and basically don't even think about WWE unless I'm reading about it; that way, none of the creative decisions WWE makes really bother me one way or the other. But it IS a different style, no denying that. Right. Not saying you can't possibly get what you're looking for out of other companies - when I turn on NJPW or ROH I'm sure as hell not looking to see the same stuff I do on Raw - but for a lot of people it's not really a valid option because WWE just has its own thing that nothing else can even try and replicate. Do think people should at least test the waters in other places and see what gels with them, just, "Hey, the indies exist!" isn't really a catch-all solution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 12:43:26 GMT -5
This can be IMO mostly attributed to so much wrestling being so accessble.
But also what WWE brings to the table is not unique at all IMO apart from glitxy production and a roster they pillaged that they have next to no idea what to do with.
Good to great matches are now the norm all over and WWE is not close to being the best at this.
story telling and characters WWE is pretty much bottom of the barrel and you can find better in almost every other company.
And IMO it ties back to having access to so much other wretling that if you want 1 or even both of the above in a company you can find it no problem and that accessability is what is really helping the indies thrive as they are.
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thirteen3
Dennis Stamp
posted with a broken freakin neck keyboard
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Post by thirteen3 on May 31, 2017 12:46:40 GMT -5
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Post by corndog on May 31, 2017 12:46:56 GMT -5
I really don't think if you put ROH on a similar TV outlet it'd do as well as a Raw. I certainly wasn't suggesting that ROH or any other indy, even NJPW, is going to be competitive with WWE anytime soon. But in the past when WWE business was on a downturn, it usually was reflected in the entire US industry. This is one of the few times, business in the US outside of the WWE is growing, where the WWE's US business is not. I'm basically saying, I think we are finally seeing many, but not all, of the people tuning WWE out are still watching wrestling and watching it elsewhere.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on May 31, 2017 12:50:18 GMT -5
The thing is, "If you don't like what WWE's doing, just watch the indies!" really isn't a very good argument at all, because WWE has a lot of things other companies don't have and never can have. WWE has an all star roster more often than not and especially of late, they have way higher production values and way glitzier presentation than anyone else could possibly be capable of, they run the thing a lot more professionally than even most other major companies in terms of structure, and they're the ones with all the major importance to where even a nothing guy like Jinder winning an ice cold title on a C-level PPV still feels like a major business-changing story. If indies have more what you're looking for then by all means, go for it, and I'll occasionally check some out and have plenty of fun with them, but WWE has a style all its own and it's best as a fan of its style when they're delivering, not when you're having to avoid it or having to make due with it being terrible. You're kind of right, but to me Lucia Underground makes WWE's production values look so cheap that I find it so hard to get into WWE's backstage segments.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on May 31, 2017 13:03:27 GMT -5
The thing is, "If you don't like what WWE's doing, just watch the indies!" really isn't a very good argument at all, because WWE has a lot of things other companies don't have and never can have. WWE has an all star roster more often than not and especially of late, they have way higher production values and way glitzier presentation than anyone else could possibly be capable of, they run the thing a lot more professionally than even most other major companies in terms of structure, and they're the ones with all the major importance to where even a nothing guy like Jinder winning an ice cold title on a C-level PPV still feels like a major business-changing story. If indies have more what you're looking for then by all means, go for it, and I'll occasionally check some out and have plenty of fun with them, but WWE has a style all its own and it's best as a fan of its style when they're delivering, not when you're having to avoid it or having to make due with it being terrible. You're kind of right, but to me Lucia Underground makes WWE's production values look so cheap that I find it so hard to get into WWE's backstage segments. That is also correct, but it ties to the same problem for why WWE exists: Most indies are up, but they're up because they're niche products dedicated to a certain subsection of wrestling fans, which takes away a lot of the benefits of these shows. Lucha Underground is the example- you can watch Lucha Underground if you want a lucha libre-influenced, glitzy television show...but you have to be a huge fan of wrestling to be interested in lucha libre in order to want a show like that.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on May 31, 2017 13:33:26 GMT -5
You're kind of right, but to me Lucia Underground makes WWE's production values look so cheap that I find it so hard to get into WWE's backstage segments. That is also correct, but it ties to the same problem for why WWE exists: Most indies are up, but they're up because they're niche products dedicated to a certain subsection of wrestling fans, which takes away a lot of the benefits of these shows. Lucha Underground is the example- you can watch Lucha Underground if you want a lucha libre-influenced, glitzy television show...but you have to be a huge fan of wrestling to be interested in lucha libre in order to want a show like that. I think LU has far more appeal than that due to the sci-fi/cop drama/fantasy elements. I've seen it featured on websites that never cover wrestling. The WWE need to focus more on storylines to get people invested as their product features at too much in-ring action.
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Post by sportatorium on May 31, 2017 13:34:08 GMT -5
WWE's marker on whether business is up or down is by network subscriptions, their TV deal and licensed merchandise sales. While house shows are an outlet for merch, they certainly aren't the only one. I don't think they worry about if someone else is running in a bigger building unless is starts cutting into one of the other three.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on May 31, 2017 13:34:52 GMT -5
I'm a big fan and Lucha Underground has never done much to hook me, I try to watch it and I just don't find it entertaining. I think I'd like NJPW more if I knew what everyone was saying.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,162
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2017 13:57:20 GMT -5
The thing is, "If you don't like what WWE's doing, just watch the indies!" really isn't a very good argument at all, because WWE has a lot of things other companies don't have and never can have. WWE has an all star roster more often than not and especially of late, they have way higher production values and way glitzier presentation than anyone else could possibly be capable of, they run the thing a lot more professionally than even most other major companies in terms of structure, and they're the ones with all the major importance to where even a nothing guy like Jinder winning an ice cold title on a C-level PPV still feels like a major business-changing story. If indies have more what you're looking for then by all means, go for it, and I'll occasionally check some out and have plenty of fun with them, but WWE has a style all its own and it's best as a fan of its style when they're delivering, not when you're having to avoid it or having to make due with it being terrible. I think that all depends on what you're looking for from a wrestling product. If the "glitzier" presentation is a major factor for you, then no, most other promotions can't match what WWE can offer on that front, but a lot of the rest comes down to what you look for in your wrestling. I've seen numerous people talk about certain booking styles they want to see WWE utilize, without realizing that there are promotions out there that can deliver just those very things, often with rosters that are not exactly far off from WWE in terms of the quality of available top talent. Given that a lot of those promotions are now available much more easily than they would've been ten years ago (e.g. ROH, NJPW, Lucha Underground, and yes even TNA all being on many basic cable packages), they're just simpler to jump into if WWE is leaving you cold for whatever reasons. Speaking for myself, it's worked well, as I really get into the big moments that NJPW and LU book and basically don't even think about WWE unless I'm reading about it; that way, none of the creative decisions WWE makes really bother me one way or the other. But it IS a different style, no denying that. Just being honest, I stick with WWE because it requires the least financial investment.
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ASYLUMHAUSEN
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on May 31, 2017 14:08:42 GMT -5
So, Big Papa Meltz is trying to say that WWE is taking a....
....dive.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,162
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2017 14:14:23 GMT -5
So, Big Papa Meltz is trying to say that WWE is taking a.... ....dive. It's a livin' thing. It's a terrible thing to lose.
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Post by James Fabiano on May 31, 2017 14:19:36 GMT -5
My alternative is to just watch what I watched when I was growing up. Nothing, WWE nor indies nor TNA, will ever be like it was before. And of course I've talked about my qualms with indies. Apparently people think I need a "new gimmick." (if only it was just a work...)
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Post by James Fabiano on May 31, 2017 14:20:51 GMT -5
So, Big Papa Meltz is trying to say that WWE is taking a.... ....dive. It's a livin' thing. It's a terrible thing to lose. Fire on High should have been used in wrestling more than it was, if at all.
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Post by Mayonnaise on May 31, 2017 14:48:23 GMT -5
I really don't think if you put ROH on a similar TV outlet it'd do as well as a Raw. Of course it wouldn't and I don't think anyone here is saying that. Raw has 20+ years and some of the biggest stars in wrestling. Same for SDL. There is zero reason though that if/when ROH gets that outlet (and as their parent company is buying WGN that could happen soon) couldn't make WWE take notice and try to stop the slide.
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