Wrestle Kingdom 12/New Years Dash

[Rave]

Dec 16, 2017 0:06:31 GMT -5 chrom said:

Final Battle spoilers but Ibushi vs Cody is now just a regular match. Unless they slide Dalton Castle in his place.

They need to do that. Castle and Ibushi would be awesome. Cody would just suck the energy out of everything.

[Deleted]

Okada threw shade at Naito. He stated that him vs Omega was the main event, him versus Tanahashi was the main event. But him vs Naito was a 'double main event' both times, so whose fault is that?

Just a nasty and great way to get under Naito's skin and add more heat to the match.

[Feargus McReddit]

Yeah, I can't see anything but a Naito win. Not even just because of the story but because of how the biggest draw in the company right now, attendance and merchandise wise is Naito and even with how big Okada is, I really can't see them hindering that right now and stopping the momentum especially on their biggest show of the year.

[Mozenrath]

I do hope Okada loses, both for Naito's sake and his own. If Okada wins, it will likely damage his popularity. Not like it'd make everyone turn on him, but it would harm him in the same way Original Sheik not knowing when to lose eventually killed the Detroit territory, once people stopped believing it'd ever happen after they'd bring in Andre, etc, and he'd just fireball his way out of it or get some count out BS.

Okada winning would just deflate every subsequent title match because the time to lose it would have passed.

Dec 16, 2017 4:11:17 GMT -5 Rave said:

Dec 16, 2017 0:06:31 GMT -5 chrom said:

Final Battle spoilers but Ibushi vs Cody is now just a regular match. Unless they slide Dalton Castle in his place.

They need to do that. Castle and Ibushi would be awesome. Cody would just suck the energy out of everything.

Does Castle have any relevance in NJPW, though? Like, Cody's a known entity and part of one of the major stables. Like, I'd be cool with Castle performing if it makes any sense beyond "wouldn't it be neat", since Jericho's already filling that quota.

[Feargus McReddit]

Dec 16, 2017 6:23:07 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

I do hope Okada loses, both for Naito's sake and his own. If Okada wins, it will likely damage his popularity. Not like it'd make everyone turn on him, but it would harm him in the same way Original Sheik not knowing when to lose eventually killed the Detroit territory, once people stopped believing it'd ever happen after they'd bring in Andre, etc, and he'd just fireball his way out of it or get some count out BS.

Okada winning would just deflate every subsequent title match because the time to lose it would have passed.

Dec 16, 2017 4:11:17 GMT -5 Rave said:

They need to do that. Castle and Ibushi would be awesome. Cody would just suck the energy out of everything.

Does Castle have any relevance in NJPW, though? Like, Cody's a known entity and part of one of the major stables. Like, I'd be cool with Castle performing if it makes any sense beyond "wouldn't it be neat", since Jericho's already filling that quota.

Probably not. At the same time, Lethal didn't really have any NJPW connections before his ROH title match last year and I believe before being in the Rev Pro title match, Zack Sabre Jr didn't have much of a NJ presence since he was still in NOAH a lot so there's a precedence to this.

For my view, I'd make it a triple threat match. Have Cody demand a rematch, Ibushi say "Na, you're facing me" and Castle goes "Well, I'll face the both of you". Solves all problems.

[Alice Syndrome]

I hope Naito wins. I thought the LOL Okada Wins that started this "greatest ever" reign was some Triple H and Randy Orton in 2004 levels of momentum killing bullshit, so he REALLY deserves his win back.

[HMARK Center]

Interesting discussion I've seen elsewhere: the scope and size of the main event for this show has really allowed Gedo to experiment a little bit with the rest of the card, and sacrifice match ups that might get higher star ratings in a vacuum or would have a bigger build up and instead focus on matches that might set the stage for more interesting things to come in 2018, especially as NJPW likely enters a minor transition period as we finish up 2017.

For example, I think a lot of people were thinking as of this summer that while Okada/Naito was pretty clearly on the horizon, we might have also been getting Omega/Ibushi for the US belt, maybe Tanahashi/Suzuki for the IC title, etc. Those matches might've had more story building them up and a potential for slightly higher overall match quality (again, in a vacuum), but Okada/Naito is such a draw that instead we can get Omega/Jericho in what'll likely be an old school brawl with some international implications, while Tanahashi will likely put on a show to help get over Jay White as one of the new top names of the promotion despite Jay coming out of nowhere upon his return and the match not having much build, while Suzuki and Goto get one more go-round that will likely set both men up for a refresh of their directions in 2018 after a year where both hit lulls, while SANADA and EVIL get a chance to relaunch the heavyweight tag division toward a new direction, etc.

I think this is significant, as 2018 has the potential to be a bit of a transition year for the promotion as it keeps growing and as some old standbys in the promotion get a bit older and some of the newer guys get a chance to step up. For example, is Jay White primed to join a pre-existing heel stable, or might he begin a new one of his own? How much further can a late-40s Minoru Suzuki go? Is Tanahashi going to be away for awhile to finally let his arm get better? Does Goto lose and get a gimmick shift if he loses his hair? Is Kenny solidified as a face against Jericho, or does he stay mostly heel in Japan? Does Bullet Club as a whole change, given the international money they bring in? Does LIJ or CHAOS go in a new direction, e.g. LIJ turning more face against maybe Bullet Club, or hell, maybe EVIL starting to turn on Naito, or Okada getting involved in a different storyline for most of the year before he tries for the title again?

Point is, there are a lot of interesting possibilities, and I honestly can't predict a lot of it. I mean, I do figure Naito is winning and that'll lead to LIJ vs. BC, but we might be in the middle of a minor shift in the promotion and it's hard to say where a lot of different wrestlers or stables might start heading coming out of 1/4.

[BRAINFADE]

Dec 16, 2017 7:19:03 GMT -5 Alice Syndrome said:

I hope Naito wins. I thought the LOL Okada Wins that started this "greatest ever" reign was some Triple H and Randy Orton in 2004 levels of momentum killing bullshit, so he REALLY deserves his win back.

I'm going to say it again- how was it momentum killing bullshit? Naito is more over than ever going in to this match! Last year was just a taste of a Naito run. They've let him simmer for a year, and now he is coming to the boil at the absolute perfect time; in time to face this record-breaking, unstoppable champion who has beaten everybody in, yes, an all time great reign (which it is on attendance figures alone) in arguably the biggest main event in the Kidani era of New Japan.

None of this would be happening if Okada hadn't won the title back last year. You could not have booked this any more perfectly, yet there are STILL people arguing that it was the wrong decision. It is simply baffling to me.

[corndog]

Dec 16, 2017 6:05:24 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Yeah, I can't see anything but a Naito win. Not even just because of the story but because of how the biggest draw in the company right now, attendance and merchandise wise is Naito and even with how big Okada is, I really can't see them hindering that right now and stopping the momentum especially on their biggest show of the year.

Considering with just Naito/Okada announced this show sold 20,000 tickets, while at the same point last year it sold 12,000. It was already on pace to sell 40,000 with just that match. It's pretty obvious, the fans want to see Naito win the championship.

[Convoy]

If Suzuki-gun is on their way out, I'd love to see White lead a new heel stable. It feels like some time since we have a betrayal or alignment change. Plus, White will need to team with someone full-time on most shows going forward.

New Beginning could see a jump from CHAOS (Goto?) to this new stable, and (false hope here) a definitive split in BC. I doubt New Japan would like to give up that money though.

[chrom]

For the big surprise at NYD why not have Goto usurp control and kick Okada out of Chaos

[HMARK Center]

Concerning Naito's short reign last year, I do think it was done to guarantee that Naito was officially a "made man" for the promotion going forward; Gedo likes to keep things in his back pocket and wait for the right time to use them, and I think the idea here was to assure the audience that, yes, Naito was going to be a top star going forward, but given the way their matches in 2016 were booked he's keeping the possibility of Naito beating Okada clean as the payoff in his back pocket. I did find myself wishing they had held off on Naito winning for awhile, both to build to his moment and to make Okada's reign that much more epic, but Naito's run tossing the IWGP belt around is a big factor in what took his heat and crowd reactions to another level.

Dec 16, 2017 11:37:10 GMT -5 Convoy said:

If Suzuki-gun is on their way out, I'd love to see White lead a new heel stable. It feels like some time since we have a betrayal or alignment change. Plus, White will need to team with someone full-time on most shows going forward.

New Beginning could see a jump from CHAOS (Goto?) to this new stable, and (false hope here) a definitive split in BC. I doubt New Japan would like to give up that money though.

White already being an IC challenger shows they have big plans for him, so a new stable led by him feels like a distinct possibility.

With Goto, I've honestly been interested in seeing CHAOS split in some way leading to a heel faction with him and Ishii at the head of it as a means of refreshing them both (I love both, but Goto spent most of 2017 spinning his wheels and Ishii just isn't quite as over in Japan as he should be due to his lack of promo skills), though I'm not holding my breath on it.

And on Bullet Club, I'm torn on it; I like the idea of a heel stable where there's a lot of dissension, because why wouldn't a bunch of jerks constantly be egging one another on and threatening mutiny to gain more money and power? But it's also clear that there's sort of a Bullet Club Japan and Bullet Club USA thing going on, too. I don't see them splitting Omega away from the Bullet Club brand any time soon given how much he's now associated with it internationally, but I would like to see some kind of change...I just don't want them to do it until they're really sure they have things set up in a way that'll be beneficial to everyone.

[corndog]

Dec 16, 2017 11:10:18 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Interesting discussion I've seen elsewhere: the scope and size of the main event for this show has really allowed Gedo to experiment a little bit with the rest of the card, and sacrifice match ups that might get higher star ratings in a vacuum or would have a bigger build up and instead focus on matches that might set the stage for more interesting things to come in 2018, especially as NJPW likely enters a minor transition period as we finish up 2017.

For example, I think a lot of people were thinking as of this summer that while Okada/Naito was pretty clearly on the horizon, we might have also been getting Omega/Ibushi for the US belt, maybe Tanahashi/Suzuki for the IC title, etc. Those matches might've had more story building them up and a potential for slightly higher overall match quality (again, in a vacuum), but Okada/Naito is such a draw that instead we can get Omega/Jericho in what'll likely be an old school brawl with some international implications, while Tanahashi will likely put on a show to help get over Jay White as one of the new top names of the promotion despite Jay coming out of nowhere upon his return and the match not having much build, while Suzuki and Goto get one more go-round that will likely set both men up for a refresh of their directions in 2018 after a year where both hit lulls, while SANADA and EVIL get a chance to relaunch the heavyweight tag division toward a new direction, etc.

I think this is significant, as 2018 has the potential to be a bit of a transition year for the promotion as it keeps growing and as some old standbys in the promotion get a bit older and some of the newer guys get a chance to step up. For example, is Jay White primed to join a pre-existing heel stable, or might he begin a new one of his own? How much further can a late-40s Minoru Suzuki go? Is Tanahashi going to be away for awhile to finally let his arm get better? Does Goto lose and get a gimmick shift if he loses his hair? Is Kenny solidified as a face against Jericho, or does he stay mostly heel in Japan? Does Bullet Club as a whole change, given the international money they bring in? Does LIJ or CHAOS go in a new direction, e.g. LIJ turning more face against maybe Bullet Club, or hell, maybe EVIL starting to turn on Naito, or Okada getting involved in a different storyline for most of the year before he tries for the title again?

Point is, there are a lot of interesting possibilities, and I honestly can't predict a lot of it. I mean, I do figure Naito is winning and that'll lead to LIJ vs. BC, but we might be in the middle of a minor shift in the promotion and it's hard to say where a lot of different wrestlers or stables might start heading coming out of 1/4.

The big thing I think the main event changed was New Japan not needing to lean on Tanahashi, as obviously Tanahashi/White is not a big money match. Considering how messed up his knee is, he pretty much has to drop the belt and take a break. Having White as champion would be very interesting, considering the belt is still a true main event title.

I certainly agree going forward, things will be interesting. You touched on the LIJ/CHAOS direction and it's clear where the fans lie, but I can't see CHAOS turning more heel simply because there are already two major heel factions. Although you never know, especially if there is a Bullet Club split. But I think LIJ's booking will be very interesting going forward, considering their popularity. As others have touched on, I see an LIJ/Suzuki-gun feud leading into the New Beginning shows. There is also potentially Bullet Club/LIJ, but that has already been happening randomly across the shows.

Omega is an interesting one going forward as well. I really feel like Ibushi/Cody will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for the Omega/Cody feud. Not sure how it goes down, but I think it's happening. A Bullet Club split would be an interesting storyline, but I can't see it ending because it's such a financial success.

[chrom]

Dec 16, 2017 12:22:32 GMT -5 corndog said:

Dec 16, 2017 11:10:18 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Interesting discussion I've seen elsewhere: the scope and size of the main event for this show has really allowed Gedo to experiment a little bit with the rest of the card, and sacrifice match ups that might get higher star ratings in a vacuum or would have a bigger build up and instead focus on matches that might set the stage for more interesting things to come in 2018, especially as NJPW likely enters a minor transition period as we finish up 2017.

For example, I think a lot of people were thinking as of this summer that while Okada/Naito was pretty clearly on the horizon, we might have also been getting Omega/Ibushi for the US belt, maybe Tanahashi/Suzuki for the IC title, etc. Those matches might've had more story building them up and a potential for slightly higher overall match quality (again, in a vacuum), but Okada/Naito is such a draw that instead we can get Omega/Jericho in what'll likely be an old school brawl with some international implications, while Tanahashi will likely put on a show to help get over Jay White as one of the new top names of the promotion despite Jay coming out of nowhere upon his return and the match not having much build, while Suzuki and Goto get one more go-round that will likely set both men up for a refresh of their directions in 2018 after a year where both hit lulls, while SANADA and EVIL get a chance to relaunch the heavyweight tag division toward a new direction, etc.

I think this is significant, as 2018 has the potential to be a bit of a transition year for the promotion as it keeps growing and as some old standbys in the promotion get a bit older and some of the newer guys get a chance to step up. For example, is Jay White primed to join a pre-existing heel stable, or might he begin a new one of his own? How much further can a late-40s Minoru Suzuki go? Is Tanahashi going to be away for awhile to finally let his arm get better? Does Goto lose and get a gimmick shift if he loses his hair? Is Kenny solidified as a face against Jericho, or does he stay mostly heel in Japan? Does Bullet Club as a whole change, given the international money they bring in? Does LIJ or CHAOS go in a new direction, e.g. LIJ turning more face against maybe Bullet Club, or hell, maybe EVIL starting to turn on Naito, or Okada getting involved in a different storyline for most of the year before he tries for the title again?

Point is, there are a lot of interesting possibilities, and I honestly can't predict a lot of it. I mean, I do figure Naito is winning and that'll lead to LIJ vs. BC, but we might be in the middle of a minor shift in the promotion and it's hard to say where a lot of different wrestlers or stables might start heading coming out of 1/4.

The big thing I think the main event changed was New Japan not needing to lean on Tanahashi, as obviously Tanahashi/White is not a big money match. Considering how messed up his knee is, he pretty much has to drop the belt and take a break. Having White as champion would be very interesting, considering the belt is still a true main event title.

I certainly agree going forward, things will be interesting. You touched on the LIJ/CHAOS direction and it's clear where the fans lie, but I can't see CHAOS turning more heel simply because there are already two major heel factions. Although you never know, especially if there is a Bullet Club split. But I think LIJ's booking will be very interesting going forward, considering their popularity. As others have touched on, I see an LIJ/Suzuki-gun feud leading into the New Beginning shows. There is also potentially Bullet Club/LIJ, but that has already been happening randomly across the shows.

Omega is an interesting one going forward as well. I really feel like Ibushi/Cody will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for the Omega/Cody feud. Not sure how it goes down, but I think it's happening. A Bullet Club split would be an interesting storyline, but I can't see it ending because it's such a financial success.

Cody lost the ROH Title last night, if he loses to Ibushi Omega may indeed kick him out.

But BC makes too much money to split right now.

[corndog]

Dec 16, 2017 12:08:01 GMT -5 chrom said:

For the big surprise at NYD why not have Goto usurp control and kick Okada out of Chaos

A CHAOS split would be interesting and to reply to your last post, Bullet Club is in ridiculously good shape financially so a split would probably be out of the cards. Although I think you could still do a Cody/Omega power struggle type match.

If we are going to "fantasy book", I would go the opposite direction with Goto. Okada sees Goto as a failure and turns on him at New Year's Dash, which splits the group. I would have Okada's side be the heel one, with Okada completely losing it and not knowing how to handle failure, so he lashes out on CHAOS. Then you can have a Goto/Okada feud, with both chasing Naito, but holding each other back on the way.

[HMARK Center]

Dec 16, 2017 12:37:59 GMT -5 corndog said:

Dec 16, 2017 12:08:01 GMT -5 chrom said:

For the big surprise at NYD why not have Goto usurp control and kick Okada out of Chaos

A CHAOS split would be interesting and to reply to your last post, Bullet Club is in ridiculously good shape financially so a split would probably be out of the cards. Although I think you could still do a Cody/Omega power struggle type match.

If we are going to "fantasy book", I would go the opposite direction with Goto. Okada sees Goto as a failure and turns on him at New Year's Dash, which splits the group. I would have Okada's side be the heel one, with Okada completely losing it and not knowing how to handle failure, so he lashes out on CHAOS. Then you can have a Goto/Okada feud, with both chasing Naito, but holding each other back on the way.

Interesting idea, though I'm not sure I could see them going that far with Okada turning. He's the vintage ace now: like KUSHIDA for the juniors he'll play more face or more heel depending on the opponent, on the crowd response for a given match (e.g. I think his Cobra hold will be a way for him to play the match at WK as more of a heel), on the story being told, etc., and I can't see them having him deviate too far from that. For Goto, it really boils down to a couple of options: you either give him a charge back up the card as a babyface trying to finally fulfill his redemption arc (maybe play it up if we see more of Shibata hanging around in the coming months), or you let his frustrations or what have you boil over to turn him.

That said, this being NJPW I could see CHAOS staying almost exactly the same after WK, too; they're not big on doing large-scale changes unless they've got something solid in mind for it, so I don't want to jump the gun.

[chrom]

Tomorrow and Monday's show should be good, with the last buildup to WK12 as well as The Young Lion Cup being on it.

[Rave]

Dec 16, 2017 6:23:07 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Dec 16, 2017 4:11:17 GMT -5 Rave said:

They need to do that. Castle and Ibushi would be awesome. Cody would just suck the energy out of everything.

Does Castle have any relevance in NJPW, though? Like, Cody's a known entity and part of one of the major stables. Like, I'd be cool with Castle performing if it makes any sense beyond "wouldn't it be neat", since Jericho's already filling that quota.

It's an already-scheduled title match, it would make sense to keep it a title match by replacing Cody with Castle. ROH would still have that presence on the card that way.

Plus yeah, it'd be cool, and I dislike Cody.

[Alice Syndrome]

Dec 16, 2017 11:37:10 GMT -5 Convoy said:

If Suzuki-gun is on their way out, I'd love to see White lead a new heel stable. It feels like some time since we have a betrayal or alignment change. Plus, White will need to team with someone full-time on most shows going forward.

New Beginning could see a jump from CHAOS (Goto?) to this new stable, and (false hope here) a definitive split in BC. I doubt New Japan would like to give up that money though.

I'm half expecting Sabre to usurp power at some point.

[chrom]

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