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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Dec 27, 2017 17:27:34 GMT -5
RVD may have been the most over Heel on terms of getting a face pop in 01. Should he have been the one to take down the alliance and beat Austin for the WWF Title? I know he got the triple threat match with Austin and Angle at No Mercy, but it seems like this was a messed opportunity as a whole.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 27, 2017 17:51:57 GMT -5
At the time it seemed obvious that Austin would pin Angle in that 3 way to set up a more interesting Austin/RVD match. Angle by Oct. 2001 was tanking fast as a face, hence his immediate heel turn post Invasion. It's always been interesting to me that Angle cratered as a face at a time of intense patriotism in this country. It's almost like fans felt uncomfortable rooting for a guy that was such a pro American character, but Angle had always been a smarmy, insincere version that gimmick.
As far as RVD goes, I don't know where you go with him. Let's say he does bring down The Alliance at Survivor Series 2001. Then what? He's the WWF champion. Does he get a brief 1 month run before they do the unification deal where Jericho wins? Jericho beating Rock and Van Dam in the same night doesn't quite have the same ring to it as beating Rock and Austin in the same night. RVD was destined to be the victim of politics with HHH coming back in Jan. 2002 anyway, so I don't know where he goes.
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Post by thegame415 on Dec 28, 2017 1:02:19 GMT -5
No. Rock was the guy to do it.
Also, I don’t think Angle was tanking fast as a face. I think his heel turn was a desperate move because the previous RAW had its lowest rating in over three years.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 28, 2017 1:06:50 GMT -5
I think the angle was just at a place where WWE was eager to be done with it, as much as fans were. RVD being the guy to end it wouldn't ultimately be that big of a rub because WWE was done wanting to talk about it beyond ramifications like Test's immunity, Flair being the shareholder, and writing out Steph and Shane for the time being.
RVD benefited from a slower burn, anyway, even if I think they'd have probably pulled the trigger on him earlier if he laid off the weed, or at least being super obvious about it.
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AlexaBliss4Life
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Post by AlexaBliss4Life on Dec 28, 2017 1:11:10 GMT -5
It would've worked better had Vince had -GASP- foresight to bring in Goldberg, the nWo and all the big WCW guns before the angle even began. God, just thinking about it makes me very sad.
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Post by JTG Fan on Dec 28, 2017 1:14:57 GMT -5
I firmly believe not having RVD win the WWF Title in 2001 played a large role in the company's subsequent decline in business. They had already taken a hit, but one thing was clear: the fans were NUTS about RVD. He was getting bigger pops and the crowd was more into his matches than top WWF baby faces like The Rock and Kurt Angle. It was basically a no-brainer in every facet except for the front office finding him too off-putting.
If he had won the title at No Mercy 2001 and they sped up the pace on the Alliance breakup, I think they could have at least wrung out the last remnants of the Attitude Era longer in the worst case scenario and kept things going smoothly into the new period.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Dec 28, 2017 12:04:49 GMT -5
It would've worked better had Vince had -GASP- foresight to bring in Goldberg, the nWo and all the big WCW guns before the angle even began. God, just thinking about it makes me very sad. They tried to bring them in. They wanted more money then they would make on their still ongoing turner contracts. WWE wasn’t able to pony up 5 million per wrestler. |
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 28, 2017 12:11:09 GMT -5
Instead of Kurt coming back and interfering, RVD should have come out at the end of the Survivor Series match and hit Austin with the Five Star with the ref out cold/distracted
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 12:14:07 GMT -5
Storyline wise and on his overness at that period you can make a case for it, but he wasn't reliable enough to stay in the main event (see his entire history really) especially at a time when you had Austin, Rock, Hunter, Angle, Taker, so it wouldn't have done much for the company in the end. It would be a bit of a footnote like Jericho winning the first undisputed title.
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AlexaBliss4Life
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Post by AlexaBliss4Life on Dec 28, 2017 13:05:05 GMT -5
It would've worked better had Vince had -GASP- foresight to bring in Goldberg, the nWo and all the big WCW guns before the angle even began. God, just thinking about it makes me very sad. They tried to bring them in. They wanted more money then they would make on their still ongoing turner contracts. WWE wasn’t able to pony up 5 million per wrestler. They did? I was under the impression they never bothered to try. |
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TGM
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Post by TGM on Dec 28, 2017 13:16:18 GMT -5
I don't think Angle was tanking as a face at all. It's a shame he joined the Alliance and then remained heel after they disbanded. I believe he'd done all he could as a heel by that point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 13:18:41 GMT -5
I don't think Angle was tanking as a face at all. It's a shame he joined the Alliance and then remained heel after they disbanded. I believe he'd done all he could as a heel by that point. Angle as the straight babyface opposite Austin, willing Austin to come back to them all along would be great. Hell, I'd have booked him as being the one who got Rock to return if you're going to make him the hero, make him the difference between Vince and Shane. Show a stronger bond between them than anything the Alliance could put up. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 28, 2017 14:58:45 GMT -5
It would've worked better had Vince had -GASP- foresight to bring in Goldberg, the nWo and all the big WCW guns before the angle even began. God, just thinking about it makes me very sad. They tried to bring them in. They wanted more money then they would make on their still ongoing turner contracts. WWE wasn’t able to pony up 5 million per wrestler. Point still stands though. The invasion could have been delayed till 2002/2003 when those contracts had run out. Goldberg, Hogan, Hall and Nash vs Rock, Austin, Angle and Undertaker would have been a better idea. |
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Post by Woo on Dec 28, 2017 15:01:00 GMT -5
At the time it seemed obvious that Austin would pin Angle in that 3 way to set up a more interesting Austin/RVD match. Angle by Oct. 2001 was tanking fast as a face, hence his immediate heel turn post Invasion. It's always been interesting to me that Angle cratered as a face at a time of intense patriotism in this country. It's almost like fans felt uncomfortable rooting for a guy that was such a pro American character, but Angle had always been a smarmy, insincere version that gimmick. As far as RVD goes, I don't know where you go with him. Let's say he does bring down The Alliance at Survivor Series 2001. Then what? He's the WWF champion. Does he get a brief 1 month run before they do the unification deal where Jericho wins? Jericho beating Rock and Van Dam in the same night doesn't quite have the same ring to it as beating Rock and Austin in the same night. RVD was destined to be the victim of politics with HHH coming back in Jan. 2002 anyway, so I don't know where he goes. Angle was tanking fast as a face? Where an Earth has this come from? The guy was molten hot. |
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Dec 28, 2017 16:24:53 GMT -5
They tried to bring them in. They wanted more money then they would make on their still ongoing turner contracts. WWE wasn’t able to pony up 5 million per wrestler. They did? I was under the impression they never bothered to try. Yeah they had serious conversations with a bunch of guys and they decided they’d rather ride out their contracts at home over taking less money. That’s fairly well known. They tried to bring them in. They wanted more money then they would make on their still ongoing turner contracts. WWE wasn’t able to pony up 5 million per wrestler. Point still stands though. The invasion could have been delayed till 2002/2003 when those contracts had run out. Goldberg, Hogan, Hall and Nash vs Rock, Austin, Angle and Undertaker would have been a better idea. Oh sure yeah they probably should’ve delayed it but they were in a pinch. Austin was flopping, Triple H and Rock weren’t around. They needed something to get them through the year. |
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 28, 2017 16:33:27 GMT -5
Nah. They at least covered it in a backstage segment. Vince approached RVD about jumping sides, and RVD said he was cool where he was but appreciated the offer. Vince basically told him the offer is always open and left it at that.
By that point RVD had stopped participating in Alliance beatdowns of WWF talent and was basically just accepted as his own entity. The WWF commentators always put him over, too. I think they knew that the Invasion was going to be short lived and they wanted him as a babyface.
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Dec 28, 2017 16:40:47 GMT -5
They did? I was under the impression they never bothered to try. Yeah they had serious conversations with a bunch of guys and they decided they’d rather ride out their contracts at home over taking less money. That’s fairly well known. Plus the fact that the locker room would have been PISSED if those guys got paid more than they were, since those guys, you know, lost. |
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 28, 2017 18:59:33 GMT -5
Go back and watch some shows. Angle was tanking as a face post 9/11. He was in fact red hot in the Summer of 2001, sort of organically going face after Austin totally turned heel and joined the Alliance. First, I think not winning the title at Summerslam kind of hurt his heat a bit. After that though it just seemed post 9/11 that Angle lost....something. The hometown crowd for his title win over Austin was lukewarm at best and one of his only title defenses on TV was against Shane of all people (and that match was certainly not on the level of the KOTR match). Angle was tanking as a face champ so they immediately put the title back on Austin about 2 weeks later. During this time period RVD was quickly becoming the most over guy on the roster and did it in about 2 months time. I recall going to a Raw right before Survivor Series and a guy in line asked who won the main event of SD the previous week between The Rock and RVD. I told him RVD won and he was like "Oh, cool" and didn't bat an eye. It was completely believable that Van Dam could beat The Rock or Austin.
The specter of HHH hangs over much of that late 2001 time period. Jericho's entire title run and the politics he played to get it were basically just to feed him to a returning HHH in a way that utterly buried him. There was no point in putting the title on RVD if he was either going to be a 1 month transition champ or going to be fed to HHH.
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