Why is HBK considered the best ever by a lot of fans?

[Woo]

He's not. At least not to me.

Objectively Randy Savage is the greatest ever. Bret Hart said he was the greatest being a ten in promos, ten in ring work and ten with the superstar look. Also his inring psychology is amongst the best ever. Look at the use of the ring bell throughout this career. I wrote a big post on this forum detailing how this run in the WWE is the best and most narrtively satisfying of any run ever. I also think he gets points for scripting his matches. I know he gets flack for it, but I think it's way his matches are far less repetitive and better stories than those of a Flair or a Michaels.

If Savage isn't the best then it could be Bret Hart. His moveset wasn't as flashy as HBK but he was the best at making everything he did look real. With Bret you believe he is in a real fight. He's even better at in ring psychology than Savage is. As for his promos, I personally see nothing wrong with them. Again they come across as a real man going into a real fight. I buy him completely. His feud with Owen in 1994 and his whole run in 1997 is some of the best mic work in WWE history. In fact his whole run in 1997 is possibly the single greatest year anybody has had in the E. It's been said so many times that HBK is better than Bret on the mic it is taken as fact, but I personally think Shawn was awful. Yes he got better on his comeback and had a few great heel promos with his trolling Montreal and mocking Hogan but his first run was terrible. Shawn was always coked or drunk off his face abs constantly slurred and stammered his way through promos. Bret sometimes she it too, but Shawn might be even worse.

Austin is another who is better than HBK to me. Better promo for sure. He brought real intensity into every role and his psychology was also outstanding. I loved how he lost to Bret at SSeries by not releasing the Million Dollar Dream and he played off that at Mania X7 4 and a half years later. Also Austin proved on 2001 that not only can he play a heel as well as a face but his comedic timing is excellent.

Speaking of comedy how about Kurt Angle? Kurt could do it all. In my opinion he is perhaps the greatest all rounder of all time. He could make you laugh one minute with Sexy Kurt and then go batshit crazy and try to break someones ankle. He was also the single best wrestler of putting someone over by beating them and making them look like stars. Angle made Benoit, Rey, Edge, Cena and even made Essa Rios on Heat look like he might beat the world champion briefly too. Such an unselfish performer. In ring I don't think many people can touch him. Some have called his matches finisher fests, but that's really not fair, not in the WWE certainly and nowhere near the obscene level of HBK's matches with Undertaker.

HBK gets a lot of credit for effectively having two stages for his career that were both great. But Chris Jericho has had at least 3 and that's in the WWE alone. From the cocky Y2J to the suit wearing evil Jericho to the guy with the list, scarf and IT Chris has constantly reinvented himself. Yes not all of it has worked wonders, he was bogged down by Bray Wyatt for a bit, but then Shawn was in DX... and that was almost always crao. Jericho is far better than HBK on the mic and wasn't much worse in the ring either.

Those 5 for me would be better than HBK overall. Benoit and AJ are and were better in the ring, but lacked the promo skills, Roberts was the greatest on the mic, but doesn't have a catalogue of matches that comes close to Shawn,but maybe Foley and Eddie could be ranked above him too?


Don't get me wrong Shawn was great, but compared to Bret, Austin, Savage and Angle be can't be the best ever. Shawn is credited with having 5 star matches with a broom, but really is that the case? Bret had crackers in 1996 with evil pirates and clowns, Angle and AJ can carry anybody to classics but Shawn had a woeful match with Mr Perfect for goodness sake! Bret meanwhile had a legendary match with him. I love Shawn's matches with Bulldog, but Bret's two PPV matches with him were better. Bret's matches with Austin were better than Shawn's matches with Steve too, and yes I know Shawn had a bad back in one of those but the KOTR match was a dud too.

I do like Shawn's In Your House match with Diesel but I still prefer Nash's series with Bret personally too. Speaking of Diesel Shawn showed another problem of his in that Mania XI match and that is his unprofessional attitude. Diesel was being groomed as the top star, but rather that try and put him over Shawn made himself the star in that match and made it all about him. Compare that to Diesel's match with Bret two months earlier. Bret, a face, subtlety changed his character to act more heelish so Nash could be the face. Shawn does spectacular dives so he will be cheered.

Then look at babyface Shawn have one of his famous in ring tantrums against the fans at MSG in his match with Sid. He was utterly pathetic there. Plus how many titles did he vacate rather than lose? 4 or 5? Crazy. And how many careers did he help torpedo? Bret made stars, Shawn tried to kill them.

[fw91]

for me he is because I feel that you can look at any random PPV, and remember the match HBK had clearly.

[Amazing Kitsune]

He has a lot of qualities that would put him in the conversation for GOAT. In addition to this, people have been told for decades that he's one of the all time greats. These two factors leads to a lot of fans to assume he's the greatest.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2017 15:27:55 GMT -5 @kn said:

I love HBK and all but I want someone to break this down with examples. I'm not denying it, I actually think it might be true but we need someone to explain why he's so good and use that comparison with others because this isn't the first time it's been brought up. It's like the "Jay-Z is the GOAT" thing. Yeah Jay might be the greatest and people do say that but in the barbershop you need someone to break it down and explain why because you've got other comparisons coming from the woodworks. We need to know why rather than having blanket statement.

You don't want to have a conversation about Shawn Michaels in a barbershop, someone might go through a window.

[Tiger Millionaire]

Shawn Michaels might be the best ever at putting on a performance, but he is not the best professional wrestler. In fact, I wish he has less influence in the business, to be honest. To me, being the best is getting the best emotional responses from the crowd, having them follow your every movement with interest, not so much what moves you can do. Shawn was great, but he was never in his prime Savage, in his prime Steamboat, in his prime Flair in the ring; and he couldn't touch guys like Hogan, Austin, or Rock in terms of charisma.

[KofiMania]

Dec 31, 2017 23:09:30 GMT -5 Woo said:

He's not. At least not to me.

Objectively Randy Savage is the greatest ever. Bret Hart said he was the greatest being a ten in promos, ten in ring work and ten with the superstar look. Also his inring psychology is amongst the best ever. Look at the use of the ring bell throughout this career. I wrote a big post on this forum detailing how this run in the WWE is the best and most narrtively satisfying of any run ever. I also think he gets points for scripting his matches. I know he gets flack for it, but I think it's way his matches are far less repetitive and better stories than those of a Flair or a Michaels.

If Savage isn't the best then it could be Bret Hart. His moveset wasn't as flashy as HBK but he was the best at making everything he did look real. With Bret you believe he is in a real fight. He's even better at in ring psychology than Savage is. As for his promos, I personally see nothing wrong with them. Again they come across as a real man going into a real fight. I buy him completely. His feud with Owen in 1994 and his whole run in 1997 is some of the best mic work in WWE history. In fact his whole run in 1997 is possibly the single greatest year anybody has had in the E. It's been said so many times that HBK is better than Bret on the mic it is taken as fact, but I personally think Shawn was awful. Yes he got better on his comeback and had a few great heel promos with his trolling Montreal and mocking Hogan but his first run was terrible. Shawn was always coked or drunk off his face abs constantly slurred and stammered his way through promos. Bret sometimes she it too, but Shawn might be even worse.

Austin is another who is better than HBK to me. Better promo for sure. He brought real intensity into every role and his psychology was also outstanding. I loved how he lost to Bret at SSeries by not releasing the Million Dollar Dream and he played off that at Mania X7 4 and a half years later. Also Austin proved on 2001 that not only can he play a heel as well as a face but his comedic timing is excellent.

Speaking of comedy how about Kurt Angle? Kurt could do it all. In my opinion he is perhaps the greatest all rounder of all time. He could make you laugh one minute with Sexy Kurt and then go batshit crazy and try to break someones ankle. He was also the single best wrestler of putting someone over by beating them and making them look like stars. Angle made Benoit, Rey, Edge, Cena and even made Essa Rios on Heat look like he might beat the world champion briefly too. Such an unselfish performer. In ring I don't think many people can touch him. Some have called his matches finisher fests, but that's really not fair, not in the WWE certainly and nowhere near the obscene level of HBK's matches with Undertaker.

HBK gets a lot of credit for effectively having two stages for his career that were both great. But Chris Jericho has had at least 3 and that's in the WWE alone. From the cocky Y2J to the suit wearing evil Jericho to the guy with the list, scarf and IT Chris has constantly reinvented himself. Yes not all of it has worked wonders, he was bogged down by Bray Wyatt for a bit, but then Shawn was in DX... and that was almost always crao. Jericho is far better than HBK on the mic and wasn't much worse in the ring either.

Those 5 for me would be better than HBK overall. Benoit and AJ are and were better in the ring, but lacked the promo skills, Roberts was the greatest on the mic, but doesn't have a catalogue of matches that comes close to Shawn,but maybe Foley and Eddie could be ranked above him too?


Don't get me wrong Shawn was great, but compared to Bret, Austin, Savage and Angle be can't be the best ever. Shawn is credited with having 5 star matches with a broom, but really is that the case? Bret had crackers in 1996 with evil pirates and clowns, Angle and AJ can carry anybody to classics but Shawn had a woeful match with Mr Perfect for goodness sake! Bret meanwhile had a legendary match with him. I love Shawn's matches with Bulldog, but Bret's two PPV matches with him were better. Bret's matches with Austin were better than Shawn's matches with Steve too, and yes I know Shawn had a bad back in one of those but the KOTR match was a dud too.

I do like Shawn's In Your House match with Diesel but I still prefer Nash's series with Bret personally too. Speaking of Diesel Shawn showed another problem of his in that Mania XI match and that is his unprofessional attitude. Diesel was being groomed as the top star, but rather that try and put him over Shawn made himself the star in that match and made it all about him. Compare that to Diesel's match with Bret two months earlier. Bret, a face, subtlety changed his character to act more heelish so Nash could be the face. Shawn does spectacular dives so he will be cheered.

Then look at babyface Shawn have one of his famous in ring tantrums against the fans at MSG in his match with Sid. He was utterly pathetic there. Plus how many titles did he vacate rather than lose? 4 or 5? Crazy. And how many careers did he help torpedo? Bret made stars, Shawn tried to kill them.

You made this post as if Shawn's entire second run didn't happen. Shawn was much better on the mic in his second run and much better at psychology, far surpassing Bret's work of the mid-90s. In-ring, he had countless classics in his second run and again his storytelling was unparalleled. Jericho in-ring isn't even close to Shawn.

And Shawn's second run was even longer than his first as a singles competitor, going nearly 8 full years, so disregarding it is disregarding the main reason people consider him the best wrestler. You wouldn't find many making that argument just based on his 1995-1998 main event run.

[Deleted]

I'll add to my earlier point, Shawn isn't my favourite ever. He's in my top 10, maybe top 5, but in terms of all round skillset he scores higher than some guys I like more.

I always think of Bryan Alvarez's point. It's not possible for Flair or Shawn to have bad matches. If they set out to have a deliberately bad match it would be entertaining in a whole other way.

[Tea & Crumpets]

Dec 30, 2017 22:43:54 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

I don't think Jericho is anywhere near HBK in terms of in-ring work/storytelling.

I can understand this argument because yes, HBK's had more classics. But HBK also often had higher calibre guys to work with in terms of storytelling- Scott Hall at his peak, Foley at his peak, Bret at his peak, Austin at his peak, Undertaker during the best years of the Streak era. Jericho didn't tend to get paired with guys on that level, but when he did- Benoit, Malenko, Rey for example- it was great. And I still argue he had terrific ability at adapting to his opponent's style and pulling a good match out of them, whether it be his Cruiserweight days, transitioning to the WWE main event style, hell I actually enjoyed his matches with Goldberg particularly the Bad Blood match. I'll agree that Jericho doesn't have the collection of 5 star matches that HBK has, but again, how many times in comparison did Jericho work with someone on the level of the guys HBK worked with?


On the subject of Savage, I tend to find looking back that I actually quite like his WCW run. He does come across like a bit of an out of touch old man, but at the same time he's Macho Madness. It kind of works with his whole gimmick. And his DDP matches are proof that scripting a match out can work just as well as calling it in the ring. Heck, didn't he script his matches out his whole career?

[KofiMania]

Jan 1, 2018 6:22:14 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

Dec 30, 2017 22:43:54 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

I don't think Jericho is anywhere near HBK in terms of in-ring work/storytelling.

I can understand this argument because yes, HBK's had more classics. But HBK also often had higher calibre guys to work with in terms of storytelling- Scott Hall at his peak, Foley at his peak, Bret at his peak, Austin at his peak, Undertaker during the best years of the Streak era. Jericho didn't tend to get paired with guys on that level, but when he did- Benoit, Malenko, Rey for example- it was great. And I still argue he had terrific ability at adapting to his opponent's style and pulling a good match out of them, whether it be his Cruiserweight days, transitioning to the WWE main event style, hell I actually enjoyed his matches with Goldberg particularly the Bad Blood match. I'll agree that Jericho doesn't have the collection of 5 star matches that HBK has, but again, how many times in comparison did Jericho work with someone on the level of the guys HBK worked with?


On the subject of Savage, I tend to find looking back that I actually quite like his WCW run. He does come across like a bit of an out of touch old man, but at the same time he's Macho Madness. It kind of works with his whole gimmick. And his DDP matches are proof that scripting a match out can work just as well as calling it in the ring. Heck, didn't he script his matches out his whole career?

I can't buy that argument at all. Jericho worked with almost all of the same people HBK worked with. And again I'm not saying Jericho was not a very good worker, because he was and still is to an extent, but he just never reached that level that HBK basically always resided in.

[Woo]

Jan 1, 2018 1:19:00 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Dec 31, 2017 23:09:30 GMT -5 Woo said:

He's not. At least not to me.

Objectively Randy Savage is the greatest ever. Bret Hart said he was the greatest being a ten in promos, ten in ring work and ten with the superstar look. Also his inring psychology is amongst the best ever. Look at the use of the ring bell throughout this career. I wrote a big post on this forum detailing how this run in the WWE is the best and most narrtively satisfying of any run ever. I also think he gets points for scripting his matches. I know he gets flack for it, but I think it's way his matches are far less repetitive and better stories than those of a Flair or a Michaels.

If Savage isn't the best then it could be Bret Hart. His moveset wasn't as flashy as HBK but he was the best at making everything he did look real. With Bret you believe he is in a real fight. He's even better at in ring psychology than Savage is. As for his promos, I personally see nothing wrong with them. Again they come across as a real man going into a real fight. I buy him completely. His feud with Owen in 1994 and his whole run in 1997 is some of the best mic work in WWE history. In fact his whole run in 1997 is possibly the single greatest year anybody has had in the E. It's been said so many times that HBK is better than Bret on the mic it is taken as fact, but I personally think Shawn was awful. Yes he got better on his comeback and had a few great heel promos with his trolling Montreal and mocking Hogan but his first run was terrible. Shawn was always coked or drunk off his face abs constantly slurred and stammered his way through promos. Bret sometimes she it too, but Shawn might be even worse.

Austin is another who is better than HBK to me. Better promo for sure. He brought real intensity into every role and his psychology was also outstanding. I loved how he lost to Bret at SSeries by not releasing the Million Dollar Dream and he played off that at Mania X7 4 and a half years later. Also Austin proved on 2001 that not only can he play a heel as well as a face but his comedic timing is excellent.

Speaking of comedy how about Kurt Angle? Kurt could do it all. In my opinion he is perhaps the greatest all rounder of all time. He could make you laugh one minute with Sexy Kurt and then go batshit crazy and try to break someones ankle. He was also the single best wrestler of putting someone over by beating them and making them look like stars. Angle made Benoit, Rey, Edge, Cena and even made Essa Rios on Heat look like he might beat the world champion briefly too. Such an unselfish performer. In ring I don't think many people can touch him. Some have called his matches finisher fests, but that's really not fair, not in the WWE certainly and nowhere near the obscene level of HBK's matches with Undertaker.

HBK gets a lot of credit for effectively having two stages for his career that were both great. But Chris Jericho has had at least 3 and that's in the WWE alone. From the cocky Y2J to the suit wearing evil Jericho to the guy with the list, scarf and IT Chris has constantly reinvented himself. Yes not all of it has worked wonders, he was bogged down by Bray Wyatt for a bit, but then Shawn was in DX... and that was almost always crao. Jericho is far better than HBK on the mic and wasn't much worse in the ring either.

Those 5 for me would be better than HBK overall. Benoit and AJ are and were better in the ring, but lacked the promo skills, Roberts was the greatest on the mic, but doesn't have a catalogue of matches that comes close to Shawn,but maybe Foley and Eddie could be ranked above him too?


Don't get me wrong Shawn was great, but compared to Bret, Austin, Savage and Angle be can't be the best ever. Shawn is credited with having 5 star matches with a broom, but really is that the case? Bret had crackers in 1996 with evil pirates and clowns, Angle and AJ can carry anybody to classics but Shawn had a woeful match with Mr Perfect for goodness sake! Bret meanwhile had a legendary match with him. I love Shawn's matches with Bulldog, but Bret's two PPV matches with him were better. Bret's matches with Austin were better than Shawn's matches with Steve too, and yes I know Shawn had a bad back in one of those but the KOTR match was a dud too.

I do like Shawn's In Your House match with Diesel but I still prefer Nash's series with Bret personally too. Speaking of Diesel Shawn showed another problem of his in that Mania XI match and that is his unprofessional attitude. Diesel was being groomed as the top star, but rather that try and put him over Shawn made himself the star in that match and made it all about him. Compare that to Diesel's match with Bret two months earlier. Bret, a face, subtlety changed his character to act more heelish so Nash could be the face. Shawn does spectacular dives so he will be cheered.

Then look at babyface Shawn have one of his famous in ring tantrums against the fans at MSG in his match with Sid. He was utterly pathetic there. Plus how many titles did he vacate rather than lose? 4 or 5? Crazy. And how many careers did he help torpedo? Bret made stars, Shawn tried to kill them.

You made this post as if Shawn's entire second run didn't happen. Shawn was much better on the mic in his second run and much better at psychology, far surpassing Bret's work of the mid-90s. In-ring, he had countless classics in his second run and again his storytelling was unparalleled. Jericho in-ring isn't even close to Shawn.

And Shawn's second run was even longer than his first as a singles competitor, going nearly 8 full years, so disregarding it is disregarding the main reason people consider him the best wrestler. You wouldn't find many making that argument just based on his 1995-1998 main event run.

I didn't ignore it. I said his mic work was far better than his first run. So I can't remember that many incredible promos he cut.

I also don't think he has nearly as many great matches in his second run as people think. Summerslam 2002, Wrestlemania with Angle (though he pissed me off so much in that match), Wrestlemania XX,Jericho at Mania, Backlash 04, Flair.... Now I struggling. I for one thought the Undertaker matches especially the second were overrated and would point to them two as being the start of WWE's decline into an overuse of finishers substituted for drama that we can now see in every Cena and HHH match.

I don't know where this great psychology is honestly.

The best thing in his entire second run was the feud with Jericho. The Angle stuff was great as was some of the HHH and Taker stuff and his very brief heel run, but I can't remember much outside that. Some have said every PPV match he had was a classic but for every Jericho and Angle feud there was a forgettable one with Chris Masters, Kane and JBL. His refusal to turn heel made him so stale to me and he sort of meandered in the midcard until it was time for Mania.

[Tiger Millionaire]

Shawn's 2nd run, as great as it was, has the benefit of being protected by the office, which was essentially his best friend. The one time he didn't get his way he threw a hissy fit and tried to torpedo the Main Event of a PPV, and then bury the shit out of it the next day.

[KofiMania]

Jan 1, 2018 13:47:12 GMT -5 Woo said:

Jan 1, 2018 1:19:00 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

You made this post as if Shawn's entire second run didn't happen. Shawn was much better on the mic in his second run and much better at psychology, far surpassing Bret's work of the mid-90s. In-ring, he had countless classics in his second run and again his storytelling was unparalleled. Jericho in-ring isn't even close to Shawn.

And Shawn's second run was even longer than his first as a singles competitor, going nearly 8 full years, so disregarding it is disregarding the main reason people consider him the best wrestler. You wouldn't find many making that argument just based on his 1995-1998 main event run.

I didn't ignore it. I said his mic work was far better than his first run. So I can't remember that many incredible promos he cut.

I also don't think he has nearly as many great matches in his second run as people think. Summerslam 2002, Wrestlemania with Angle (though he pissed me off so much in that match), Wrestlemania XX,Jericho at Mania, Backlash 04, Flair.... Now I struggling. I for one thought the Undertaker matches especially the second were overrated and would point to them two as being the start of WWE's decline into an overuse of finishers substituted for drama that we can now see in every Cena and HHH match.

I don't know where this great psychology is honestly.

The best thing in his entire second run was the feud with Jericho. The Angle stuff was great as was some of the HHH and Taker stuff and his very brief heel run, but I can't remember much outside that. Some have said every PPV match he had was a classic but for every Jericho and Angle feud there was a forgettable one with Chris Masters, Kane and JBL. His refusal to turn heel made him so stale to me and he sort of meandered in the midcard until it was time for Mania.

You were ignoring it because you were merely menitioning his matches with Diesel and Sid and the like without focusing on the classics after his return.

And he most certainly had as many great matches as people think in his second run. Summerslam 2002, the Mania triple threat and subsequent rematch, the hour-long match with Cena on Raw, the Cena Mania match, the Mania match with Jericho, the series of matches with Jericho during Jericho's SRS run, the Angle matches, his other matches with HHH (there were 3-4 of them), his Mania matches with Taker, his Survivor Series match with Orton, he carried Vince and Hogan to entertaining PPV matches, the Flair Mania match, just off the top of my head. Psychology and storytelling wise he had the great Flair feud, the feud with Taker leading into his retirement (his whole becoming obsessed with the streak was great storytelling), the feud with serious Jericho involving his wife.

[Hanky McCranky Jr.]

I wouldn't call him the all-time greatest, but he's up there. He was the total package: looks, longevity, charisma, talent, psychology, was just as good a face as he was a heel, etc. He had the ego to go along with it, especially during his first run when he thought he was God's Gift to wrestling. But I think he was one of the most complete wrestlers to have ever lived.

[Tea & Crumpets]

Jan 1, 2018 11:58:54 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Jan 1, 2018 6:22:14 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

I can understand this argument because yes, HBK's had more classics. But HBK also often had higher calibre guys to work with in terms of storytelling- Scott Hall at his peak, Foley at his peak, Bret at his peak, Austin at his peak, Undertaker during the best years of the Streak era. Jericho didn't tend to get paired with guys on that level, but when he did- Benoit, Malenko, Rey for example- it was great. And I still argue he had terrific ability at adapting to his opponent's style and pulling a good match out of them, whether it be his Cruiserweight days, transitioning to the WWE main event style, hell I actually enjoyed his matches with Goldberg particularly the Bad Blood match. I'll agree that Jericho doesn't have the collection of 5 star matches that HBK has, but again, how many times in comparison did Jericho work with someone on the level of the guys HBK worked with?


On the subject of Savage, I tend to find looking back that I actually quite like his WCW run. He does come across like a bit of an out of touch old man, but at the same time he's Macho Madness. It kind of works with his whole gimmick. And his DDP matches are proof that scripting a match out can work just as well as calling it in the ring. Heck, didn't he script his matches out his whole career?

I can't buy that argument at all. Jericho worked with almost all of the same people HBK worked with. And again I'm not saying Jericho was not a very good worker, because he was and still is to an extent, but he just never reached that level that HBK basically always resided in.

Except he didn't, really. Jericho worked Undertaker for the first time in 2009 in a throwaway match on Smackdown. They didn't wrestle again. Jericho worked Foley, when he was already broken down, in a throwaway match on Smackdown in 99, they didn't wrestle again. He never worked Bret. He only worked Hall on throwaway Nitros when Hall was also past his best. He worked Austin in a couple of big matches and IMO delivered in them every bit as much as HBK/Austin.
Most of Shawn's classic opponents wrestled Shawn on big occasions and were given time and room to steal the show. Jericho only ever worked those same people in quick 10 minute TV affairs. The other guys Shawn had his best matches with, like Triple H or John Cena, Jericho also had great matches with when given actual time. But Jericho very, very rarely got the same opportunity to have great matches, because he rarely got the same calibre of opponent in the same size slot- even with the Undisputed Champion run he was basically a midcarder except from 2008 until 2010 and the first part of his 2012 comeback. When he did get bigger opportunities I personally really enjoyed his work. His ladder match with Benoit is just as good as HBK/Razor for me. And it's another reason I wish he hadn't taken his hiatuses from 05-07 and 2011, to see how he'd have done working more often with some top opponents.

And even if we take the argument that no, it's on Jericho that his body of work in ring doesn't match Shawn's, I still think he wins out on promos, creativity & attitude and matches him on charisma & looks. I'd probably put Savage ahead of Shawn too. Maybe Flair. HBK is an all-time great but for me, he's not the best ever. Close, but doesn't quite make it.

[2coldMack is even more baffled]

Also, and I've had this blasphemous opinion before, but....his 'Mania matches with Undertaker suck. Where's the "psychology" in them doing moves at each other and a ton of false finishes for 20 minutes? Those matches were "big move, kickout, big move, kick out, big move, oh, i bet it's a....yep, it's a kickout!" Isn't that the type of match the types that always scream "PSYCHOLOGY!" at indy/Japanese guys hate?

[KofiMania]

Jan 1, 2018 15:02:26 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

Jan 1, 2018 11:58:54 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

I can't buy that argument at all. Jericho worked with almost all of the same people HBK worked with. And again I'm not saying Jericho was not a very good worker, because he was and still is to an extent, but he just never reached that level that HBK basically always resided in.

Except he didn't, really. Jericho worked Undertaker for the first time in 2009 in a throwaway match on Smackdown. They didn't wrestle again. Jericho worked Foley, when he was already broken down, in a throwaway match on Smackdown in 99, they didn't wrestle again. He never worked Bret. He only worked Hall on throwaway Nitros when Hall was also past his best. He worked Austin in a couple of big matches and IMO delivered in them every bit as much as HBK/Austin.
Most of Shawn's classic opponents wrestled Shawn on big occasions and were given time and room to steal the show. Jericho only ever worked those same people in quick 10 minute TV affairs. The other guys Shawn had his best matches with, like Triple H or John Cena, Jericho also had great matches with when given actual time. But Jericho very, very rarely got the same opportunity to have great matches, because he rarely got the same calibre of opponent in the same size slot- even with the Undisputed Champion run he was basically a midcarder except from 2008 until 2010 and the first part of his 2012 comeback. When he did get bigger opportunities I personally really enjoyed his work. His ladder match with Benoit is just as good as HBK/Razor for me. And it's another reason I wish he hadn't taken his hiatuses from 05-07 and 2011, to see how he'd have done working more often with some top opponents.

And even if we take the argument that no, it's on Jericho that his body of work in ring doesn't match Shawn's, I still think he wins out on promos, creativity & attitude and matches him on charisma & looks. I'd probably put Savage ahead of Shawn too. Maybe Flair. HBK is an all-time great but for me, he's not the best ever. Close, but doesn't quite make it.

Promos, creativity and attitude, sure Jericho might win. But I think in-ring work is what's really being asked about in this thread. Not to mention attitude doesn't really mean anything as far as the product on-screen is concerned. And even if Jericho didn't get the same opportunities, you can't just assume he'd deliver at the level Michaels did when given the opportunities. Jericho's more of a 3.5-4 star level type of wrestler, whereas HBK in a big match can be pretty much expected to deliver a 4-star plus affair.

[2coldMack is even more baffled]

Jan 1, 2018 15:07:10 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Jan 1, 2018 15:02:26 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

Except he didn't, really. Jericho worked Undertaker for the first time in 2009 in a throwaway match on Smackdown. They didn't wrestle again. Jericho worked Foley, when he was already broken down, in a throwaway match on Smackdown in 99, they didn't wrestle again. He never worked Bret. He only worked Hall on throwaway Nitros when Hall was also past his best. He worked Austin in a couple of big matches and IMO delivered in them every bit as much as HBK/Austin.
Most of Shawn's classic opponents wrestled Shawn on big occasions and were given time and room to steal the show. Jericho only ever worked those same people in quick 10 minute TV affairs. The other guys Shawn had his best matches with, like Triple H or John Cena, Jericho also had great matches with when given actual time. But Jericho very, very rarely got the same opportunity to have great matches, because he rarely got the same calibre of opponent in the same size slot- even with the Undisputed Champion run he was basically a midcarder except from 2008 until 2010 and the first part of his 2012 comeback. When he did get bigger opportunities I personally really enjoyed his work. His ladder match with Benoit is just as good as HBK/Razor for me. And it's another reason I wish he hadn't taken his hiatuses from 05-07 and 2011, to see how he'd have done working more often with some top opponents.

And even if we take the argument that no, it's on Jericho that his body of work in ring doesn't match Shawn's, I still think he wins out on promos, creativity & attitude and matches him on charisma & looks. I'd probably put Savage ahead of Shawn too. Maybe Flair. HBK is an all-time great but for me, he's not the best ever. Close, but doesn't quite make it.

Promos, creativity and attitude, sure Jericho might win. But I think in-ring work is what's really being asked about in this thread. Not to mention attitude doesn't really mean anything as far as the product on-screen is concerned. And even if Jericho didn't get the same opportunities, you can't just assume he'd deliver at the level Michaels did when given the opportunities. Jericho's more of a 3.5-4 star level type of wrestler, whereas HBK in a big match can be pretty much expected to deliver a 4-star plus affair.

Attitude absolutely matters when discussing Shawn's in-ring output, considering how many matches he torpedoed by having tantrums in the middle of them.

[KofiMania]

Jan 1, 2018 15:06:55 GMT -5 2coldMack is even more baffled said:

Also, and I've had this blasphemous opinion before, but....his 'Mania matches with Undertaker suck. Where's the "psychology" in them doing moves at each other and a ton of false finishes for 20 minutes? Those matches were "big move, kickout, big move, kick out, big move, oh, i bet it's a....yep, it's a kickout!" Isn't that the type of match the types that always scream "PSYCHOLOGY!" at indy/Japanese guys hate?

The 25 match was not simply big moves. That was the ending 5-10 minute portion of the match. That type of match was also extremely rare in WWE at the time, so it was fresh and exciting. 26 also relied on that but again that was still a fresh type of finishing sequence at that time and it also had the added effect of people hoping Michaels wouldn't have to retire.

[KofiMania]

Jan 1, 2018 15:09:03 GMT -5 2coldMack is even more baffled said:

Jan 1, 2018 15:07:10 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Promos, creativity and attitude, sure Jericho might win. But I think in-ring work is what's really being asked about in this thread. Not to mention attitude doesn't really mean anything as far as the product on-screen is concerned. And even if Jericho didn't get the same opportunities, you can't just assume he'd deliver at the level Michaels did when given the opportunities. Jericho's more of a 3.5-4 star level type of wrestler, whereas HBK in a big match can be pretty much expected to deliver a 4-star plus affair.

Attitude absolutely matters when discussing Shawn's in-ring output, considering how many matches he torpedoed by having tantrums in the middle of them.

Which matches were torpedoed? I thought the Vader match was great and the Hogan match was far more entertaining than it had any right to be (it's actually a solid match and the Benny Hill video of Shawn's crazy bumps makes it look like a joke, whereas the actual match was good.)

And when I said attitude doesn't matter, I meant the backstage attitudes as that doesn't matter to an audience. If something happens in the ring attitude-related then all that does is affect that particular performance, and I don't think of his matches as being "torpedoed."

[Tea & Crumpets]

Jan 1, 2018 15:07:10 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Jan 1, 2018 15:02:26 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

Except he didn't, really. Jericho worked Undertaker for the first time in 2009 in a throwaway match on Smackdown. They didn't wrestle again. Jericho worked Foley, when he was already broken down, in a throwaway match on Smackdown in 99, they didn't wrestle again. He never worked Bret. He only worked Hall on throwaway Nitros when Hall was also past his best. He worked Austin in a couple of big matches and IMO delivered in them every bit as much as HBK/Austin.
Most of Shawn's classic opponents wrestled Shawn on big occasions and were given time and room to steal the show. Jericho only ever worked those same people in quick 10 minute TV affairs. The other guys Shawn had his best matches with, like Triple H or John Cena, Jericho also had great matches with when given actual time. But Jericho very, very rarely got the same opportunity to have great matches, because he rarely got the same calibre of opponent in the same size slot- even with the Undisputed Champion run he was basically a midcarder except from 2008 until 2010 and the first part of his 2012 comeback. When he did get bigger opportunities I personally really enjoyed his work. His ladder match with Benoit is just as good as HBK/Razor for me. And it's another reason I wish he hadn't taken his hiatuses from 05-07 and 2011, to see how he'd have done working more often with some top opponents.

And even if we take the argument that no, it's on Jericho that his body of work in ring doesn't match Shawn's, I still think he wins out on promos, creativity & attitude and matches him on charisma & looks. I'd probably put Savage ahead of Shawn too. Maybe Flair. HBK is an all-time great but for me, he's not the best ever. Close, but doesn't quite make it.

Promos, creativity and attitude, sure Jericho might win. But I think in-ring work is what's really being asked about in this thread. Not to mention attitude doesn't really mean anything as far as the product on-screen is concerned. And even if Jericho didn't get the same opportunities, you can't just assume he'd deliver at the level Michaels did when given the opportunities. Jericho's more of a 3.5-4 star level type of wrestler, whereas HBK in a big match can be pretty much expected to deliver a 4-star plus affair.

I don't think you can assume he wouldn't deliver either, given again, when he DID get matches with comparable talent, plus time, they were pretty damn good.

Really, I'm wanting to see how Jericho/Omega is this week. I think it could go some way in making or breaking my argument tbh haha.

And if we are talking PURELY in ring there's several guys I'd put ahead of Shawn, I thought the topic was about the total package GOAT.