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Post by eJm on Jan 5, 2018 12:22:21 GMT -5
Except that the commentary is, by extension, Vince's voice, and we have to put up with Cole & Graves gushing while Booker is annoyed. Cole gushes over Elias too. Is Elias supposed to be loved? That's something I don't get on commentary, either. Like, I get that you're supposed to hype up talent but when you're bouncing between gushing and calling them despicable every few seconds, it's hard to get invested in characters. It wasn't like that 5 years ago, never mind 10.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 5, 2018 12:23:47 GMT -5
Cole gushes over Elias too. Is Elias supposed to be loved? That's something I don't get on commentary, either. Like, I get that you're supposed to hype up talent but when you're bouncing between gushing and calling them despicable every few seconds, it's hard to get invested in characters. It wasn't like that 5 years ago, never mind 10. Oh for sure. Commentary is a mess. I just don't think that Michael Cole at this point is the extension of Vince's voice. Michael Cole is pretty much his own character.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 5, 2018 12:24:01 GMT -5
I still am trying to really put my finger on the it: I can't decide if the WWE directly booked Bayley dead, or their terrible never ending SuperAlexa push killed Bayley dead as a side effect It's a little of both
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 5, 2018 12:24:46 GMT -5
Cole gushes over Elias too. Is Elias supposed to be loved? That's something I don't get on commentary, either. Like, I get that you're supposed to hype up talent but when you're bouncing between gushing and calling them despicable every few seconds, it's hard to get invested in characters. It wasn't like that 5 years ago, never mind 10. It’s their directive of “call it like you’re with your buddies at the bar”, I’m certain. That has to be why we get these extended dialogues where they’re just all cracking wise about each other.
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Post by eJm on Jan 5, 2018 12:30:08 GMT -5
Oh for sure. Commentary is a mess. I just don't think that Michael Cole at this point is the extension of Vince's voice. Michael Cole is pretty much his own character. I get you, yeah. It's hard to tell sometimes for me but it feels like Vince's voice has spread to everyone at random times for no real consistent reason. It’s their directive of “call it like you’re with your buddies at the bar”, I’m certain. That has to be why we get these extended dialogues where they’re just all cracking wise about each other. Which I have always found weird because, well, I have friends I watch wrestling with and crack wise with them. I've been in bars with people and done the same thing. As a result, I sometimes don't listen to that moment in the commentary. Like...that's not something I really want because, well, that makes me care less about the visuals. I'm not expecting an easy comparison to sports but you want to feel like the people talking about the subject know what they're talking about most of the time even if it's a fake sport.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,477
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 5, 2018 12:33:39 GMT -5
The Bliss feud absolutely murdered her. Very hard to come back with Bliss saying she was a loser and then soundly beating her several times.
Speaking of Bliss, and kinda related but Sasha is close to Bayley territory too, thanks to Alexa
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Totorob101
Hank Scorpio
Glob Glob Glob
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Post by Totorob101 on Jan 5, 2018 12:35:37 GMT -5
Vince and Kevin Dunn seem to love bitchy nasty and crazy heel women, theres no other explanation to there horrendous treatment of bayley. She's a great role model, talented and relateable but I guess her look isn't what they like. May as well turn her and have done with it. And Becky as she's not going to get much either. They just can't or don't want to make a likeable nice female as the face of the women's division do they?
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,065
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 5, 2018 12:44:14 GMT -5
You know, between her and Finn, I wonder what Hunter is telling the call-ups. It cannot be easy to see guys and gals that were super over get turned into nothing like this. This is why he was so insistent on not letting Vince have Asuka until Vince just said "Well I'm putting her on RAW anyway".
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,461
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Post by Rican on Jan 5, 2018 12:47:13 GMT -5
You know, between her and Finn, I wonder what Hunter is telling the call-ups. It cannot be easy to see guys and gals that were super over get turned into nothing like this. I wonder when the breaking point for this is going to be. NXT is creating unrealistic expectations of what life on the main roster is going to be like and it has to be so frustrating for the talent coming through.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 5, 2018 12:49:42 GMT -5
I mean...WWE booked her like shit. If you book someone like shit, and they're not as over as they once were, what else did you expect was going to happen? Like, if I had a friend who was a good person, I treated them like crap and then they stopped being my friend, the f*** did I expect to happen? For them to still be around? Again, what's the point of developing talents in NXT when you're going to call them up for no reason and not even capitalise on the hype your developmental (not ROH, not PWG, not CZW etc) gives them? Why not just get Danny Davis back and give OVW money again? I do think that is a flaw in the modern developmental system. OVW, for all it's faults, was mostly a small time thing. So when guys got called up, there wasn't a ton of expectation followed by immediate deflation that we get a lot with NXT.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,065
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 5, 2018 12:53:58 GMT -5
You know, between her and Finn, I wonder what Hunter is telling the call-ups. It cannot be easy to see guys and gals that were super over get turned into nothing like this. I wonder when the breaking point for this is going to be. NXT is creating unrealistic expectations of what life on the main roster is going to be like and it has to be so frustrating for the talent coming through. It's kind of sad, but now I'm looking at the whole "Farewell Ceremony" they did for Asuka as HHH personally pre-apologizing to her for how she's probably not going to be used as well on RAW.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 5, 2018 12:54:59 GMT -5
I wonder how many people the crowd can like and get behind and support can be swatted down like bugs before the audience just burns out and gets too demoralized and numb to care. This heel-dominant booking paired with the backwards sensibilities and disregard for crowd reactions can't be good fore keeping people invested or reacting at all. The gulf between the reactions to megapushed acts and everyone else is only going to get bigger because peoples' voices mean literally nothing to them. AJ isn't pushed because the crowd loves him, he's pushed because Vince is paying him a lot of money. The Shield guys were handpicked for their spots and destined for greatness from the moment they debuted, and the only one whose push to the top was even kind of 'organic' was the one they didn't immediately put at the top of the card after the breakup. Hell, everyone can stubbornly fight the push of one of them and they just get told to behave.
I've long held wrestling has something valuable that almost no other medium has in the form of a crowd who will tell you right then and there what they want and who they like. Deciding their voices don't matter is one of Vince's biggest acts of hubris.
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Post by eJm on Jan 5, 2018 12:55:08 GMT -5
I mean...WWE booked her like shit. If you book someone like shit, and they're not as over as they once were, what else did you expect was going to happen? Like, if I had a friend who was a good person, I treated them like crap and then they stopped being my friend, the f*** did I expect to happen? For them to still be around? Again, what's the point of developing talents in NXT when you're going to call them up for no reason and not even capitalise on the hype your developmental (not ROH, not PWG, not CZW etc) gives them? Why not just get Danny Davis back and give OVW money again? I do think that is a flaw in the modern developmental system. OVW, for all it's faults, was mostly a small time thing. So when guys got called up, there wasn't a ton of expectation followed by immediate deflation that we get a lot with NXT. It doesn't even have to be a flaw. It's like saying that the minor leagues don't prepare you for the pressure of the majors. Sure, they don't expect pressure on the media coverage or publicity but the intention of being there in the first place is to craft you as a star to work in the WWE system. If developmental isn't adapted for the main roster or the main roster isn't adapted for NXT, then what the hell are we even doing here? We can talk about smarks and audiences and expectations all we want to but for me, at the end of the day, WWE is signing talent to basically blame them for not adapting to a system that changes on the whims of an old man on top. Like...I don't understand it. It doesn't make people want to watch NXT on the Network because the main roster'll make them look like a joke so then Joe Public thinks "Well, NXT must not be worthwhile because they can't work on the main roster". So, again, what the hell are we even doing here?
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Juice
El Dandy
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Post by Juice on Jan 5, 2018 12:56:28 GMT -5
Does it have anything to do with the amount of botches, bad promos, and generally not being comfortable in a large arena vs full sail?
Cause,Bayley has been all of those for most of her run.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,601
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Post by trollrogue on Jan 5, 2018 13:00:39 GMT -5
I have a gut feeling this is all setting up Bayley to be in #1 in the Rumble and go on to win against Nia Jax and Asuka as the last 3 to create an 'underdog' 'Mania match for her. Would be a perfect HBK-like story for her.
But this newz from Metz has me rethinking if they will actually allow that story to unfold. She should've been on SDLive after being called up where even Lana got over for a few weeks against the SDLive champ.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jan 5, 2018 13:01:04 GMT -5
That's something I don't get on commentary, either. Like, I get that you're supposed to hype up talent but when you're bouncing between gushing and calling them despicable every few seconds, it's hard to get invested in characters. It wasn't like that 5 years ago, never mind 10. Actually, I'd argue that it was 5 years ago (around Cole's heel run) that this nonsense really started to pick up when it came to the sporadic support/shunning each person had. Having watched WK12 (only halfway through) and listening to the English commentary provided by Kevin Kelly and Don Callis, their roles were clearly defined as play-by-play and color, and neither really overshadowed the talent with nonsensical buzzwords or trying to tell the audience how they should feel instead of letting the action speak for itself. That's the biggest problem I have with commentary today: they'll do everything in their power to narrate what Vince and Co. wants the audience to think about situations or individual stars. Yes, in certain aspects this can be useful for the casual audience member; but it's gotten to the point where a lot of their crappy back-and-forth is forced and makes it hard to concentrate on the promos/wrestling in the ring. It goes without saying that if they ever offered an 'alternate audio channel' that eliminated the commentary teams and just used arena audio, I'd be ALL over that.
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Big Poppa Pumpkin
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Big Poppa Pumpkin on Jan 5, 2018 13:06:26 GMT -5
the WWE Universe just doesn't seem to be taking a shine to THE HUGGABLE ONE™
that Bliss feud absolutely killed her stone dead, what a shame.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on Jan 5, 2018 13:10:15 GMT -5
Except that the commentary is, by extension, Vince's voice, and we have to put up with Cole & Graves gushing while Booker is annoyed. Cole gushes over Elias too. Is Elias supposed to be loved? Yes He is a man who just wants to sing for ungrateful fans and yet always gets interrupted.
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Post by eJm on Jan 5, 2018 13:12:41 GMT -5
That's something I don't get on commentary, either. Like, I get that you're supposed to hype up talent but when you're bouncing between gushing and calling them despicable every few seconds, it's hard to get invested in characters. It wasn't like that 5 years ago, never mind 10. Actually, I'd argue that it was 5 years ago (around Cole's heel run) that this nonsense really started to pick up when it came to the sporadic support/shunning each person had. Having watched WK12 (only halfway through) and listening to the English commentary provided by Kevin Kelly and Don Callis, their roles were clearly defined as play-by-play and color, and neither really overshadowed the talent with nonsensical buzzwords or trying to tell the audience how they should feel instead of letting the action speak for itself. I will say that, for as much as I liked the team, there were a few winks and nods to insider terms and the nonsense at the start of the Okada/Naito match about the booking odds on star ratings which I saw what they were going for but they didn't need to go that far with it. Like, in that situation, I would have hyped that Okada knows about the WK main event and Naito doesn't and has had a worse time with the talent he's faced at the Dome (like Okada, Styles etc) than his opponent whose faced everyone from Mutoh to Nakamura to Omega. Besides that, I'm in agreement. And for all the talk of that, the stuff where Callis goes "If I were to own a wrestling promotion" got a chuckle from me. Yeah, I can agree with that. It doesn't even feel like they have a direction from how they want to craft the show with the commentary, they just do things regardless of if they even fit the segment or match in place or not.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 5, 2018 13:22:08 GMT -5
NXT will always have a big problem with main roster transitions as long as the guy who books it, runs developmental, signs talents, and has his own ideas of who the stars are moves in a philosophy totally at odds with the erratic, out of touch madman up top. Like regardless of what tastes Triple H might have, the fact he's willing to push someone he doesn't 'get' if the crowd responds well and he thinks there's money to be made there speaks to an approach completely out of the way from Vince. Nothing that they can teach people in NXT will prepare them for Vince, full stop.
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