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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 17, 2018 18:22:38 GMT -5
They need to focus on getting Reigns over first. That's his real problem. It doesn't matter if he's a face or a heel now. He's just flat out not over, because he's booked like a choker. He needs to start winning more decisively. Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on May 17, 2018 18:31:31 GMT -5
They need to focus on getting Reigns over first. That's his real problem. It doesn't matter if he's a face or a heel now. He's just flat out not over, because he's booked like a choker. He needs to start winning more decisively. Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. Exactly. Him being a "choke artist" isn't why the fans overall soured on him, and him "winning more" isn't what's going to fix anything. I guarantee had Roman won at WM and defended against Joe at Backlash, the fans would still have walked out. Roman not winning isn't the issue. Roman winning TOO much is what got us here. He was handed a title shot straight out of the Shield breakup, and had opportunity after opportunity, was handed accolade after accolade when it was transparently clear he wasn't what the fans wanted and wasn't ready. They took the weakest member of The Shield and pushed him to the moon solely based on how he looks. Then they gave him blue contacts. I don't even know anymore. I've said before if he went full Meta, acknowledged being Vince's "corporate pick" (much like the Rock) and that he was handed everything because he's better than everyone in the back, that would be a good start. and maybe stop spamming Superman Punches 500 times a match.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on May 17, 2018 18:33:05 GMT -5
Until as a character he becomes interesting, I won't. The problem is he was never OVER as a solo act and he was push to hard before we as fans even had a remote chance to find him believable. The whole lets stick a rocket up his ass and make him superman doesn't work and wasn't EVER going too. Main guys comes in waves and fans want change. The don't want the same thing over and over again. Making Reigns and booking him like Cena is failure from day one because fans where tired of Cena so why would they be happy with someone that is doing the same thing? Austin worked so much because he was different to what Hogan was. The Rock got over because he was different than Austin and Hogan. Cena worked because enough time passed since Hogan or that superman face. So Reigns coming in repeating that without giving us fans something different to break the pattern, is why it doesn't work.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 18:34:26 GMT -5
Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. Roman's only really Looked Strong (or as strong as the memes portray) during the lead up to Mania, which has been the problem for pretty much his whole run, though even this year bucked that trend. WWE refuses to either go all-in on Roman's push or seriously scale him back, so he's stuck in this shitty half-assed limbo where he Looks Strong but, unlike Cena before him, isn't the undisputed best guy in the company. I think if WWE had actually gone forward with Roman as a world-beater, a good chunk of the crowd would've eventually gone "**** it, I guess we're stuck with this guy" and his reactions would likely be more favorable, like what happened to Cena.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 17, 2018 18:36:29 GMT -5
Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. Roman's only really Looked Strong (or as strong as the memes portray) during the lead up to Mania, which has been the problem for pretty much his whole run, though even this year bucked that trend. WWE refuses to either go all-in on Roman's push or seriously scale him back, so he's stuck in this shitty half-assed limbo where he Looks Strong but, unlike Cena before him, isn't the undisputed best guy in the company. I think if WWE had actually gone forward with Roman as a world-beater, a good chunk of the crowd would've eventually gone "**** it, I guess we're stuck with this guy" and his reactions would likely be more favorable, like what happened to Cena. I disagree entirely. If the fans were going to go "f*** it let's cheer him for funsies because nothing is changing anyways" that would have happened already and we wouldn't be here.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 18:39:54 GMT -5
I disagree entirely. If the fans were going to go "f*** it let's cheer him for funsies because nothing is changing anyways" that would have happened already and we wouldn't be here. Not that they would cheer him - again, Cena still gets split reactions - but the crowd almost certainly wouldn’t be walking out on his matches.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 17, 2018 18:44:43 GMT -5
I disagree entirely. If the fans were going to go "f*** it let's cheer him for funsies because nothing is changing anyways" that would have happened already and we wouldn't be here. Not that they would cheer him - again, Cena still gets split reactions - but the crowd almost certainly wouldn’t be walking out on his matches. I still 100% disagree. Roman on a Super Cena push beating everyone would just hurry the division between WWE/fans along.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 17, 2018 18:56:24 GMT -5
Probably not, no. But it could vary based on other factors that aren’t just him, like the character work of the face that would oppose him.
As it relates to how he is right now... He doesn’t look very motivated. I don’t know if he’s just burnt out from all of this mess, but there’s something missing.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 17, 2018 19:16:51 GMT -5
Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. Exactly. Him being a "choke artist" isn't why the fans overall soured on him, and him "winning more" isn't what's going to fix anything. I guarantee had Roman won at WM and defended against Joe at Backlash, the fans would still have walked out. Roman not winning isn't the issue. Roman winning TOO much is what got us here. He was handed a title shot straight out of the Shield breakup, and had opportunity after opportunity, was handed accolade after accolade when it was transparently clear he wasn't what the fans wanted and wasn't ready. They took the weakest member of The Shield and pushed him to the moon solely based on how he looks. Then they gave him blue contacts. I don't even know anymore. I've said before if he went full Meta, acknowledged being Vince's "corporate pick" (much like the Rock) and that he was handed everything because he's better than everyone in the back, that would be a good start. and maybe stop spamming Superman Punches 500 times a match. The reason that I say Roman decisively winning more of his feuds and having a lengthy title run would fix a great deal is because it would make him a character in kayfabe who can back up what the announcers constantly say about him. If it’s truly Roman’s yard, why hasn’t he conquered Lesnar and established himself as a great champion yet? Hogan’s and Cena’s characters did just that, and they became great draws for WWE. One consistent thing I always notice in wrestling is when a promoter gets behind a talented enough performer and allows them to look strong- ergo, go all the way with them and make them the ace- then they usually become a success. It happened with Hogan, Savage, Austin, Goldberg and Cena, Misawa, Okada, Tanahashi, they were protected heavily and they had tons of successful title defenses. Even Bryan, who never had a super long title run, looked stronger against his heels than Roman does much of the time. The thing about top faces is that none of them are EVER universally loved. It doesn’t matter how good they are, sometimes fans just want to see another wrestler they like win. Hogan got mixed reactions sometimes, as did Bret at one point, Dusty against Flair, Cena of course, fans being split between Austin and Rock. Okada’s been booed by NJPW crowds plenty of times, and he got a lukewarm reception when he first beat Tanahashi in 2012 for his first title. But unlike what WWE’s done with Roman, New Japan stuck with him. When Baba put the title on Misawa in 1992, he got a two year reign. Not that I’m advocating Roman to get anywhere CLOSE to that, but AJPW didn’t backpedal is my point. I don’t think Reigns’s dilemma is him so much being a “poochie”, because plenty of top aces are going to come off like Poochies if the promotion wants to market them and make them into a box office attraction. Bruno Sammartino had to be the original Poochie. His real issue is that WWE’s been inconsistent with his narrative. At first it seemed like they were going to push him like a badass juggernaut, but after Rollins won at Mania 31, they’ve since tried to slot him in a Bryan-style role of a scrappy underdog. And no one buys it, because he’s too big and too explosive. I truly think them trying to depower Roman has done him more damage than his initial Superman push, because now he just comes off like a character who can’t put away Brock and live up to his hype. On the flip side, I believe that if he had, say, won at Mania 31 and held the title for a while, he would probably still get mixed reactions, but he’d likely also have more vocal supporters because his W/L record would give them something to hang their hats on, essentially. What worked about a lot of Cena’s face-on-face feuds is that in kayfabe, he was unarguably the man- so he could give off that cocky, Christian Laettner aura where fans of any wrestler, face or heel, could root for Cena to be taken down a peg. That’s also the dynamic of many of Okada’s big matches. He said in one interview before fighting Satoshi Kojima that he was going to “slap him around”, and much of that crowd was pro- Kojima. Does that make Cena or Okada failures as babyfaces? No. Maybe they’re not the “pure, underdog faces” that Bryan or Johnny Gargano are, but they still are badass enough characters that they can rally their fanbases to a split, but hot crowd. Sometimes the program doesn’t have to be about “good vs evil”, just two wrestlers who want to be the best. So I’m of the mindset that had WWE kept their pedal on the gas when it came to Roman, he would still have a fair share of haters but he could also play that role of the face champion that everyone of all alignments gun for (and that’s how it should be usually, if they want to make the belts seem like big deals). I don’t think there’s a scenario where you push Roman in a way where he’s loved by all, because modern wrestling fans are just more independent minded in general. But the constant failures on his part and whining have hurt him worse than ever. So face or heel, WWE should have been more consistent with him. Maybe as a Naito style give-no-f***s heel he could show that side too, either way he’s looked too much like a geek lately when the spotlight is on him. Woo that was long. Yeah, those be my ultimate Roman thoughts.
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 17, 2018 19:23:32 GMT -5
They need to focus on getting Reigns over first. That's his real problem. It doesn't matter if he's a face or a heel now. He's just flat out not over, because he's booked like a choker. He needs to start winning more decisively. Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. I think his super booking is a huge part of it, but I agree with Clash in part that they have to make a choice. If he's their top guy, they need to book him much stronger. If you want him to win; have him dominate. No more of booking his big wins like lucky flukes. If they don't want him to be the guy, then get him as far away from the main event as possible. Book him in the midcard. Put him in a tag team for a year or something. He might not be The Guy, but he isn't worthless. He has real talent for use somewhere, but right now they're ruining his chances of being anything at all that the fans will accept.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 19:28:09 GMT -5
No, Vince.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 17, 2018 20:21:14 GMT -5
Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. I think his super booking is a huge part of it, but I agree with Clash in part that they have to make a choice. If he's their top guy, they need to book him much stronger. If you want him to win; have him dominate. No more of booking his big wins like lucky flukes. If they don't want him to be the guy, then get him as far away from the main event as possible. Book him in the midcard. Put him in a tag team for a year or something. He might not be The Guy, but he isn't worthless. He has real talent for use somewhere, but right now they're ruining his chances of being anything at all that the fans will accept. Basically, they need to do their business or get off the pot.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 17, 2018 20:27:51 GMT -5
I think his super booking is a huge part of it, but I agree with Clash in part that they have to make a choice. If he's their top guy, they need to book him much stronger. If you want him to win; have him dominate. No more of booking his big wins like lucky flukes. If they don't want him to be the guy, then get him as far away from the main event as possible. Book him in the midcard. Put him in a tag team for a year or something. He might not be The Guy, but he isn't worthless. He has real talent for use somewhere, but right now they're ruining his chances of being anything at all that the fans will accept. Basically, they need to do their business or get off the pot. Which was basically why the WM34 result was so frustrating. Instead of doing either of those, it was “Just gimme five more minutes/another year”. Now we still have an absentee world champion and Reigns is basically in a zombie state, lumbering along mindlessly waiting for him to come back.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 17, 2018 20:30:21 GMT -5
They need to focus on getting Reigns over first. That's his real problem. It doesn't matter if he's a face or a heel now. He's just flat out not over, because he's booked like a choker. He needs to start winning more decisively. Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. Yeah, him being a choker is not why people are booing him, because Roman isn't a choker. Dude is a grand slam champion, has won the title at mania and main evented 4 years in a row. Roman's problem is that he isn't anywhere near over as much as he should be to have a Hall of Fame career like that. He's been given records, and titles, and accomplishments like crazy... giving him MORE isn't the problem. edit: him losing at Mania 34 wasn't about him getting title... it was that we know this was built up for a year to be the big nail in teh coffin of finally getting Roman cheered... and it failed horribly... and instead of just getting it the f*** over with and moving on to something else... they panicked and now we're stuck in a loop where we may end up at Mania again NEXT YEAR with Roman challenging Brock this time for reals...
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on May 17, 2018 20:34:31 GMT -5
Not that they would cheer him - again, Cena still gets split reactions - but the crowd almost certainly wouldn’t be walking out on his matches. I still 100% disagree. Roman on a Super Cena push beating everyone would just hurry the division between WWE/fans along. The missing link is that before fans turned on Cena, Cena had something the fans got behind which was the rapper gimmick. Fans turned away from Cena when he became the super human and they turn away from the rapping side of things. Reigns NEVER had that as a solo act. The only team Reigns was ever over with the crowd was in the Shield. It's not about going all in on him or whatever the push is, the problem is nothing ever stood out about him to begin with. The guy can't cut a good promo which is a key factor in being THE guy is carry the show. The guy is Solid at best as a wrestler but nothing stands out. His gimmick is WHAT really? That's the issue, I can't buy into a guy who doesn't know who he is as a character. I've been saying it for a while, he needs to find himself like Austin and the Rock did. They came up with a character they felt conformable playing, because it was who they where in away Amped up X10. The best stars in wrestling came from a more natural way.Reigns needs to do that. Turn heel and find himself. Once he does that, fans will start connecting and in the long run IF he as good as they think he is, he come out of that shell and become that star, Rock did it, Austin did it, CENA did it. Cena rapped on a bus and look what it got him. Right now, no matter what they do at this way, he never will no matter who he is against.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 17, 2018 20:34:59 GMT -5
The biggest thing they need to do is stop having commentary kiss his ass so hard.
And they have to realize that suddenly having commentary shit on him nonstop won't help either, because it's going to look like a blatantly transparent attempt to work up pity for him.
The only thing that can salvage Roman is getting him away from the current commentary team.
Which pretty much means he's going to have to go to New Japan, and it's going to have to happen in a way where it's clear that Vince isn't just temporarily sending him there with the full intention of pushing him as The Man (and having Commentary kiss his ass as such) again when he comes back.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 17, 2018 20:38:12 GMT -5
Never before have I agreed with the first part of a post so hard and disagreed with the second part as much as this one. The dude being pushed too hard is what put Roman on this terrible path to begin with. Yeah, him being a choker is not why people are booing him, because Roman isn't a choker. Dude is a grand slam champion, has won the title at mania and main evented 4 years in a row. Roman's problem is that he isn't anywhere near over as much as he should be to have a Hall of Fame career like that. He's been given records, and titles, and accomplishments like crazy... giving him MORE isn't the problem. My idea isn’t so much “giving him more” as it is that I feel WWE needs to either allow Roman to assert himself as the dominant figure he’s portrayed as, or do it with someone else. They don’t want to make Roman a badass, long term champion who can carry Raw? Then they should give that honor to Rollins, Braun or Balor (I’d personally love it if it were Braun, but I’m not booking.) If they do want Roman to look like the Big Dawg, then he should have pinned Lesnar 1-2-3 a long time ago. Whoever they pick to be the ace needs to actually be champion for a period of time. WWE’s idea that someone can be “the guy” without establishing them as a long term champion doesn’t work with most fans. He is a grand slam champion, but my argument isn’t that he’s a weak character. It’s that he often looks too weak in scenarios where a marquee face shouldn’t.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 17, 2018 20:50:29 GMT -5
Yeah, him being a choker is not why people are booing him, because Roman isn't a choker. Dude is a grand slam champion, has won the title at mania and main evented 4 years in a row. Roman's problem is that he isn't anywhere near over as much as he should be to have a Hall of Fame career like that. He's been given records, and titles, and accomplishments like crazy... giving him MORE isn't the problem. My idea isn’t so much “giving him more” as it is that I feel WWE needs to either allow Roman to assert himself as the dominant figure he’s portrayed as, and I think that would require him to actually be champion for a period of time. WWE’s idea that someone can be “the guy” without establishing them as a long term champion doesn’t work with most fans. He is a grand slam champion, but my argument isn’t that he’s a weak character. It’s that he often looks too weak in scenarios where a marquee face shouldn’t. What got us to the dance was Roman steamrolling everyone, that's what started this ball of wax a rollin'. without any kinda character or consistency behind it. Roman Reigns character varies WILDLY with seemingly every appearance. Hogan was the American Hero/douchebag heel in it for himself. Austin was the asskicking everyman The Rock was the most electrifying man in sports entertainment. John Cena is the guy that likes entertaining the crowd but is going to do what he thinks is right CM Punk is the loud mouth malcontent. Daniel Bryan is the underdog who had a Cinderella story to the top of the world. Roman Reigns is... the wacky punster! Wait no... he's the silent ass kicker... no he pranks his opponents... no wait he's a loud mouth malcontent too!... etc. etc. Roman Reigns isn't going to get cheered because right now Roman Reigns isn't anything. Pushing him before deciding on a baseline character for him is what killed him. The Roman Reigns Top Face Big Dawg in the shield-lite gear with the shield entrance music has failed... and there is little to nothing they can do to salvage him. They need to basically start from scratch with him hopefully this time putting in the work they failed to the first time. edit: as for his whole he needs a long title reign... his current combined length of reigns already puts him ahead of people like Ric Flair, Sid, Jeff Hardy, Mick Foley, Batista, Jericho, Ambrose, and the Big Show. Hell his longest reign is longer than 3 of 4 of The Undertaker's reigns with the title, and his second reign (which was more like his first since the original was like a minute long) was longer than HALF of Taker's reign.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 17, 2018 20:56:11 GMT -5
Oof, you quoted me there before I could make that statement more coherent. Sorry.
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Post by Macho Pichu on May 17, 2018 20:57:53 GMT -5
It depends on how he portrays it. I feel like I would stop ignoring him if he did, though. I'd at the very least be interested in his direction, although investment in the character is up to him and creative.
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