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Post by The Barber on May 30, 2018 9:33:31 GMT -5
Heels shouldn't have to be offensive to be good heels, but the problem does boil down to the fact that fans in this day and age cheer anyone who is good at their job, even if that job is being a classic villain in wrestling. Exactly.
If they ever created "Star Wars: The Play" on Broadway, do you think Darth Vader is getting booed? I think not.
If a heel cuts a great promo, then he'll get cheered. The 'booing the heel' gimmick worked when (most) of the fans believed in kayfabe.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 10:30:47 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that there's no absolutely no line too far, AS LONG as the fans get the satisfying payoff of watching the heel get their big comeuppance.
HOWEVER, I feel like the examples of doing a nazi salute or ripping up a fan's pride flag are examples of bad heel work, because of who it's directed at. If you're doing these actions **to the audience members themselves,** they can't fight back, and having a babyface wrestler beat the guy down isn't going to make up for what was perceived as a personal attack, it's just going to drive the audience away.
Say, on the other hand, that a heel beat Darren Young (for example) down, then tore up HIS pride flag. That's the way to do it. Then you get impassioned promos from the babyface about what it means to him, and the audience can get behind it, and see him as a representation for situations they've encountered themselves. The caveat is that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to end an angle like that with the bad guy getting comeuppance that borders on overkill, and a big celebratory moment for the fans.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 30, 2018 11:50:44 GMT -5
Heels shouldn't have to be offensive to be good heels, but the problem does boil down to the fact that fans in this day and age cheer anyone who is good at their job, even if that job is being a classic villain in wrestling. Exactly.
If they ever created "Star Wars: The Play" on Broadway, do you think Darth Vader is getting booed? I think not.
If a heel cuts a great promo, then he'll get cheered. The 'booing the heel' gimmick worked when (most) of the fans believed in kayfabe.
Uh... www.broadway.com/buzz/183367/a-long-time-agothere-was-almost-a-star-wars-musical-listen-to-han-leia-sing/ |
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Post by Reflecto on May 30, 2018 12:32:45 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't agree with this at all. That's not a problem to me. Fans should be able to cheer and boo for whatever faces and heels they want. They paid to be there, so they shouldn't be obligated to respond in a certain way. There's always going to be a face that gets booed and a heel that gets cheered somewhere. It's been occurring in wrestling since the beginning. Sometimes it just can't be helped no matter how good a promotion writes characters. Watch old NWA shows on the Network, and you can hear Flair's fanbase jeering Dusty. Then in that case, I also completely disagree with this. If you aren't willing to accept that boos are a heel wrestlers' cheers, and by booing a heel wrestler then you're actually cheering yourself hoarse for them, then don't come crying when that heel wrestler has to cross the line from "the wrestler is playing a villain" to "the worker behind the wrestler is a complete monster" to MAKE YOU boo them. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on May 31, 2018 7:03:15 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't agree with this at all. That's not a problem to me. Fans should be able to cheer and boo for whatever faces and heels they want. They paid to be there, so they shouldn't be obligated to respond in a certain way. There's always going to be a face that gets booed and a heel that gets cheered somewhere. It's been occurring in wrestling since the beginning. Sometimes it just can't be helped no matter how good a promotion writes characters. Watch old NWA shows on the Network, and you can hear Flair's fanbase jeering Dusty. Then in that case, I also completely disagree with this. If you aren't willing to accept that boos are a heel wrestlers' cheers, and by booing a heel wrestler then you're actually cheering yourself hoarse for them, then don't come crying when that heel wrestler has to cross the line from "the wrestler is playing a villain" to "the worker behind the wrestler is a complete monster" to MAKE YOU boo them. Well, I wouldn’t book my heels as full bore criminals. That wouldn’t be an issue if I ran a company. |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 8:52:12 GMT -5
There are things like the Muhammed Hassan stuff where it's so obviously crossing lines, or Kurt's "I wanna make Jesus tap/I'm not a fan of black people" and you can see right through it. But something like Bret Hart vs. the USA, while it's definitely touchy material, it was completely believable for the story. I would never want to make rules about these things because offensive material in the right hands can be great, though wrestling's track record isn't really strong for this sort of thing. If I had to make any rule it's just that whatever you do should fit the character, the story being told and not be done for the sake of being offensive. The ideal fan response should be booing the character and not the content.
The Cody/Bullet Club storyline and Tomasso Ciampa/Johnny Gargano are perfect examples of doing it right, that you can be a heel without trying to provoke visceral reactions from audiences, but that seems like a really difficult thing to do today. In WWE the babyfaces are generally too boring, and on the indies it's the T-shirt era, it's more beneficial to them to be jack of all trades entertainers to sell merch on the road than to block that income for the sake of being a proper heel, Cody seems like the only anomaly in that regard, he seems to be able to have it both ways. If you have a likeable face, you have a heel who's willing to commit to being an antagonist then I think you're pretty much good, and if the fans aren't playing along with the morality play and are just having a good time with the whole thing maybe that doesn't matter so much anymore today. Times change I guess, but to me wrestling is so much funner as a fan to play along with the storylines than to create a "yay everything" environment.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2018 8:52:22 GMT -5
I've never been much for the idea of the "Well, he's fundamentally right, and has all the good views, but he's really loud, obnoxious, and condescending about it" heel, because that's generally the kind of person that a damn lot of people make excuses for.
Instead of "God damn, what a jackass!", it's "He might be a jackass, but he's OUR jackass!", and the people they're a jackass to get seen as "deserving it".
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on May 31, 2018 9:27:17 GMT -5
There are things like the Muhammed Hassan stuff where it's so obviously crossing lines, or Kurt's "I wanna make Jesus tap/I'm not a fan of black people" and you can see right through it. But something like Bret Hart vs. the USA, while it's definitely touchy material, it was completely believable for the story. I would never want to make rules about these things because offensive material in the right hands can be great, though wrestling's track record isn't really strong for this sort of thing. If I had to make any rule it's just that whatever you do should fit the character, the story being told and not be done for the sake of being offensive. The ideal fan response should be booing the character and not the content. The Cody/Bullet Club storyline and Tomasso Ciampa/Johnny Gargano are perfect examples of doing it right, that you can be a heel without trying to provoke visceral reactions from audiences, but that seems like a really difficult thing to do today. In WWE the babyfaces are generally too boring, and on the indies it's the T-shirt era, it's more beneficial to them to be jack of all trades entertainers to sell merch on the road than to block that income for the sake of being a proper heel, Cody seems like the only anomaly in that regard, he seems to be able to have it both ways. If you have a likeable face, you have a heel who's willing to commit to being an antagonist then I think you're pretty much good, and if the fans aren't playing along with the morality play and are just having a good time with the whole thing maybe that doesn't matter so much anymore today. Times change I guess, but to me wrestling is so much funner as a fan to play along with the storylines than to create a "yay everything" environment. Well yeah, I'm not necessarily on board with a "yay everything" philosophy, because faces and heels are always going to be a crucial part of wrestling. And I don't mind playing along with the storylines either, but I also know that sometimes a performer just connects with people regardless of their character alignment. So I'd rather have a popular face feuding with a popular heel than making my heels so vile to where they might turn off significant portions of my audience. There are ways to write characters as dicks without it coming off as a cheap shock attempt. |
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Post by bootytea on May 31, 2018 10:33:59 GMT -5
It is usually more interesting to me, but that doesn't mean you have to be offensive.
There seems to be this mentality that someone is only a good heel if you like them which doesn't make much sense to me. There shouldn't be boundaries for a heel because they are playing a character.
There's some odd thing about pro wrestling where it is ridiculed for being staged, yet people get so upset when they "push it too far." I've seen so much worse from other shows like Criminal Minds.
The key is whether the writing is good. If you're gonna make someone that despicable, be sure they get their comeuppance or learn to be a better person.
This is coming from someone who isn't really offended by much.
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Post by The Ichi on May 31, 2018 12:23:07 GMT -5
Nope.
The cat's been out of the bag for a long time that wrestling is fake entertainment. It's in the same area as tv shows, and that's fine. It's escapism. People don't watch to have their views insulted.
A heel needs to be one thing and one thing only: entertaining. Which, popular to contrary belief, doesn't mean the viewer can't want them to lose if done right.
Going for genuinely offending viewers achieves nothing in an age where your youngest nephew knows it's not real anymore. All it does is expose the heel as not being good at their role.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on May 31, 2018 12:33:57 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't agree with this at all. That's not a problem to me. Fans should be able to cheer and boo for whatever faces and heels they want. They paid to be there, so they shouldn't be obligated to respond in a certain way. There's always going to be a face that gets booed and a heel that gets cheered somewhere. It's been occurring in wrestling since the beginning. Sometimes it just can't be helped no matter how good a promotion writes characters. Watch old NWA shows on the Network, and you can hear Flair's fanbase jeering Dusty. Then in that case, I also completely disagree with this. If you aren't willing to accept that boos are a heel wrestlers' cheers, and by booing a heel wrestler then you're actually cheering yourself hoarse for them, then don't come crying when that heel wrestler has to cross the line from "the wrestler is playing a villain" to "the worker behind the wrestler is a complete monster" to MAKE YOU boo them. If the choice is between adapting to an audience and learning a way around things or just growing how the business is handled from within to accomodate the loss of kayfabe and different audience tastes, and people making bigoted comments in a desperate bid to try and get people to boo them, then we're better off just shutting the whole business down right now honestly. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on May 31, 2018 12:38:12 GMT -5
Nope. The cat's been out of the bag for a long time that wrestling is fake entertainment. It's in the same area as tv shows, and that's fine. It's escapism. People don't watch to have their views insulted. A heel needs to be one thing and one thing only: entertaining. Which, popular to contrary belief, doesn't mean the viewer can't want them to lose if done right. Going for genuinely offending viewers achieves nothing in an age where your youngest nephew knows it's not real anymore. All it does is expose the heel as not being good at their role. Also, compared to a WWE audience, most indie crowds genuinely do want to boo people. They WANT that escapism and if you're not able to do it with entrances, you do it when the match starts. It's not just about solidifying your story, it's about adapting the story to what happens around you. It's an underrated part of wrestling as an artform. |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 13:10:51 GMT -5
Pentagon Dark is a great example of things being said about adapting etc.
Pentagon is relentlessly cheered like a god in the temple but he is also a vile heel now in alot of other companies the easy thing would be to turn him babyface because the audience loves him but LU chose to instead double down on him being a sick bastard by having him break an innocent womans arm and then be a cheating scummy bastard by worming his way to the world title and ridding the temple of the top babyface.
But like they have been doing with him he plays on the audiences moral dilema ...you know he is an evil bastard and you love him but you also realize he needs his comuppance and everytime he gets it you feel great even if you love everything about him.
But the story and just handling of his character has been so good that the audience buys in....no one expected when the Black Lotus Triad and Azteca broke both his arms that the crowd would be chanting BREAK HIS ARM...LU succeeded where alot of other companies would fail they got the audience to buy in and boo the guy they cherish the most and then they did it again when they needed to when he broke brendas arm and the audience booed him.
It is facinating to me especially with all the comments now about having the heel adapt because LU with Pentagon is always finding a way to get him booed but never falling into that oh lets just offend everyone trope and call it a day.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2018 13:30:03 GMT -5
Another thing I'm going to posit here :
Things that would be considered absolutely offensive if they were done in WWE will likely not be seen as being as offensive in other promotions (except possibly ROH, for reasons we really can't get into here).
If a WWE heel broke a woman's arm, there'd be some outcry of "Vince had this done because he's a misogynist and advocates for man-on-woman violence and abuse!"
Vince books solely for his own entertainment, so any heinous act is going to be seen as reflecting his own (perceived) biases and prejudices.
It's a lot easier to give other promotions the benefit of the doubt, there.
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Post by jimmyjames on Jun 1, 2018 3:37:21 GMT -5
Mark Henry was one of the best heel champs in recent memory and he wsn't offensive.
I think a lot, not all of it is laziness. It's a lot easier to get cheap heat by being offensive than to take time and work on something that'll make you a hated heel without being offensive.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 14:42:18 GMT -5
I can watch our local Indy group and, within 30 seconds of their entrance, know what they are. Asshole heel, vain/God's gift heel, big hoss bad-ass heel, smart/intelligent/"above the fans' heads" heel, big mouth heel, heel because they have a slimy manager.
Not one curse word, not one shoot comment. Just go out there and piss me off.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jun 3, 2018 17:13:43 GMT -5
I've never been much for the idea of the "Well, he's fundamentally right, and has all the good views, but he's really loud, obnoxious, and condescending about it" heel, because that's generally the kind of person that a damn lot of people make excuses for. Instead of "God damn, what a jackass!", it's "He might be a jackass, but he's OUR jackass!", and the people they're a jackass to get seen as "deserving it". Yeah like, I didn't really understand why we were supposed to boo CM Punk for being mad about Jeff Hardy being an unreliable junky when, Well, Jeff Hardy WAS an unreliable junky. |
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 3, 2018 17:28:12 GMT -5
I've never been much for the idea of the "Well, he's fundamentally right, and has all the good views, but he's really loud, obnoxious, and condescending about it" heel, because that's generally the kind of person that a damn lot of people make excuses for. Instead of "God damn, what a jackass!", it's "He might be a jackass, but he's OUR jackass!", and the people they're a jackass to get seen as "deserving it". Yeah like, I didn't really understand why we were supposed to boo CM Punk for being mad about Jeff Hardy being an unreliable junky when, Well, Jeff Hardy WAS an unreliable junky. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that that type of character should be cheered and looked up to. I'm saying that they shouldn't even write that type of character to begin with. |
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Post by malloc on Jun 5, 2018 11:37:27 GMT -5
Regal always looked like he was offended by everyone else
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jun 6, 2018 19:37:24 GMT -5
Heels have to be offensive on some level. To say otherwise suggests that they have some redeeming qualities. You can say “people know wrestling is fake”, but people know Harry Potter isn’t real either. And Voldemort and his Death Eaters have no redeeming qualities whatsoever and are offensive on every level.
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