Big Bad Brad
Wade Wilson
Big Bad Brad
Tournament Master
Posts: 27,410
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Post by Big Bad Brad on Nov 14, 2018 13:26:05 GMT -5
Town, what do we make of the Fiend Gus Richlen's multiple assertions that Big Bad Brad is of our number? Well I believe I should be proven town after all I was the last vote on Gus. I have been for mafia voting mafia in the past but not when its the last vote to get the Godfather lynched if I was mafia and laid the final vote to lynch the Godfather lynched I would be the dumbest mafia member ever. I think Gus was nice to me so when I died and flip town he could of been like told you so. I'm surprised I didn't die last night since I'm the one responsible for lynching the Godfather. I didn't post much last day phase because I'm going through some personal stuff which I talked about in another topic. Also @dante should be proven town if anybody suspects him of being mafia after Gus was going after him hard I will suspect that person of being mafia.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 13:40:25 GMT -5
Town, what do we make of the Fiend Gus Richlen's multiple assertions that Big Bad Brad is of our number? Well I believe I should be proven town after all I was the last vote on Gus. I have been for mafia voting mafia in the past but not when its the last vote to get the Godfather lynched if I was mafia and laid the final vote to lynch the Godfather lynched I would be the dumbest mafia member ever. I think Gus was nice to me so when I died and flip town he could of been like told you so. I'm surprised I didn't die last night since I'm the one responsible for lynching the Godfather. I didn't post much last day phase because I'm going through some personal stuff which I talked about in another topic. Also @dante should be proven town if anybody suspects him of being mafia after Gus was going after him hard I will suspect that person of being mafia. Not necessarily, good sir. One could set up a stratagem wherein the Godfather, pursued hound-like by Town for two days, sacrifices himself so the rest of Mafia could have an alibi for the remainder of our tenure in this Abyss. Gus's reaction on being pursued was of such dramatic pitch that it may have been an attempt at distraction. Much like Town, Mafia only needs one survivor to win. That said, that is not necessarily what has happened and daylight lingers yet. Where should we direct our attention this Day, good sir?
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Post by Skull0mancer on Nov 14, 2018 19:50:45 GMT -5
It's Joker, you guys. However, with the two people going right after Joker, it DOES raise a tad bit of suspicion with me. Either it's coincidence or scum is following scum's lead. So, on that basis, FOS: Old School DaimeGus's first mention of Joker. He says he finds it suspicious that KEVIN and Daime both expressed distrust of Joker, then proceeds to push back by casting shade on both of them. Why would Scum-Gus try to take the heat off of Joker in this way if Joker was Town as well? It looks like Scum subtly trying to get their partner out of trouble. Did you read my explanation in this post? If so, do you think my logic is flawed? Do you think that early voting and/or frequent vote changes are scummy? If so, why? I think straight up voting as your very first post of the game, at someone who hadn't even started was very gung ho. You painted a target on yourself instantly by doing that (whether you wanted to or not). My conclusion of this move is either you are scum and are just trying to sow seeds of doubt straight away or you are some sort of third party who wants to be lynched early by the town. I can't see why a Town member would do this as all the attention goes on you. Be it from Town looking for a lynch or for scum looking at which potential townies to kill off, heck they might keep you on for the confusion/dithering it can cause. I already addressed this post here, but to recap, Joker's argument here is that me drawing attention to myself is a Scum characteristic because it will make people look at me and that...sows seeds of doubt and confusion...somehow? It's an incredibly bizarre and counter-intuitive argument, and when I challenged Joker to explain his logic, the only explanation he could muster is this: It's more a general hunch/feeling based on how you are wording responses to all the other players than a direct quote. A "general hunch/feeling," huh? That's not something that can be explained. What a convenient way to make an accusation and follow it up by hand-waving away any need to explain it.
My own read is that one of the very vocal players is scum and is working with one of the quiet ones, just trying to make a decision. This observation is based on nothing of substance, and I am led to believe that Joker made it just to throw us off. If this observation is false, that means that our Scum duo (again, I'm operating under the assumption that we're dealing with a two-man team based on the size of the game) is comprised of either two active players or two lurkers. Gus was pretty active, so that would mean that his partner is active too. Joker fits the bill. I was trying to covey my reasoning on why being loud/attention grabbing is not the best plan, personally I think you lean more to scum or third Party at the moment because you were so bold right from the start. And, again, Joker asserts that being the center of attention is scummy somehow while offering no explanation whatsoever for how that makes any sense. It's clear that he has decided to call me scummy and then try to find pieces of evidence to back up that assertion. That is not a Town mindset. Town looks at evidence and reaches a conclusion based on what they observe. Joker is doing it the other way around because he is not approaching this from a Town mindset. I mentioned here that I expected Scum to be more likely to buddy me in this game. I can very realistically see Joker reading that post and thinking that he should do the exact opposite by attacking me head-on. The only problem is that he forgot that his argument has to actually make logical sense. Otherwise it just looks forced and unnatural. My own Town read at the moment is: Brad, BT Squadron and maybe Daime. I am leaning scum/tp towards OtherKevin & Skull and one of the quiet lurkers ( jagilki , Brainbustaaah! , lodirulz .) Here we see Joker introducing the possibility of a third-party when we've been given no reason to believe that that's the case. Scum trying to muddy the waters, perhaps?
So going off that: Vote:TOK Is the Target Demo Because apart from defending himself 'four times' from my very minor suspicion has not added anything. Joker starts the wagon on KEVIN because he "has not added anything." The same could have been said of half the player list at this point in the game. His reasons for voting KEVIN are weak, but this post was made right after I voted for Gus and started to get that wagon rolling, so Joker likely thought that he needed to get a counter-wagon going to take the heat off of his partner.
FOS:skull0mancerBecause of the reasons above. Again, this was Joker's first post after I voted for Gus. Classic case of trying to discredit a player who suspects your partner to make it less likely for the other players to listen to that person. Now that we know what Gus's alignment was, that would make sense, yes? Your "reasons" amount to an absurd level of mental gymnastics to make my intentions seem nefarious as well as a slew of baseless accusations based on a "general hunch/feeling" that you conveniently can't explain. It sounds like you've already reached a conclusion and are trying to find (or force, as the case may be) reasons to reinforce that conclusion. Town does it the other way around, you know. Tell me -- why are you waiting until now to bring this up? This started with you expressing displeasure over a vote I cast on page 1 a week ago. Did you not think to say anything about it until now? I think the timing feels a little odd, to be honest. Only after I put the squeeze on Gus do you show up to discredit me. When Gus flips Scum, you'll be the next person I look at. Remember this? It still applies. Joker didn't have anything substantial to say for almost the entirety of Day 1, but once I start putting pressure on Gus, that's when Joker decides that he has a problem with the way I played and voted at the very beginning of the game. Why did he wait that long to say something? In theory one of the lynchers of OtherKevin must be scum so going to have a think and re-read of posts to see if there are any clues. Another attempt at deception. Joker asserts that only one person on KEVIN's lynch wagon is Scum. Gus and Joker were both on that wagon, so when Gus flips Scum, this post is a subtle attempt to tell players to look elsewhere for the other Scum player. I know I am not mafia, BT is feeling like Town to me, I think the Gus/Diame dynamic is two townies going at each other personally (so would be interested on there take of others). Which leaves Brad and Jagiliki. I haven't heard too much from the latter so let's start there. Opinions everyone? In this post, Joker explicitly says that Gus is Town. And yet... Ok after following the latest discussion I am going to vote. One way or another this will solve some mysteries. Vote: Gus +MileenaIf this rolls up town then Skull is getting my vote next time, but I can’t vote for him today as someone who got Kevin must be mafia. Well, that was certainly a fast change of heart. Looks more like Scum throwing his doomed partner under the bus for Town cred. Yes we got the Godfather!! I have played enough games to recognize false bravado when I see it. This is false bravado. Your enthusiasm is fake.
Damn we lost Bear.Meat not good. On the plus side, no role so a minor blessing perhaps? This looks like a slip-up. Bear Meat's death appears to have been a Janitor kill -- hence why his role and alignment were not revealed. In my experience, the most common function of a Janitor is that they perform the kill and learn the role and alignment of the dead player, but this information does not become public knowledge. Joker claims that Bear Meat had "no role," which is not something that the rest of us know. Janitor-Joker killing a Vanilla Bear Meat and accidentally revealing that he knows this information makes perfect sense in this situation. Joker also cannot argue that the lack of a role/alignment reveal caused him to assume that Bear Meat was Vanilla because we've already seen a Town flip, and anyone with working eyes would see that this one is different.
If you had followed this up with any sort of insight, analysis, or conclusions, I would not have found this too unusual. However, the fact that you just threw it up there with nothing to accompany it makes it look like you're just trying to appear busy without actually contributing anything substantial.
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Post by Skull0mancer on Nov 14, 2018 19:51:41 GMT -5
Vote: 'Chelnov' Joker If anyone has a more convincing argument for who they think is Scum, I'm all ears.
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Post by Skull0mancer on Nov 14, 2018 20:06:02 GMT -5
I know I am not mafia, BT is feeling like Town to me, I think the Gus/Diame dynamic is two townies going at each other personally (so would be interested on there take of others). Which leaves Brad and Jagiliki. I haven't heard too much from the latter so let's start there. Opinions everyone? In this post, Joker explicitly says that Gus is Town. And yet... Ok after following the latest discussion I am going to vote. One way or another this will solve some mysteries. Vote: Gus +MileenaIf this rolls up town then Skull is getting my vote next time, but I can’t vote for him today as someone who got Kevin must be mafia. Well, that was certainly a fast change of heart. Looks more like Scum throwing his doomed partner under the bus for Town cred. Oh, and I forgot to mention something important about this: Joker was still Scum-reading me at this point. If Joker legitimately thought I was Scum at this point in the game, why would he so readily listen to my case on Gus -- a player he had explicitly said was Town just a few posts prior -- and move his vote there?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 20:57:57 GMT -5
Vote: 'Chelnov' Joker This gentleman appears enamored with the past time of list-making while not necessarily commenting on those lists himself. A classic strategy of our enemies. Moreover, our Harlequin had scarce interaction with the Moriority-esque Gus Richlen, denying his guilt until the gallow's pole could no longer be avoided.
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,542
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Nov 15, 2018 0:20:48 GMT -5
Hmm.
Well, I don’t entirely believe that Gus was sacrificing himself, I’ve played with him before, he’s just like that.
Skull makes a very convincing case, and he was right about Gus, but I plan on waiting to vote at least until Joker has a chance to present a defense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 7:48:26 GMT -5
Not to take heat off Joker, I have skimmed some of it. I want to hear from lodirulzWhy has he been so quiet? Again, I will cast my vote and explain when I need to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 7:51:33 GMT -5
I'm not claiming lodirulz is suspicious or anything. If you all recall, I made a whack theory on Joker on day 2. All I am doing is pressing Lodi to talk.
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Post by Joker on Nov 15, 2018 9:35:34 GMT -5
I knew Skull0mancer would be straight after me as soon as the Day 3 post was made. Let's go through all the Skull points one by one then. 1. I am Town, I am actively helping the town by providing information on voting results and although I was wrong on Kevin I am very happy we got rid of Mafia in the last phase. 2. Clearly Gus was attempting to sow discord amongst the players (Daime, Kevin, Myself) to throw us all off the fact he was scum. 3. I explained this already. When playing as Mafia a good way of making yourself look like a town member is asking lots of questions and making plenty of accusations, generally being conversational/aggressive to hide the fact at night they will kill someone off. 4. It was day 1, what exactly are you expecting a player to go off apart from hope or a hunch. 5. A quiet one and a loud one, is a simple tactic in Mafia games. Gus was the loud one, by that logic one of the quiter players should be Mafia. (Looking at the two players who have not voted at all here.) 6. Is hiding in plain sight (being loud) a valid tactic a mafia member might use? To me it is. Whether you agree with me on this is another matter. 7. Still day one at this point not a lot to go on but gave my opinion on town/mafia members. I still think we have a TP, yet to play a mafia game without one so that is why I keep bringing it up. I have been given no reason to believe we don't have a TP. 8. This was also my first post after you decided to quote multiple remarks I had made. At this point I had no idea Gus was Godfather so I made a choice on who I suspected. Unfortunately I was wrong. 9. Am I not allowed to go back re-read some statements and then challenge players even if it was from a week ago? Everyone is a ? and at that point I found your very wordy/quoting style to be something to dig into. 10. No it isn't I am merely stating the facts that one of the OtherKevin player votes was scum and I was going to go back and re-read posts, there could quite possibly be two or three voters in there. 11. Yes I was reading Gus as town at this point. 12. 4 days is a quick change of heart? But anyway in a post before my saying Gus is town I said: Thus my conclusion on that was he and Diame were town at the time. I would like to draw your attention to the player who was killed in the night. I am thinking of something else... why did no one follow up on the Gus vote? Was it because he was scum, and other scum didn't want to pile up? So when OTHERKEVIN train started, they piled up on there instead? And who piled up on OTHERKEVIN? Gus, of course. As well as Jagilki & Brad. Those three are the ones with my attention this day phase. This got my attention and after saying I would mull it over, it resulted in my opinion changing and casting my vote on Gus. 13. We got the godfather and me celebrating is a reason to vote for me? Now who is reaching for evidence? 14. I genuinely do not know what a Janitor role is, had to look it up with Produceman's guide. That explains the lack of info then. 15. I give the full list of voting results for us to look over in a handy post so people don't have to dig through 12 page and to give something for quieter players to talk about and you call it unsubstantial As a final point, if I am lynched Town loses another member. This is a fact. ----------- Hopefully that all makes sense in regard to Skull's big quote of me post. Any questions go for it. ----------- Going by my list, my number one suspect at the moment is FOS:@jagiliki. As Jag helped lynch Kevin but not Gus. Also @irontyger that was rather quick of you to jump on the lynch me bandwagon?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 18:56:38 GMT -5
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No Longer a Produceman
Dennis Stamp
Will Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse
Evolving into Geckoman
Posts: 4,412
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Post by No Longer a Produceman on Nov 16, 2018 20:55:47 GMT -5
I’ll look into getting a replacement. If I can’t find one in a suitable amount of time I will be forced to modkill the role. So if anyone knows someone willing to take over please let me know ASAP.
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Post by Skull0mancer on Nov 16, 2018 21:52:44 GMT -5
2. Clearly Gus was attempting to sow discord amongst the players (Daime, Kevin, Myself) to throw us all off the fact he was scum. It was a subtle defense of you. Why would Gus be defending you, specifically, at that point int he game?
3. I explained this already. When playing as Mafia a good way of making yourself look like a town member is asking lots of questions and making plenty of accusations, generally being conversational/aggressive to hide the fact at night they will kill someone off. Yes, you already explained it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the explanation makes sense. Asking lots of questions, making plenty of accusations, and being controversial/aggressive is something that good Town players do too, you know. Are you an experienced enough Mafia player to be able to tell the difference between Town aggression and Scum aggression?
4. It was day 1, what exactly are you expecting a player to go off apart from hope or a hunch. I dunno, I did a pretty good job of nailing Scum-Gus on Day 1, don't you think? You can get more than just hunches on Day 1. Justifying a read on a player by saying that it's just a hunch gives you an easy way to avoid having to explain that read in detail. You saw what happened to Gus when he was forced to explain a read in detail, right? He couldn't do it and crumbled. By saying, "Oh, it's just a hunch," you can prevent the same thing from happening to you.
7. Still day one at this point not a lot to go on but gave my opinion on town/mafia members. I still think we have a TP, yet to play a mafia game without one so that is why I keep bringing it up. I have been given no reason to believe we don't have a TP. Um, the number of kills, maybe? If there was a Mafia team and a Serial Killer, then you're arguing that both of their kills were blocked on Night 1 and one of their kills was blocked on Night 2. That's a hell of a lot of blocked kills. I think you're vastly overestimating how easy it is to block even one kill in a Mafia game, let alone three kills in two nights. And if you're talking about other third parties like Survivors or Jesters or whatever, then why are you even worried about them? Let them do their own thing and they'll sort themselves out eventually. Town doesn't need to worry about roles like that unless they're actively trying to hinder the Town players from fulfilling their win condition. Town also shouldn't be worried about Serial Killers in the early game since their only focus should be on catching Scum. You know who does have to worry about Serial Killers, though? The Mafia team. That's because the Serial Killer can kill them, so getting rid of the SK early is a huge boon for the Scum team. It's common for newer Scum players to try to hunt for Serial Killers for precisely this reason, and the fact that you continue to bring up the possibility of third parties makes it look like that's what you're doing too. Specifically hunting for a Serial Killer is a Scum trait.
8. This was also my first post after you decided to quote multiple remarks I had made. At this point I had no idea Gus was Godfather so I made a choice on who I suspected. Unfortunately I was wrong. What does Gus being a Godfather have to do with anything?
9. Am I not allowed to go back re-read some statements and then challenge players even if it was from a week ago? Everyone is a ? and at that point I found your very wordy/quoting style to be something to dig into. Sure, but why didn't you say anything about my early vote when I made it? If it bothered you that much, I have a hard time believing that you just skimmed over it the first time and then came back to it upon a re-read.
11. Yes I was reading Gus as town at this point. 12. 4 days is a quick change of heart? Oh, come on, you're just being pedantic here. It was short in terms of post count, not real-life time. Yes, it was four days, but between this post and this post, you didn't show any indication that you had changed your mind about Gus being Town. But anyway in a post before my saying Gus is town I said: Thus my conclusion on that was he and Diame were town at the time. I would like to draw your attention to the player who was killed in the night. I am thinking of something else... why did no one follow up on the Gus vote? Was it because he was scum, and other scum didn't want to pile up? So when OTHERKEVIN train started, they piled up on there instead? And who piled up on OTHERKEVIN? Gus, of course. As well as Jagilki & Brad. Those three are the ones with my attention this day phase. This got my attention and after saying I would mull it over, it resulted in my opinion changing and casting my vote on Gus. Okay, I may have misread that post. I thought you were saying that you would mull over the possibility of Jagilki and Brad being Scum for voting for KEVIN instead of Gus, not that you would mull over the possibility of Gus being Scum leading a counter-wagon. If so, my mistake. 13. We got the godfather and me celebrating is a reason to vote for me? Now who is reaching for evidence? I'm not reaching. It's a common Scum tactic to feign excitement over a partner's elimination at the start of the next day phase. I've seen it enough times to consider it a Scum tell. No, it's not the strongest piece of evidence pointing me to the conclusion that you're Gus's partner (it's supplemental at best), but it's significant enough to be worth mentioning, I believe.
14. I genuinely do not know what a Janitor role is, had to look it up with Produceman's guide. That explains the lack of info then. Did you not notice that Bear Meat's flip was different from KEVIN's flip?
15. I give the full list of voting results for us to look over in a handy post so people don't have to dig through 12 page and to give something for quieter players to talk about and you call it unsubstantial Again, I would not have had an issue with it if you had included any sort of opinion or analysis of the vote counts in question. If you had, then that information would have been useful. I'm speaking from personal experience on this one. The very first time I had to play as Scum in a game of Mafia, I started Day 4 by posting the votes on all the end-of-day wagons from the first three game days, but I neglected to include any sort of opinion or insight into why I was doing it. One of the other players called me out on it immediately and said, "You're just doing this to try to appear useful." And you know what? He was right. That's exactly what I was doing. And that's exactly what it looks like you're doing too.
As a final point, if I am lynched Town loses another member. This is a fact. Anybody can say this. If you truly are Town, you have to prove it with your actions, not your words.
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Post by Skull0mancer on Nov 17, 2018 13:12:34 GMT -5
I move for lodirulz to be replaced. After checking his file, he hasn't posted at all since November 9th. If I'm right about a two-man Mafia team, I think this exonerates lodirulz (or whoever ends up replacing him). He couldn't have killed Bear Meat if his last visit to the site was before Night 2 started.
If we get another Scum flip and the game doesn't end, then ignore this post.
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,542
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Nov 17, 2018 15:14:01 GMT -5
Question for Joker.
Let us assume for one moment that you are town.
Are you under the impression that Skull is scum, or town who is barking up the wrong tree?
The concern is, it is entirely possible both of you are town, and if we decide to lynch one of you and you flip town, the concern is that we will unfairly assume the other is scum.
We already have a case against you from Skull, so tell us as best you can your read on Skull.
Also, we cannot make any assumptions about lodi’s guilt or innocence based on his absence.
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Post by Skull0mancer on Nov 17, 2018 22:49:19 GMT -5
I think my interactions with Gus should be enough evidence to show that I'm Town. If anyone honestly thinks that Gus and I are on the same team, I am both flattered that you think my Scum game is this good and incredulous that you think I would be so ruthless to my partner. Also, we cannot make any assumptions about lodi’s guilt or innocence based on his absence. Sure we can. If there's only one Scum player left and they weren't online at all during Night 2, then how did Bear Meat die? I will not entertain any response that involves extra kills. This game is too small for extra kills to be worth consideration.
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,542
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Nov 17, 2018 22:57:08 GMT -5
I think my interactions with Gus should be enough evidence to show that I'm Town. If anyone honestly thinks that Gus and I are on the same team, I am both flattered that you think my Scum game is this good and incredulous that you think I would be so ruthless to my partner. Also, we cannot make any assumptions about lodi’s guilt or innocence based on his absence. Sure we can. If there's only one Scum player left and they weren't online at all during Night 2, then how did Bear Meat die? I will not entertain any response that involves extra kills. This game is too small for extra kills to be worth consideration. Do we know there’s only one scum? If we know that to be true, then you are correct. If we don’t, and if there are two or more, then Lodi’s absence means nothing, the other scum could have called it in. What evidence do we have that there is only one scum left? As for the Gus thing, I have been The Godfather before and I have ordered my partners to throw me under the bus to paint them as town, and it worked.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 23:16:14 GMT -5
I think my interactions with Gus should be enough evidence to show that I'm Town. If anyone honestly thinks that Gus and I are on the same team, I am both flattered that you think my Scum game is this good and incredulous that you think I would be so ruthless to my partner. Sure we can. If there's only one Scum player left and they weren't online at all during Night 2, then how did Bear Meat die? I will not entertain any response that involves extra kills. This game is too small for extra kills to be worth consideration. Do we know there’s only one scum? If we know that to be true, then you are correct. If we don’t, and if there are two or more, then Lodi’s absence means nothing, the other scum could have called it in. What evidence do we have that there is only one scum left? As for the Gus thing, I have been The Godfather before and I have ordered my partners to throw me under the bus to paint them as town, and it worked. My suspicions linger on the Good Sir Big Bad Brad. The fellow has contributed little of substance to Town's inquiry into the night, was accused of a possible call to arms of the constable and other upstanding citizens of note among us, and was declared a member of the saint's panoply by the Godfather. The last point may have been subterfuge on Monsieur Richlen's part but I feel it bears consideration.
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Post by Joker on Nov 18, 2018 5:49:34 GMT -5
Question for Joker. Let us assume for one moment that you are town. Are you under the impression that Skull is scum, or town who is barking up the wrong tree? The concern is, it is entirely possible both of you are town, and if we decide to lynch one of you and you flip town, the concern is that we will unfairly assume the other is scum. We already have a case against you from Skull, so tell us as best you can your read on Skull. Also, we cannot make any assumptions about lodi’s guilt or innocence based on his absence. I strongly believe Skull to be Town. Although we clash on styles of play it has been effective in his actions outing Gus. His analysis of all my posts to try and find something is not the way a scum player would play in my opinion. If he is anything else I would be very surprised. If I had to choose who I suspect the most it would be jagilki purely based on voting with him helping to lynch Kev but not Gus? vote: jagilkiIf town would prefer to target another with good/better reason or there is new damning info, then I will drop this.
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No Longer a Produceman
Dennis Stamp
Will Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse
Evolving into Geckoman
Posts: 4,412
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Post by No Longer a Produceman on Nov 18, 2018 13:47:59 GMT -5
Attention: Due to inactivity and being unable to find a replacement, lodirulz will be modkilled. Write up will be sometime later today.
Day Phase will resume as scheduled
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