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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 27, 2018 6:31:07 GMT -5
To me, it’s a problem with such an easy solution. If they want these babyfaces to actually get over, and be the stars they want, WWE needs to bite the bullet and actually have them win matches and look good. Have them beat heel midcarders decisively, have them stand tall in most segments, have them murder jobbers, give them the last word in promos.
I think there’s a fear amongst not just WWE’s writers now, but a lot of fans and people in the business- especially because there’s more overlapping between fans and people in the industry than ever today- have a fear of going all in with a babyface push because it occasionally results in fan backlash. Unfortunately, sometimes I think promoters need to just take that risk anyway, and try to avoid having some of this top talent eat so much dirt week in and week out.
Many fans, despite WWE trying to write it like a scripted TV drama (which I feel is a primary source for all of the recent “heat”, they think it’s compelling drama) are still watching this show within the context of a combat sport. When the faces are struggling against the midcard heels every week, I think WWE’s idea is that they come off as “sympathetic”, but that’s not how a lot of casual fans see it. They take those losses as meaning the face can’t get the job done.
So I feel the solution to make a new ace superstar of this pack is to pick someone charismatic and skilled enough, and basically put them in “No-Lose Zones” for at least a few months. Here, I should mention I found one comment in a thread talking about how Raw can’t seem to find a balance between having the heels look too overpowered, and an invincible top face that always wins their feud who some crowds might boo. So wrestling bookers should look for a perfect “balance”, right?
Wrong. IMO, this isn’t an issue where both extremes are equally bad. I believe it’s a far better problem to deal with an Okada, Cena or Goldberg-style superface who a portion of fans want to see lose but is still generating a lot of money for the company, than what Raw’s currently going through. If you want a new star, you have to book them like one, and that means some fan’s favorite midcarder is going to take some pins. Goldberg never would have become a star in WCW had they applied WWE’s 2003 approach to the character, or the way they booked Roman’s face run. Maybe SuperCena got excessive at some points, but he wouldn’t have been such a major success for WWE were he not protected so hard.
No matter what, there’s going to be someone disappointed in the outcome of every match in wrestling history. I feel the best approach is, while not necessarily never having the potential top face look weak, at least have them win most of their PPV and TV matches, space out their heel beat downs. Fans like to see winners, it’s why Lesnar is such a draw with his Mike Tyson aura.
People point to Bryan’s journey to the main event of Mania 30 as this perfect story, and I guess as a template for a perfect face rise, but- and he got a rapid push by WWE standards anyway- he was over enough to be world champion in 2012. Were I booking Daniel Bryan, I might have had him win the WWE title one year earlier, and I would have let him run roughshod for a while. He would beat midcarders, he would become the new “establishment star”, and I believe he’d be even bigger than he is now.
When I look at the history of wrestling, and how stars were made by promotions, I’m not convinced that good wrestling booking is exactly rocket science. Some of the ways in which top stars are/were protected just looks more and more to me like common sense.
The point is, I think RAW needs its next face men’s champion to be a Superman, and I was fine with Ronda fighting off the pain from Charlotte’s kendo shots. It’s far, faaaar better to have a clear-cut top guy/top girl who some fans rag on, than this miasma of heatless heat segments and faces that the fans don’t believe in. One issue is much worse for business.
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Post by héad.casé on Nov 27, 2018 6:48:07 GMT -5
I don’t mind the heels getting heat, because I believe the comeuppance is definitely coming in the case of Corbin. Once Strowman is back and takes Corbin out, there’s no more Bliss in charge of the Wonens Division, no more restarting matches when the babyface has won it, I just personally think the heels comeuppance is all gonna come at once, and it’ll all start with Corbin’s downfall.
But the heels have to get their heat or Corbin’s downfall means nothing when it happens.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 27, 2018 7:06:18 GMT -5
I don’t mind the heels getting heat, because I believe the comeuppance is definitely coming in the case of Corbin. Once Strowman is back and takes Corbin out, there’s no more Bliss in charge of the Wonens Division, no more restarting matches when the babyface has won it, I just personally think the heels comeuppance is all gonna come at once, and it’ll all start with Corbin’s downfall. But the heels have to get their heat or Corbin’s downfall means nothing when it happens. I’m fine with Corbin getting heat in the service of Braun eventually killing him. But right now Raw is in this ongoing funk where the heel champion is hardly around, the one top face who could best him is out with illness, Dean turned heel and is invoking said illness for heat, and midcard faces (Balor, Natalya) looking like scrubs against the heels more often not. Right now I think more face power and assertiveness is what they need, because the show feels very...I dunno, bleak, lately. |
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 27, 2018 7:10:50 GMT -5
I don’t mind the heels getting heat, because I believe the comeuppance is definitely coming in the case of Corbin. Once Strowman is back and takes Corbin out, there’s no more Bliss in charge of the Wonens Division, no more restarting matches when the babyface has won it, I just personally think the heels comeuppance is all gonna come at once, and it’ll all start with Corbin’s downfall. But the heels have to get their heat or Corbin’s downfall means nothing when it happens. I’m fine with Corbin getting heat in the service of Braun eventually killing him. But right now Raw is in this ongoing funk where the heel champion is hardly around, the one top face who could best him is out with illness, Dean turned heel and is invoking said illness for heat, and midcard faces (Balor, Natalya) looking like scrubs against the heels more often not. Right now I think more face power and assertiveness is what they need, because the show feels very...I dunno, bleak, lately. Yeah, it's kinda hard to get invested when you know it's going to be nothing but faces being pummeled. But you know what's really bleak? The comeuppance will be awesome and will last about a month before there's a new heel big bad authority figure and we're doing this same shit again going into 'Mania season |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 7:14:41 GMT -5
I don’t mind the heels getting heat, because I believe the comeuppance is definitely coming in the case of Corbin. Once Strowman is back and takes Corbin out, there’s no more Bliss in charge of the Wonens Division, no more restarting matches when the babyface has won it, I just personally think the heels comeuppance is all gonna come at once, and it’ll all start with Corbin’s downfall. But the heels have to get their heat or Corbin’s downfall means nothing when it happens. I’m fine with Corbin getting heat in the service of Braun eventually killing him. But right now Raw is in this ongoing funk where the heel champion is hardly around, the one top face who could best him is out with illness, Dean turned heel and is invoking said illness for heat, and midcard faces (Balor, Natalya) looking like scrubs against the heels more often not. Right now I think more face power and assertiveness is what they need, because the show feels very...I dunno, bleak, lately. I don’t mind it in the case of Natalya as The Riott Squad need some serious build up to make them look like a threat. I do agree on your other points. It feels rather depressing seeing so many dudes getting beaten and bitched around. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 27, 2018 7:32:21 GMT -5
I’m fine with Corbin getting heat in the service of Braun eventually killing him. But right now Raw is in this ongoing funk where the heel champion is hardly around, the one top face who could best him is out with illness, Dean turned heel and is invoking said illness for heat, and midcard faces (Balor, Natalya) looking like scrubs against the heels more often not. Right now I think more face power and assertiveness is what they need, because the show feels very...I dunno, bleak, lately. I don’t mind it in the case of Natalya as The Riott Squad need some serious build up to make them look like a threat. I do agree on your other points. It feels rather depressing seeing so many dudes getting beaten and bitched around. Eh, I’ve always been a Natalya fan, but I think her and Riott Squad could both benefit from getting stronger off being fed jobbers. That’s one other thing I think could help Raw’s faces look stronger, killing non-descript workers we’re not supposed to care about. I think we could have more over face and heel midcarders if they used local people more often. (Not that the show can be all squashes now, but those squashes helped make the old school talent look amazing.) |
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 27, 2018 7:36:36 GMT -5
I don’t mind it in the case of Natalya as The Riott Squad need some serious build up to make them look like a threat. I do agree on your other points. It feels rather depressing seeing so many dudes getting beaten and bitched around. Eh, I’ve always been a Natalya fan, but I think her and Riott Squad could both benefit from getting stronger off being fed jobbers. That’s one other thing I think could help Raw’s faces look stronger, killing non-descript workers we’re not supposed to care about. I think we could have more over face and heel midcarders if they used local people more often. (Not that the show can be all squashes now, but those squashes helped make the old school talent look amazing.) Right. You want people to care when someone beats.....say, Apollo Crew or the Revival? Have them win some squash matches. it also helps build guys up. Look at Strowman and Ryback, for example. They murdered a parade of jobbers before going on to a lower-midcard feud. |
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 27, 2018 7:41:16 GMT -5
People point to Bryan’s journey to the main event of Mania 30 as this perfect story, and I guess as a template for a perfect face rise, but- and he got a rapid push by WWE standards anyway- he was over enough to be world champion in 2012. Were I booking Daniel Bryan, I might have had him win the WWE title one year earlier, and I would have let him run roughshod for a while. He would beat midcarders, he would become the new “establishment star”, and I believe he’d be even bigger than he is now. Know who was a good template for what you described? Bret Hart and his first title run. Dude beats Flair and then defended the title against absolutely everyone. (Which, on a related note, a face "fighting champion" type is something I want to see....they were kinda going that way with Reigns for a bit) |
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Rhody Codes
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Post by Rhody Codes on Nov 27, 2018 7:46:19 GMT -5
Eh, I’ve always been a Natalya fan, but I think her and Riott Squad could both benefit from getting stronger off being fed jobbers. That’s one other thing I think could help Raw’s faces look stronger, killing non-descript workers we’re not supposed to care about. I think we could have more over face and heel midcarders if they used local people more often. (Not that the show can be all squashes now, but those squashes helped make the old school talent look amazing.) Right. You want people to care when someone beats.....say, Apollo Crew or the Revival? Have them win some squash matches. it also helps build guys up. Look at Strowman and Ryback, for example. They murdered a parade of jobbers before going on to a lower-midcard feud. What made Braun's run of killing jobbers memorable was that said jobbers still were unique personalities, despite only being there for the sole purpose of getting those hands. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 27, 2018 7:48:13 GMT -5
Eh, I’ve always been a Natalya fan, but I think her and Riott Squad could both benefit from getting stronger off being fed jobbers. That’s one other thing I think could help Raw’s faces look stronger, killing non-descript workers we’re not supposed to care about. I think we could have more over face and heel midcarders if they used local people more often. (Not that the show can be all squashes now, but those squashes helped make the old school talent look amazing.) Right. You want people to care when someone beats.....say, Apollo Crew or the Revival? Have them win some squash matches. it also helps build guys up. Look at Strowman and Ryback, for example. They murdered a parade of jobbers before going on to a lower-midcard feud. And that in turn makes the tippy top faces, or wrestlers period, look even stronger when they win. They beat the above average wrestlers who beat the average wrestlers who beat the lames. |
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 27, 2018 7:52:26 GMT -5
Right. You want people to care when someone beats.....say, Apollo Crew or the Revival? Have them win some squash matches. it also helps build guys up. Look at Strowman and Ryback, for example. They murdered a parade of jobbers before going on to a lower-midcard feud. And that in turn makes the tippy top faces, or wrestlers period, look even stronger when they win. They beat the above average wrestlers who beat the average wrestlers who beat the lames. Sure. Feeding a guy who can beat jobbers on Superstars like Koko B Ware to the Bossman at Summerslam helps build the Bossman for Hogan. It's an easy concept. |
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Nov 27, 2018 8:14:02 GMT -5
Many fans, despite WWE trying to write it like a scripted TV drama (which I feel is a primary source for all of the recent “heat”, they think it’s compelling drama) are still watching this show within the context of a combat sport. When the faces are struggling against the midcard heels every week, I think WWE’s idea is that they come off as “sympathetic”, but that’s not how a lot of casual fans see it. They take those losses as meaning the face can’t get the job done. I think this part in particular is a great point. This is where the staff needs a sports fan to help them book. Struggling with a lesser opponent is a sign of weakness, not something you want to relate to. Think of a team like the Steelers this year. They struggle in every game and then usually win in some thrilling last second victory. But the perception isn’t “what gutty fighters!” it’s more “man they almost lost to those guys!? They suck man. The Patriots are going to kill them”. They’re seen more as a fraud than a contender. There needs to be clear hierarchies. Think of how Hogan or Warrior would just steamroll midcarders in the rare occasions they’d meet. Babyfaces need to look dominant. I think huge part of Roman Reign’s failure is they booked him like he was lucky instead of good. It’s ok for your top babyfaces to be awesome. People will get behind that. |
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Post by chronocross on Nov 27, 2018 8:36:11 GMT -5
I don't mind too much as long as this ends with Braun squashing Corbin at the PPV, if he is well enough of course.
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Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on Nov 27, 2018 8:51:58 GMT -5
I don't mind too much as long as this ends with Braun squashing Corbin at the PPV, if he is well enough of course. Problem is, that it looks likely that Alexa Bliss will be named GM in the place of Baron, and Braun fails in his 7th attempt to win the Universal Title. Then the heel dominance continues. |
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Post by cabbageboy on Nov 27, 2018 8:54:13 GMT -5
Heels constantly getting heat has been a problem for decades. It's very difficult to strike a decent balance. I noted in the other section in the Mid-South thread that one of the problems I had with 1982 was that it was nothing but heels constantly killing the faces. They had a string of about 4 months of nothing but the Wild Samoans and One Man Gang just maiming all the faces and this being 1982 they never showed their ultimate comeuppance on TV (you needed to go to the Superdome). Once that was over and JYD and Olympia ran off the Samoans it was literally about a month before Dibiase turned heel and screwed JYD and at least that stuff was more entertaining. By the end of the year though I noticed several fans cheering Dibiase, Duggan, and Borne, mainly because they were actually winners. The weird aspect is that Watts was always the biggest law and order guy in wrestling, yet heels were dominating his shows. In that regard having a corrupt GM that screws everyone makes more sense in storyline, even if it makes no sense for a company to want its authority figures to be scum.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 27, 2018 9:01:53 GMT -5
Another real gripe is that the babyfaces are apparently cool with being outnumbered without the thought of possible banding together.
Crews: Oh, Elias is getting his ass kicked out there....should we help?
Rhyno: Im busy eating this grilled cheese
Finn: Yeah, I'm sure he'll be fine..... I'm also sure I'll have better luck later with this exact same scenario
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
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Post by Nosnorb on Nov 27, 2018 9:04:22 GMT -5
Another real gripe is that the babyfaces are apparently cool with being outnumbered without the thought of possible banding together. Unless you are Lucha House Party. F*** those guys. |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Nov 27, 2018 9:07:34 GMT -5
Heels constantly getting heat has been a problem for decades. It's very difficult to strike a decent balance. And that's something we need to redress, because under the current set up there is almost literally no option that doesn't lead to someone being unhappy, such is the toxicity of the company/fan relationship right now. Say Elias and Balor fought off the 3-on-1 heel attacks on RAW. The focus wouldn't be on the babyfaces being great, it'd be on the heels being weak and we'd be calling them jobbers and bitches and geeks and losers instead. The other issue is, and this is probably one of the root causes of the uneasiness... It's all well and good for these guys to get heat, but there's no guarantee that the faces being laid out will even be involved in a victory over them, because so often it's to heat the heels up for someone else. To paraphrase an old saying, you're getting your heat off of Peter to put over Paul (not THAT Paul... usually). |
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Post by stevec484 on Nov 27, 2018 9:30:32 GMT -5
lol at the idea that WWE is trying to write a scripted drama. It's not anymore. It's a circus act in the ring with comedy segments in between
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 27, 2018 9:34:51 GMT -5
Heels constantly getting heat has been a problem for decades. It's very difficult to strike a decent balance. And that's something we need to redress, because under the current set up there is almost literally no option that doesn't lead to someone being unhappy, such is the toxicity of the company/fan relationship right now. Say Elias and Balor fought off the 3-on-1 heel attacks on RAW. The focus wouldn't be on the babyfaces being great, it'd be on the heels being weak and we'd be calling them jobbers and bitches and geeks and losers instead. The other issue is, and this is probably one of the root causes of the uneasiness... It's all well and good for these guys to get heat, but there's no guarantee that the faces being laid out will even be involved in a victory over them, because so often it's to heat the heels up for someone else. To paraphrase an old saying, you're getting your heat off of Peter to put over Paul (not THAT Paul... usually). Which leads me back to my main point: you literally cannot make everyone happy, so the solution is to keep your new superstar face winning, and let the chips of fan reaction fall where they may. Don’t worry if the veteran fans are cold to them at first, keep them looking strong and get those new fans. |
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