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Post by héad.casé on Dec 24, 2018 16:01:03 GMT -5
If you've heard any interviews with Bischoff where he discusses Starrcade 97 and Hogan not putting Sting over clean, he always brings this up as a reason - that leading up to the PPV he and Hogan felt Sting had let himself get out of shape and "looked like he hadn't seen a gym or tanning bed in months" and felt like Sting didn't have his head in the game to play at the highest level.
I mean he was wearing that bodysuit for a while, but it still shouldn't have been reason enough to stop him going over clean.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on Dec 24, 2018 16:07:37 GMT -5
braywyatttable.gif
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 16:08:45 GMT -5
Lol, maybe he wasn't in great shape but the match was shit because of Hogan dominating most of it and the garbage ass finish.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Dec 24, 2018 16:33:15 GMT -5
That excuse is why you no longer mean anything in the business Bisch.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 17:00:01 GMT -5
I have thoughts and opinions on this. Bear with me, this will either be brief and succinct or a rambling mess.
Assuming it was the case. He turned up overweight and pale. Fine. Why does he go over then?
You don't think he deserves to win because of that. Have him lose.
You want to shock him into shape? Have him lose with the threat he won't get his win at all unless he gets in shape.
He stays out of condition, Hogan is an even hotter heel for Goldberg or Bret to build instead. You can even play it as Sting was never WCW just out for himself and someone else is your vanquishing hero.
He gets in shape? Brilliant, pull the trigger then. You have Hogan screw him properly until he can't get away and the rejuvenated buff Stinger wins.
All he did was screw everyone on the finish. If Sting is going over, IT HAS TO BE CLEAN. You built a year for this. By having Sting win in this fashion and subsequently gaslight the fans (seriously, every show afterwards Hogan talks about beating Sting and noone challenges it) you blow the finish, blow the follow up AND tell the fans not to care about anything because this year long angle means sod all. It's a story that makes him look like a horrible businessman when he presents himself as that businessman within wrestling, but he can't see it because he's too concerned about justifying himself and his ego in the face of criticism. It if stood up, he wouldn't need to explain this, after the number of times its been reviewed, people would see it by now.
It's an excuse that holds no water when you scrutinise it. It's like Nash's excuses for beating Goldberg; under the spotlight it's clearly bogus but anyone who argues it is either a mark who wasn't there or a bitter ex employee (even though they totally don't care what others think of them).
Additionally I've heard 3 separate interviews say they saw Sting with Luger essentially consoling him that night. "The BS had finally got to him" was one quote. Just WCW and Bischoff being WCW and Bischoff.
Further, this is the same guy who challenged Vince and got the company sued, meaning they lost one of their biggest stars and best performers for ages after he went off on Flair and threatened to ruin his family. We're really trusting his judgement or telling of the story with this?
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Post by chronocross on Dec 24, 2018 17:04:27 GMT -5
To be honest I wasn't all that bothered by the finish at the time, what bothered me was the next night on Nitro where they had Hogan pin Sting again and the title being vacant after all the buildup to have Sting win it in the first place.
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cjh
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Post by cjh on Dec 24, 2018 17:11:34 GMT -5
I have thoughts and opinions on this. Bear with me, this will either be brief and succinct or a rambling mess. Assuming it was the case. He turned up overweight and pale. Fine. Why does he go over then? You don't think he deserves to win because of that. Have him lose.
You want to shock him into shape? Have him lose with the threat he won't get his win at all unless he gets in shape.He stays out of condition, Hogan is an even hotter heel for Goldberg or Bret to build instead. You can even play it as Sting was never WCW just out for himself and someone else is your vanquishing hero. He gets in shape? Brilliant, pull the trigger then. You have Hogan screw him properly until he can't get away and the rejuvenated buff Stinger wins. All he did was screw everyone on the finish. If Sting is going over, IT HAS TO BE CLEAN. You built a year for this. By having Sting win in this fashion and subsequently gaslight the fans (seriously, every show afterwards Hogan talks about beating Sting and noone challenges it) you blow the finish, blow the follow up AND tell the fans not to care about anything because this year long angle means sod all. It's a story that makes him look like a horrible businessman when he presents himself as that businessman within wrestling, but he can't see it because he's too concerned about justifying himself and his ego in the face of criticism. It if stood up, he wouldn't need to explain this, after the number of times its been reviewed, people would see it by now. It's an excuse that holds no water when you scrutinise it. It's like Nash's excuses for beating Goldberg; under the spotlight it's clearly bogus but anyone who argues it is either a mark who wasn't there or a bitter ex employee (even though they totally don't care what others think of them). Additionally I've heard 3 separate interviews say they saw Sting with Luger essentially consoling him that night. "The BS had finally got to him" was one quote. Just WCW and Bischoff being WCW and Bischoff. Further, this is the same guy who challenged Vince and got the company sued, meaning they lost one of their biggest stars and best performers for ages after he went off on Flair and threatened to ruin his family. We're really trusting his judgement or telling of the story with this? He answered that by saying having Hogan win was never going to happen given the build up and that the finish they did would have worked better had Patrick actually done a fast count.
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Post by stevec484 on Dec 24, 2018 17:33:52 GMT -5
Eric was heavily implying Sting's drug usage but didn't want to just come out and say it. Sting has admitted it was a problem at this time.
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Shark
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Post by Shark on Dec 24, 2018 17:38:34 GMT -5
I think we can generally agree Sting wasn't in the best shape of his life, but it's not like WCW main events at the time were known for their work rate. They were built on the spectacle. There's no way Sting was in worse shape than Roddy Piper who Hogan put over a hell of a lot more than he ever did Sting. It's also not like Sting wasn't at TV every week. Did they not think to say something to Sting first if they had an issue with the shape his body was in? That match legit could have lasted 30 seconds and just been Sting hitting the corner splash on a stunned Hogan, scorpion deathlock, submission, crowd loses their minds.
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Post by héad.casé on Dec 24, 2018 18:40:57 GMT -5
I think we can generally agree Sting wasn't in the best shape of his life, but it's not like WCW main events at the time were known for their work rate. They were built on the spectacle. There's no way Sting was in worse shape than Roddy Piper who Hogan put over a hell of a lot more than he ever did Sting. It's also not like Sting wasn't at TV every week. Did they not think to say something to Sting first if they had an issue with the shape his body was in? That match legit could have lasted 30 seconds and just been Sting hitting the corner splash on a stunned Hogan, scorpion deathlock, submission, crowd loses their minds. Bischoff said on 83 Weeks that they didn't know he'd gotten out of shape because "we never saw him out of gimmick".
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 24, 2018 19:29:25 GMT -5
The whole out of shape thing rings true since he obviously had not been in a ring in a long time nor did he do match preparation which left him rusty in the ring. He wasn't coming out there with a beer gut and all. Could be Eric talking out his ass because Hulk caught cold feet and maybe Sting drug problem also factored into it as well which forced him to leave a few months later if i'm not mistaken
However, what I can never get with was the whole tanning shit. His gimmick was always one of darkness and brooding so why would he visit a tanning bed. That shit made no sense what so ever
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 19:34:28 GMT -5
the same guy booked Jay Leno to wrestle
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Post by mrpeacock on Dec 24, 2018 22:37:32 GMT -5
He said Sting was too out of shape to go over clean on Hogan? When two months earlier Roddy Piper at 43 years old beat him by submission. Sound logic.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 24, 2018 22:46:01 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 22:50:08 GMT -5
I have thoughts and opinions on this. Bear with me, this will either be brief and succinct or a rambling mess. Assuming it was the case. He turned up overweight and pale. Fine. Why does he go over then? You don't think he deserves to win because of that. Have him lose.
You want to shock him into shape? Have him lose with the threat he won't get his win at all unless he gets in shape.He stays out of condition, Hogan is an even hotter heel for Goldberg or Bret to build instead. You can even play it as Sting was never WCW just out for himself and someone else is your vanquishing hero. He gets in shape? Brilliant, pull the trigger then. You have Hogan screw him properly until he can't get away and the rejuvenated buff Stinger wins. All he did was screw everyone on the finish. If Sting is going over, IT HAS TO BE CLEAN. You built a year for this. By having Sting win in this fashion and subsequently gaslight the fans (seriously, every show afterwards Hogan talks about beating Sting and noone challenges it) you blow the finish, blow the follow up AND tell the fans not to care about anything because this year long angle means sod all. It's a story that makes him look like a horrible businessman when he presents himself as that businessman within wrestling, but he can't see it because he's too concerned about justifying himself and his ego in the face of criticism. It if stood up, he wouldn't need to explain this, after the number of times its been reviewed, people would see it by now. It's an excuse that holds no water when you scrutinise it. It's like Nash's excuses for beating Goldberg; under the spotlight it's clearly bogus but anyone who argues it is either a mark who wasn't there or a bitter ex employee (even though they totally don't care what others think of them). Additionally I've heard 3 separate interviews say they saw Sting with Luger essentially consoling him that night. "The BS had finally got to him" was one quote. Just WCW and Bischoff being WCW and Bischoff. Further, this is the same guy who challenged Vince and got the company sued, meaning they lost one of their biggest stars and best performers for ages after he went off on Flair and threatened to ruin his family. We're really trusting his judgement or telling of the story with this? He answered that by saying having Hogan win was never going to happen given the build up and that the finish they did would have worked better had Patrick actually done a fast count. It's still needless overbooking if it had happened 'right', and the fact the fast count didn't happen is arguably down to either him or Hogan anyway. Additionally he was happy to bend to the unprofessionalism of Nash, Hall, Hogan et al, but decides to punish Sting at the time he had to pull the trigger. It's just not a good decision.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 24, 2018 23:03:37 GMT -5
He answered that by saying having Hogan win was never going to happen given the build up and that the finish they did would have worked better had Patrick actually done a fast count. It's still needless overbooking if it had happened 'right', and the fact the fast count didn't happen is arguably down to either him or Hogan anyway. Additionally he was happy to bend to the unprofessionalism of Nash, Hall, Hogan et al, but decides to punish Sting at the time he had to pull the trigger. It's just not a good decision. Right. Bisch had booked himself into a corner, but he didn't have the balls to pull the trigger on the one thing he one million, billion percent absolutely HAD to pull the trigger on, and WCW suffered for it long term.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Dec 24, 2018 23:26:00 GMT -5
Call a spade a spade. Hogan didn’t want to lose clean. Just admit it, Bish.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 24, 2018 23:37:32 GMT -5
I dunno, Hogan had no problems with putting Luger and Piper over clean in 1997, ditto Goldberg in 1998. I do wonder how much of this really started hurting WCW. See, Bischoff can defend the various booking at these PPVs all he wants, but what he can't really defend is the dubious aftermath. WCW's main event booking in 1998 was incoherent and silly, with no real idea where to go with the title scene until Goldberg got crazy hot out of nowhere. Even then Goldberg largely had a lame, uneventful title reign where he still played 2nd fiddle to Hogan.
It's the same thing with Starrcade 1998. Okay, you want to beat Goldberg in screwy fashion. But what then? The lack of competent followup was the real ratings killer. Even the Fingerpoke in theory set up a reunited NWO with Goldberg now needing to go through all of these guys to get another piece of Hogan, ostensibly building to the PPV match they didn't do initially. I'd accuse Hogan of playing politics with turning face but I'm fairly sure it was Flair's own idea to do that double turn, though I dunno why anyone in WCW listened given that it made zero storyline sense.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Dec 25, 2018 1:55:32 GMT -5
I really can't help feel it has less to do with Sting being out of shape but rather Bischoff not wanting to admit that he was Hogan's bitch.
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Post by CubsFan71 on Dec 25, 2018 3:26:56 GMT -5
Some of y’all seem to have forgotten that Hulk Hogan was the biggest politician in the locker room at the time. E didn’t put anyone over that wouldn’t in some fashion give him his win back. And Eric “whatever you say Mr. Hulk! You’re the best!” Bischoff being the Hogan kiss ass that he was, was going to do whatever he had to keep Mr. Hulk happy. It was the Hulk Hogan Show and Hulk wasn’t going to let anyyhing derail that.
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