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Post by chronocross on Dec 26, 2018 11:24:39 GMT -5
I'm surprised they didn't have Sting at least some house shows/dark matches or two leading up to it to work off the ring rust.
They should've just did what they did with Hogan/Luger where Hogan hits the finisher, Luger kicks out and rallies, fighting off the nWo guys and gets the big win via submission/pin.
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 26, 2018 11:28:56 GMT -5
This is an issue I don’t get why Conrad didn’t press him on. They didn’t screw Sting so much as they screwed the fans. After the build and hype fans got the middle finger Yep, the fans wanted to see Hogan finally get his comeuppance and after dominating as champion for a year, Sting beating Hogan clean was the obvious payoff. Then couple the screwy Starrcade finish with Austin finally getting his big championship win at WrestleMania and the tide completely changed. WWF gave the fans what they wanted and WCW didn't. While Bischoff has some valid points about Sting's drug issues, what he completely ignores is Sting got the belt and win over Hogan at SuperBrawl VIII less than two months later. It is not like Sting's issues got better at that point and from my understanding progressed until finally deciding to clean up in September of that year. The real question is was it politics, or just WCW thinking they could milk the match with the held up belt angle and rematch with Sting winning at SuperBrawl VIII? They also had the Nitro match in January that went off the air before the finish, leading to the finish airing on Thunder's debut episode. What Starrcade ultimately accomplished was causing the fans to lose trust in WCW. Most Nitro main event finishes were DQs or no contests, but to have the biggest PPV of the year with a main event built for over a year end in this fashion really cheated the fans. I have to wonder how much WCW PPV buyrates went down after this and how many paid for SuperBrawl VIII vs Starrcade '97? Starrcade ‘97 had an estimated 700,000 buys, which was more than double almost any other PPV prior. Superbrawl did 415,000. indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2014/02/deciphering-wcw-buyrates.html?m=1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 13:23:03 GMT -5
Bischoff doesn’t get it, despite it happening more than twenty years ago, the Starrcade 97 main event was the beginning of the end for wcw. This is an issue I don’t get why Conrad didn’t press him on. They didn’t screw Sting so much as they screwed the fans. After the build and hype fans got the middle finger Conrad isn't a journalist, and he's talking to his buddies. It's a flaw in the format.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Dec 26, 2018 14:55:08 GMT -5
I always felt the “out of shape” excuse cut a little deeper than being pale and chubby.
The only issue was it shouldn’t have mattered at all. The crowd wanted Stinng to beat Hogan. The format should have been simple. Bret Hart should have been the ref all along: they could have teased him siding with Hogan. They could have nWo run ins but in between all that Hogan should have been getting his ass kicked.
There was no legitimate excuse for that god awful abomination of a match. Worst match in wrestling history because of the after effects. They should have had Hogan eat it and die afterwards. If he bitched about it, which he certainly would then pay him to sit home until he needs to promote a movie
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Dec 26, 2018 15:43:39 GMT -5
Sting should have gone over clean. I get that Bischoff was upset that Sting was out of shape. It’s part of Sting’s job to be prepared for the match. He had all year to do so and he shows up looking terrible. It is lazy when all that time and money has been invested in him. Then you have the rumors of substance abuse out there too. That may have played a part in Bischoff’s feelings about the situation too. Add in that this is WCW’s biggest event in history. I don’t blame Bischoff for being upset. I guess the finish was Bischoff’s way of punishing Sting as much as he could at the time for showing up like that. Sting still had to win. I think a better punishment would have been to have him drop the title back to Hogan the next night on Nitro. Sting gets his clean win and the crowd / viewers get the payoff. Hogan regains the title the next night and they can pop a rating on Nitro. The belt was changing hands enough back then so it would’ve been acceptable. That would’ve been a better way to handle it since Sting wasn’t in the proper condition. Give Sting time to clean up his act and get himself together to set up a third match between them that they can sell down the line. Now that Sting would be wrestling again they could’ve given it a completely different build and kept a better eye on his in ring performances to make sure he was ready for the third match.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 26, 2018 16:46:29 GMT -5
Sting should have gone over clean. I get that Bischoff was upset that Sting was out of shape. It’s part of Sting’s job to be prepared for the match. He had all year to do so and he shows up looking terrible. It is lazy when all that time and money has been invested in him. Then you have the rumors of substance abuse out there too. That may have played a part in Bischoff’s feelings about the situation too. Add in that this is WCW’s biggest event in history. I don’t blame Bischoff for being upset. I guess the finish was Bischoff’s way of punishing Sting as much as he could at the time for showing up like that. Sting still had to win. I think a better punishment would have been to have him drop the title back to Hogan the next night on Nitro. Sting gets his clean win and the crowd / viewers get the payoff. Hogan regains the title the next night and they can pop a rating on Nitro. The belt was changing hands enough back then so it would’ve been acceptable. That would’ve been a better way to handle it since Sting wasn’t in the proper condition. Give Sting time to clean up his act and get himself together to set up a third match between them that they can sell down the line. Now that Sting would be wrestling again they could’ve given it a completely different build and kept a better eye on his in ring performances to make sure he was ready for the third match. Bischoff was heel and leader of the nWo at that point right? So Sting wins clean. Next night Bischoff strips him of the title and fires him kayfabe. Sends Sting home in real life until he shapes up, gets help with the drugs, whatever. Tries to award Hogan the title back but you have Nash and Hall who want their shot. Leads into the breakup and Black and White vs. Wolfpac feud. If Sting cleans up he comes back in as a wild card. If not you wait until Goldberg is ready. Of course this is all with hindsight.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 26, 2018 17:11:34 GMT -5
The tanning stuff is kind of a pet peeve for me, though I’m not surprised that tanning enthusiasts like Hogan & Bischoff would have an issue with it. It’s also a good thing they weren’t making the call on Sheamus or Paige.
A related story that happened to me a few months ago... I was at the gym, changing after my workout, earbuds still in. This other guy nearby, probably 50-ish with a skin tone not far from that of a lobster, starts trying to talk to me. Ofc it’s bad etiquette to talk to someone with their earbuds in just to shoot the crap (ask Randy Orton). But I could tell he was saying something about tanning beds. Assuming he was looking for info on using the gym’s beds, I told him, “I don’t know about the tanning beds. You’ll have to ask at the front desk.” The guy replied, “No, I was saying you look like you could use the tanning beds.” Now, admittedly, I’m no bronzed god, but I’m not exactly pasty white either. I get a reasonable amount of sun, and I have about 13% Native American blood in me, so I think I have a pretty natural-looking complexion with an appropriate level of color. But besides, I have an extensive family history of skin cancer, so a tanning bed is one of the last places I need to be.
The guy continued, “Tanning beds are good for you. They’ve got collagens.” I just said, “Yeah,” and put my earbud back in. I saw no need to argue, but just figured I’d consider the source & be glad I don’t have the lobster guy’s tanning bed addiction.
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Post by héad.casé on Dec 26, 2018 17:20:41 GMT -5
Sting should have gone over clean. I get that Bischoff was upset that Sting was out of shape. It’s part of Sting’s job to be prepared for the match. He had all year to do so and he shows up looking terrible. It is lazy when all that time and money has been invested in him. Then you have the rumors of substance abuse out there too. That may have played a part in Bischoff’s feelings about the situation too. Add in that this is WCW’s biggest event in history. I don’t blame Bischoff for being upset. I guess the finish was Bischoff’s way of punishing Sting as much as he could at the time for showing up like that. Sting still had to win. I think a better punishment would have been to have him drop the title back to Hogan the next night on Nitro. Sting gets his clean win and the crowd / viewers get the payoff. Hogan regains the title the next night and they can pop a rating on Nitro. The belt was changing hands enough back then so it would’ve been acceptable. That would’ve been a better way to handle it since Sting wasn’t in the proper condition. Give Sting time to clean up his act and get himself together to set up a third match between them that they can sell down the line. Now that Sting would be wrestling again they could’ve given it a completely different build and kept a better eye on his in ring performances to make sure he was ready for the third match. Bischoff was heel and leader of the nWo at that point right? So Sting wins clean. Next night Bischoff strips him of the title and fires him kayfabe. Sends Sting home in real life until he shapes up, gets help with the drugs, whatever. Tries to award Hogan the title back but you have Nash and Hall who want their shot. Leads into the breakup and Black and White vs. Wolfpac feud. If Sting cleans up he comes back in as a wild card. If not you wait until Goldberg is ready. Of course this is all with hindsight. He was but a short while before they had introduced JJ Dillon as WCW's authority figure to counter Bischoff abusing his power as WCW President.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 26, 2018 17:40:35 GMT -5
Unless Sting outright shouldn’t have been in the ring, you do the proper finish. The finish isn’t for Sting. Or Hogan. Or Bischoff. It’s for the fans and for the story you’re telling. Bischoff's response to that is that the narrative and negative feelings about the finish are totally in retrospect. He told a story of a guy who was at Starrcade 1997 as a teenager recently complaining to him about the finish. As they talked, the guy admitted his opinion that the finish was bad came years later after discussing it and reading about it. At the building that night, he and thousands of others were jumping out of their seats in joy when Bret called for the bell. Yeah, sometimes something is fun in the moment and later you realize you shouldn’t have done that. If you do the right thing in the first place that problem magically goes away. Except Bish is trying to justify arguably the biggest mistake in WCW history wasn’t that bad.
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Post by cjh on Dec 26, 2018 17:52:49 GMT -5
Bischoff's response to that is that the narrative and negative feelings about the finish are totally in retrospect. He told a story of a guy who was at Starrcade 1997 as a teenager recently complaining to him about the finish. As they talked, the guy admitted his opinion that the finish was bad came years later after discussing it and reading about it. At the building that night, he and thousands of others were jumping out of their seats in joy when Bret called for the bell. Yeah, sometimes something is fun in the moment and later you realize you shouldn’t have done that. If you do the right thing in the first place that problem magically goes away. Except Bish is trying to justify arguably the biggest mistake in WCW history wasn’t that bad. Well, yeah, because that match was immediately followed by WCW's most financially successful year ever. The Hogan/Flair double turn in March 1999 would be a much better example of a terrible booking decision Bischoff approved because ratings and attendance started to drop almost overnight.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 23:43:06 GMT -5
If Nick Patrick does an actual fast count, is this even a discussion? That’s something I’ve always wondered. If Patrick counts fast, and then Bret plays the hero by refusing to let another star get screwed by a ref, then it actually makes perfect sense and is actually a decent way to mixing Survivor Series 1997 into WCW’s storylines. But the count was normal so Sting looked like a damn goober.
Hogan jobbed clean to Luger a few months earlier. Like, really clean. Luger practically fought off everyone in the NWO in that match and made Hogan submit. I don’t know why Hulk would have an issue losing like that to Sting. Not to mention the Piper jobs like others here brought up. Then there was Goldberg a few months later. Just seems weird if Hulk had an issue specifically with Sting.
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Post by mauled on Dec 27, 2018 0:09:45 GMT -5
If Nick Patrick does an actual fast count, is this even a discussion? That’s something I’ve always wondered. If Patrick counts fast, and then Bret plays the hero by refusing to let another star get screwed by a ref, then it actually makes perfect sense and is actually a decent way to mixing Survivor Series 1997 into WCW’s storylines. But the count was normal so Sting looked like a damn goober. Hogan jobbed clean to Luger a few months earlier. Like, really clean. Luger practically fought off everyone in the NWO in that match and made Hogan submit. I don’t know why Hulk would have an issue losing like that to Sting. Not to mention the Piper jobs like others here brought up. Then there was Goldberg a few months later. Just seems weird if Hulk had an issue specifically with Sting. When Hogan jobs its always so he can get his win back afterwards at bigger more important venue. Take Goldberg, he jobbed on a Nitro but planned to get his win back on a PPV. Also with the greatest respect, Piper was a long passed his sell buy date and Luger was never going to achieve his popularity or be a threat to Hogan owning the Main Event spot. The issue with Sting was that he was a threat. Why do you think he cancelled the Bret Hart feud in Canada that was planned. Hogan saw him as a threat. So Sting had to be dealt with.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 27, 2018 0:09:47 GMT -5
If Nick Patrick does an actual fast count, is this even a discussion? That’s something I’ve always wondered. If Patrick counts fast, and then Bret plays the hero by refusing to let another star get screwed by a ref, then it actually makes perfect sense and is actually a decent way to mixing Survivor Series 1997 into WCW’s storylines. But the count was normal so Sting looked like a damn goober. Hogan jobbed clean to Luger a few months earlier. Like, really clean. Luger practically fought off everyone in the NWO in that match and made Hogan submit. I don’t know why Hulk would have an issue losing like that to Sting. Not to mention the Piper jobs like others here brought up. Then there was Goldberg a few months later. Just seems weird if Hulk had an issue specifically with Sting. Sting demolishes Hogan and wins 1-2-3. That’s the finish. That’s the story. No Bret, no Montreal, no fast count.
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Post by lildude8218 on Dec 27, 2018 1:25:57 GMT -5
Bischoff was not only covering for Sting's drug use but he's taking the blame for someone else.
Rick Rude.
Rude saw Sting and said "You fat...out of shape...Starrcade sweathog...keep the noise down while I take my robe off and show all the boys in the back who the real sexiest man is....hit the music."
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 27, 2018 2:39:54 GMT -5
If Nick Patrick does an actual fast count, is this even a discussion? That’s something I’ve always wondered. If Patrick counts fast, and then Bret plays the hero by refusing to let another star get screwed by a ref, then it actually makes perfect sense and is actually a decent way to mixing Survivor Series 1997 into WCW’s storylines. But the count was normal so Sting looked like a damn goober. Hogan jobbed clean to Luger a few months earlier. Like, really clean. Luger practically fought off everyone in the NWO in that match and made Hogan submit. I don’t know why Hulk would have an issue losing like that to Sting. Not to mention the Piper jobs like others here brought up. Then there was Goldberg a few months later. Just seems weird if Hulk had an issue specifically with Sting. Losing Luger was almost a must and Hogan being the shrewd politician knew that. He was getting the win back anyway. I also wouldn't put it past him to have given up that Luger win as well because his win does cut into the Sting angle
Losing to Sting wasn't just a random L, it was a payoff to a year long angle that could effect him and his group. Piper only came back to cash in on the fact Hogan never got his W's back against him and in the end Hogan was never going to lose the title and can move right passed his program with Roddy with no problem
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 27, 2018 3:41:59 GMT -5
What if, at the end of Jurassic Park, instead of the characters living, the T-Rex pukes them back up after he ate them previously? For some reason they live through digestion.
Who the f*** cares? They lived. How they lived isn't as important as they lived.
That's what Bischoff is trying to justify.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 8:56:33 GMT -5
If Nick Patrick does an actual fast count, is this even a discussion? That’s something I’ve always wondered. If Patrick counts fast, and then Bret plays the hero by refusing to let another star get screwed by a ref, then it actually makes perfect sense and is actually a decent way to mixing Survivor Series 1997 into WCW’s storylines. But the count was normal so Sting looked like a damn goober. Hogan jobbed clean to Luger a few months earlier. Like, really clean. Luger practically fought off everyone in the NWO in that match and made Hogan submit. I don’t know why Hulk would have an issue losing like that to Sting. Not to mention the Piper jobs like others here brought up. Then there was Goldberg a few months later. Just seems weird if Hulk had an issue specifically with Sting. Sting demolishes Hogan and wins 1-2-3. That’s the finish. That’s the story. No Bret, no Montreal, no fast count. Not saying the finish was a good idea, just that it would have made sense if Patrick had counted fast like he was supposed to. Plus it would have given Hogan a reason to feud with Bret afterwards but I guess that was never in the cards anyway. The way Luger won the title is how I would have booked Sting winning at Starrcade. A squash as the end game to an 18 month angle would have been a little cheap, but have Hogan try to cheat as much as possible, have the NWO try to interfere but have Sting overcome all of that to win clean.
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Post by mauled on Dec 27, 2018 9:11:41 GMT -5
Sting demolishes Hogan and wins 1-2-3. That’s the finish. That’s the story. No Bret, no Montreal, no fast count. Not saying the finish was a good idea, just that it would have made sense if Patrick had counted fast like he was supposed to. Plus it would have given Hogan a reason to feud with Bret afterwards but I guess that was never in the cards anyway. The way Luger won the title is how I would have booked Sting winning at Starrcade. A squash as the end game to an 18 month angle would have been a little cheap, but have Hogan try to cheat as much as possible, have the NWO try to interfere but have Sting overcome all of that to win clean. Actually that was in the cards. The plan was to do a Hogan/Bret feud in Canada for WCW to break into the Canadian market. Hogan said no and cancelled it.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Dec 27, 2018 13:01:10 GMT -5
On a micro level the finish was stupid and I think the flatness of it convinced viewers like myself to switch from Nitro to Raw. On a macro level WCW did even better in 1998 so the beginning of the end talk is overrated. The beginning of the end of the hot run maybe. Not the end end.
Now I don't think Sting was a guy they thought was gonna be the guy in the long term. Still though they should have blown of the angle with a clean win. Really they should have done it months earlier..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 13:18:56 GMT -5
I can't think of any legit reason whatsoever to not let Sting go over clean. Even if it was going to be Sting's last night in the company and he was going to show up on Raw the next night bragging about how he took out the top guy in WCW, he still should have gone over clean. Fans waited over a year for that payoff, and the damage they did to themselves by cheating us out of it was far worse than any other potential consequence.
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