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Post by illiniman88 on Jan 13, 2019 20:02:14 GMT -5
After Raven lost the title at 97 barley Legal, he ended his feud 2 months later with Dreamer by losing a "Loser leaves ECW match"
In a few interviews I read, Raven said it was time to move out of ECW anyway and he had no idea what was left for the RAVEN character in ECW
Heyman has said he had "tons of ideas" to continue the RAVEN character and to keep the character even without the title
So I ask, what do you think Heyman could have done to keep RAVEN on top in ECW? What storylines could have been created?
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jan 13, 2019 20:30:27 GMT -5
Dreamer actually pitched to have Raven pin him at Wrestlepalooza 97. The audience knew that Raven was leaving to wcw so they pretty much knew that he was gonna lose, that would’ve been a cooler moment instead of what we got.
Now when Raven returned, Dreamer pitches to reignite the feud but with a new dynamic, Raven would be the face and Dreamer would be the heel, unfortunately Heyman vetoed it.
I’m calling bullshit on Heyman saying he had more ideas for Raven because when Raven returned he had awful programs. Raven himself admitted that he stopped caring and ecw was just a vacation until the wwe would hire him. On the other hand Tommy Dreamer’s ideas were better than what Heyman did with Raven in 99-2000.
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Post by horsemen4ever on Jan 13, 2019 23:21:24 GMT -5
I don't know, maybe a real Dreamer / Raven vs Dudley feud after the Dudley "killed off" the girl they were fighting over.
I say this in WCW, Raven should have done something with Sullivan, have an alliance, Sullivan could have been the father Raven always wanted. And they team up against Beniot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 23:43:05 GMT -5
Eh. I don't think there's much mystery to the answer, because we saw what he could do with the Raven character while he was there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 23:49:26 GMT -5
I'd like him to be the reluctant savior of the company. Actually come through with all the character's reluctant Messiah baggage, make him the guy, and then have him spiral out of control under that burden.
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Post by horsemen4ever on Jan 13, 2019 23:52:08 GMT -5
I do think Raven's WCW run was underrated. He had some hilarious moments. WCW Halloween Havoc 1998, "I was schedule in an unschedule match", not to mention his Ferris Butler Day Off parody.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jan 14, 2019 2:18:01 GMT -5
just for shits and giggles do a Midnight Rider gimmick on Raven after he loses a "Loser Leaves Town" match to Tommy. Tommy starts getting obsessed with proving it's Raven and driven mad that he can't. give Raven a slimy lawyer type demanding actual proof. Raven even gets on the mic and says "I'm Raven, Tommy....but you can't prove it. Am I admitting it? Or am I just making a joke?"
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jan 14, 2019 4:31:05 GMT -5
I'd like him to be the reluctant savior of the company. Actually come through with all the character's reluctant Messiah baggage, make him the guy, and then have him spiral out of control under that burden. It would tie in nicely with a lot of the work done between Funk and him too, where Funk very much acted like the disappointed father because he saw the potential Raven had to be that person for ECW and felt he was squandering it by being, well, Raven. There's a lot of avenues to take him off of his spiraling too. Even if it's as simple as Dreamer or RVD or another big face taking up the mantle of savior and not cracking, and becoming Raven's new obsession in a Lex Luthor/Superman style relationship.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 14, 2019 6:40:41 GMT -5
Dreamer actually pitched to have Raven pin him at Wrestlepalooza 97. The audience knew that Raven was leaving to wcw so they pretty much knew that he was gonna lose, that would’ve been a cooler moment instead of what we got. Now when Raven returned, Dreamer pitches to reignite the feud but with a new dynamic, Raven would be the face and Dreamer would be the heel, unfortunately Heyman vetoed it. I’m calling bullshit on Heyman saying he had more ideas for Raven because when Raven returned he had awful programs. Raven himself admitted that he stopped caring and ecw was just a vacation until the wwe would hire him. On the other hand Tommy Dreamer’s ideas were better than what Heyman did with Raven in 99-2000. Paul didn’t do anything with Raven in 99/2000 because Raven made it very clear that the second he was legally allowed to (His WCW release stipulated he couldn’t go to WWF until his WCW contract would’ve expired) he was jumping to WWF. That’s also why I really don’t believe the “Who the f*** hired Raven?” story. It was known for like 12-13 months in advance that Raven was headed to WWF. Nobody in that time told Vince? Really?
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Post by ronnie2hotty on Jan 14, 2019 6:49:41 GMT -5
In interviews, Heyman always mentioned that he never got to do a Raven/Sabu feud. That could have been interesting.
There was also Bam Bam Bigelow and Al Snow who would all be in the company in the near future.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jan 14, 2019 9:34:10 GMT -5
Dreamer actually pitched to have Raven pin him at Wrestlepalooza 97. The audience knew that Raven was leaving to wcw so they pretty much knew that he was gonna lose, that would’ve been a cooler moment instead of what we got. Now when Raven returned, Dreamer pitches to reignite the feud but with a new dynamic, Raven would be the face and Dreamer would be the heel, unfortunately Heyman vetoed it. I’m calling bullshit on Heyman saying he had more ideas for Raven because when Raven returned he had awful programs. Raven himself admitted that he stopped caring and ecw was just a vacation until the wwe would hire him. On the other hand Tommy Dreamer’s ideas were better than what Heyman did with Raven in 99-2000. Paul didn’t do anything with Raven in 99/2000 because Raven made it very clear that the second he was legally allowed to (His WCW release stipulated he couldn’t go to WWF until his WCW contract would’ve expired) he was jumping to WWF. That’s also why I really don’t believe the “Who the f*** hired Raven?” story. It was known for like 12-13 months in advance that Raven was headed to WWF. Nobody in that time told Vince? Really? Then why let Raven come back if he was only getting him for a year? Regarding the Vince story, Raven said that the quote was actually “who the tuck hired Johnny Polo back?”. It was Jim Ross who hired him and nobody told Vince, McMahon had no idea that they were the same person so when he asked who Raven was and they told him it was the same guy, he wasn’t pleased. Johnny Polo left the wwf in very bad terms. Raven admitted that it was a mistake introducing Shane to hard partying.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jan 14, 2019 9:34:53 GMT -5
In interviews, Heyman always mentioned that he never got to do a Raven/Sabu feud. That could have been interesting. There was also Bam Bam Bigelow and Al Snow who would all be in the company in the near future. They feuded in tna and it sucked in my opinion.
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Post by TGM on Jan 14, 2019 9:44:19 GMT -5
I have never bought that Vince McMahon didn't know Raven had been hired. He micromanaged EVERYTHING.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jan 14, 2019 11:50:35 GMT -5
I have never bought that Vince McMahon didn't know Raven had been hired. He micromanaged EVERYTHING. To be fair, there's a few cases of Ross during his time in the position hiring his boys and talented, distinctly not Vince's vision of a wrestler types without Vince initially noticing. Why some guys would get hired and have a good feeling about their future in the company due to how welcoming Ross would be, and then have it dry up the moment they got to a taping and Vince saw them for the first time. I can very much see a time when WWE was at one of its biggest heights, was starting to go through the motions to gobble up WCW and ECW, and Vince's pet project of the XFL was coming together Ross getting Raven in without Vince's knowledge till he showed up for a taping. It's also partially why Ace was eventually given the job. Ace was more manageable which Vince liked, would more look for what Vince said to look for and in general was more obedient in the position than Ross had been by all accounts. I'd say in part because according to people around him and the man himself, Ace typically viewed it as a job and he was just a man following his boss' orders rather than Ross who saw it less as just some desk job and still more as a carny wrasslin job.
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Post by corndog on Jan 14, 2019 12:20:12 GMT -5
I have never bought that Vince McMahon didn't know Raven had been hired. He micromanaged EVERYTHING. To be fair, there's a few cases of Ross during his time in the position hiring his boys and talented, distinctly not Vince's vision of a wrestler types without Vince initially noticing. Why some guys would get hired and have a good feeling about their future in the company due to how welcoming Ross would be, and then have it dry up the moment they got to a taping and Vince saw them for the first time. I can very much see a time when WWE was at one of its biggest heights, was starting to go through the motions to gobble up WCW and ECW, and Vince's pet project of the XFL was coming together Ross getting Raven in without Vince's knowledge till he showed up for a taping. It's also partially why Ace was eventually given the job. Ace was more manageable which Vince liked, would more look for what Vince said to look for and in general was more obedient in the position than Ross had been by all accounts. I'd say in part because according to people around him and the man himself, Ace typically viewed it as a job and he was just a man following his boss' orders rather than Ross who saw it less as just some desk job and still more as a carny wrasslin job. I think Ross was giving less of a leash because of his track record. During the Monday Night Wars, WWE couldn't compete monetarily with WCW, so they had to get creative. He brought in Austin, Foley, Ron Simmons, and Vader, who were all Watts guys. He also brought in the Hardy's, Edge, Christian, and JBL who all became bigger stars after the Attitude Era. His track record was pretty damn good, one of his last classes was the Cena, Orton, Batista and Lesnar that stayed on top for the era following him stepping down from the job. It's hard to think of anyone that did anything note worthy during Ace's tenure, outside of the Bellas. But it's obvious Ace just did what Vince wanted, even though it didn't work. He brought in the A-typical bodybuilder types that Vince loved and pretty girls that couldn't work.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jan 14, 2019 12:43:04 GMT -5
To be fair, there's a few cases of Ross during his time in the position hiring his boys and talented, distinctly not Vince's vision of a wrestler types without Vince initially noticing. Why some guys would get hired and have a good feeling about their future in the company due to how welcoming Ross would be, and then have it dry up the moment they got to a taping and Vince saw them for the first time. I can very much see a time when WWE was at one of its biggest heights, was starting to go through the motions to gobble up WCW and ECW, and Vince's pet project of the XFL was coming together Ross getting Raven in without Vince's knowledge till he showed up for a taping. It's also partially why Ace was eventually given the job. Ace was more manageable which Vince liked, would more look for what Vince said to look for and in general was more obedient in the position than Ross had been by all accounts. I'd say in part because according to people around him and the man himself, Ace typically viewed it as a job and he was just a man following his boss' orders rather than Ross who saw it less as just some desk job and still more as a carny wrasslin job. I think Ross was giving less of a leash because of his track record. During the Monday Night Wars, WWE couldn't compete monetarily with WCW, so they had to get creative. He brought in Austin, Foley, Ron Simmons, and Vader, who were all Watts guys. He also brought in the Hardy's, Edge, Christian, and JBL who all became bigger stars after the Attitude Era. His track record was pretty damn good, one of his last classes was the Cena, Orton, Batista and Lesnar that stayed on top for the era following him stepping down from the job. It's hard to think of anyone that did anything note worthy during Ace's tenure, outside of the Bellas. But it's obvious Ace just did what Vince wanted, even though it didn't work. He brought in the A-typical bodybuilder types that Vince loved and pretty girls that couldn't work. Don't get me wrong, I was by no means knocking Ross' job, while he had his blind spots positively and negatively for some talent like you said there's no denying what he accomplished in his time in the job. In part because he cared about it more than just a job to punch in and punch out of, as he would actively fight with Vince for certain guys to get hired in some instances. I see both sides of the coin though. On the one hand, Ross was passionate and wanted to give people an opportunity that he knew could succeed even if Vince couldn't see it yet. On the other hand, it'd be annoying if an employee actively undermined you and went behind your back when he knew you weren't looking to hire guys, or would actively argue your decisions sometimes. Simpler to put a Yes Man in that position, especially if you're in charge of a company as big as the WWE and like to micromanage it as much as Vince does.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 14, 2019 14:42:47 GMT -5
In interviews, Heyman always mentioned that he never got to do a Raven/Sabu feud. That could have been interesting. There was also Bam Bam Bigelow and Al Snow who would all be in the company in the near future. Raven feuding with Sabu and finding his mindgames have no effect on someone so unhinged, so he ends up on the back foot himself and having to go further and further to try outmaneuver Sabu, could have been fun. I like a lot of the ideas in this thread, the reluctant messiah/Lex Luthor things would've been cool. I guess you could also have had him brainwash an actual big name to join the Flock ala Daniel Wyatt.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 14, 2019 18:14:55 GMT -5
I have never bought that Vince McMahon didn't know Raven had been hired. He micromanaged EVERYTHING. Nor have I. Doesn't mean I don't buy him saying that in front of Raven to amuse himself. Wouldn't be the first time he buried a wrestler to their face, jokingly or otherwise.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 15, 2019 10:01:25 GMT -5
Dreamer actually pitched to have Raven pin him at Wrestlepalooza 97. The audience knew that Raven was leaving to wcw so they pretty much knew that he was gonna lose, that would’ve been a cooler moment instead of what we got. Now when Raven returned, Dreamer pitches to reignite the feud but with a new dynamic, Raven would be the face and Dreamer would be the heel, unfortunately Heyman vetoed it. I’m calling bullshit on Heyman saying he had more ideas for Raven because when Raven returned he had awful programs. Raven himself admitted that he stopped caring and ecw was just a vacation until the wwe would hire him. On the other hand Tommy Dreamer’s ideas were better than what Heyman did with Raven in 99-2000. This. Maybe pre-'97, pre Justin Credible Is The Next Big Thing Heyman. After that? Not so much.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jan 15, 2019 10:45:18 GMT -5
I have never bought that Vince McMahon didn't know Raven had been hired. He micromanaged EVERYTHING. Nor have I. Doesn't mean I don't buy him saying that in front of Raven to amuse himself. Wouldn't be the first time he buried a wrestler to their face, jokingly or otherwise. Raven said on his podcast that Vince asked the “who the f*** hired Raven” during a creative meeting and Michael Hayes told Raven later what happened.
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