segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Jan 22, 2019 16:37:10 GMT -5
I like how you can tell the real fans, they actually pinpoint and quote decent Bret Hart promos I didn't think this forum was a 'this is what a real fan is' kind of place. I can't stand most of Flair's promos and am kinda baffled that a guy with some of the worst enunciation I've ever heard is considered one of wrestling's great promos guys. Bret has some promos I've liked, but even just in size of body of work there Flair is streets ahead. I also like John Cena, I liked Hogan before he turned out to be a racist... and I am as real a fan of wrestling as anyone here, as are you. Fandom is not a point scoring contest. If somebody says Bret is totally embarrassing on the mic, they usually quote one of two interviews, and generally are unfamiliar with interviews outside of that. This wasn't meant to be a long philosophical "what makes one a fan at all?" ponderance, it's clear they aren't a - let's use the word strong then - STRONG fan of Bret Hart, if they think he was an embarrassment on the mic.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jan 22, 2019 17:28:10 GMT -5
I didn't think this forum was a 'this is what a real fan is' kind of place. I can't stand most of Flair's promos and am kinda baffled that a guy with some of the worst enunciation I've ever heard is considered one of wrestling's great promos guys. Bret has some promos I've liked, but even just in size of body of work there Flair is streets ahead. I also like John Cena, I liked Hogan before he turned out to be a racist... and I am as real a fan of wrestling as anyone here, as are you. Fandom is not a point scoring contest. If somebody says Bret is totally embarrassing on the mic, they usually quote one of two interviews, and generally are unfamiliar with interviews outside of that. This wasn't meant to be a long philosophical "what makes one a fan at all?" ponderance, it's clear they aren't a - let's use the word strong then - STRONG fan of Bret Hart, if they think he was an embarrassment on the mic. Or simply put, they just don't like Hart. And that's fine. Fandom gatekeeping is lame.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Jan 22, 2019 17:34:44 GMT -5
Having seen both in their peak years, I have to say that Flair's skill was perhaps overhyped both by the announce teams at the time and by the perceived power he held as leader of the Four Horsemen. That illusion of invincibility ended for me on October 12, 1992. Bret was the right man for the job of carrying the torch for WWE at the time, I think. He was one of the absolute best technicians and storytellers in that ring and his mic work, though subdued, felt more three-dimensional. The promo he gave prior to Summerslam 1993, where it appeared that he was choking up talking about what Lawler had done to humiliate Bret's parents, is a masterpiece in my book. Honourable mention goes to the one he gave in the run-up to his match with Razor Ramon at RR, after Ramon had attacked Owen and via Titantron was threatening the same to Stu. Bret felt safe to the crowd, who was sure of his ability to take on all comers, even up to his encounter with Yokozuna. Fans believed in Bret. I like how you can tell the real fans, they actually pinpoint and quote decent Bret Hart promos, whereas others say "stones were so cold" and mention the wheelchair promo, and use those to justify their thinking that Bret could not talk on the mic and needed a mouthpiece or something. Bret Hart is a phenominal wrestler, even against inferior competition. Embarassing on the mic, and once he left the WWF it became a great promotion WITHOUT him. This is a joke. Case in point You’re right, I’m not a real fan. If I was I’d share all your opinions, right ? His time at the top was relatively brief, especially when you compare it with Flair. And there’s a reason for that. I don’t think Bret needed a mouthpiece. His mic skills were fine for a face in 1992, even 1994 it was hokey and dated pretty soon afte
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
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Post by TGM on Jan 22, 2019 17:38:15 GMT -5
Saying Bret is poor on the mic or not a good character is a ridiculous statement.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Jan 22, 2019 18:30:49 GMT -5
If somebody says Bret is totally embarrassing on the mic, they usually quote one of two interviews, and generally are unfamiliar with interviews outside of that. This wasn't meant to be a long philosophical "what makes one a fan at all?" ponderance, it's clear they aren't a - let's use the word strong then - STRONG fan of Bret Hart, if they think he was an embarrassment on the mic. Or simply put, they just don't like Hart. And that's fine. Fandom gatekeeping is lame. Then he's not a fan of Bret Hart, ergo it doesn't matter if I use the word real to describe his fandom of Bret Hart or not. I'm not saying he is not a real fan of wrestling. I thought that was clear
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 22, 2019 18:49:29 GMT -5
They’re both in my top ten. It depends on my mood. If I want something more melodramatic I’ll watch a Flair match, Bret if I wanna see something more realistic.
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Post by bitteroldman on Jan 22, 2019 18:52:21 GMT -5
Hart's match with Tom Magee got Magee a contract; Vince thought he had the next Hogan and he turned out to be the drizzling sh**s. Probably the greatest carry job ever if you have seen a Magee match.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 22, 2019 19:41:18 GMT -5
His time at the top was relatively brief, especially when you compare it with Flair. And there’s a reason for that. Yup, and it had little to do with Bret. He was a workhorse in a company where Hogan was king and workrate was something that was only valued "down south", and by the time he reached the top the bottom had already fallen out of the business. Had he been down south with Flair, Bret would've very likely reached the top a lot earlier.
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Post by Starshine on Jan 22, 2019 20:05:45 GMT -5
I really like Bret, but I think Flair beats him in just about every category. To quick;y sum it up Bret was never an institution of pro wrestling to the extent Flair was for JCP and their locale of pro wrestling. There was a substantial period of time where JCP/NWA/WCW fans wouldn't accept a substitute to Flair. Bret still struggled to get out under Hogan's shadow when he was at his peak drawing power, but Flair was the shadow for a chunk of the country in his prime.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Jan 22, 2019 20:18:21 GMT -5
His time at the top was relatively brief, especially when you compare it with Flair. And there’s a reason for that. Yup, and it had little to do with Bret. He was a workhorse in a company where Hogan was king and workrate was something that was only valued "down south", and by the time he reached the top the bottom had already fallen out of the business. Had he been down south with Flair, Bret would've very likely reached the top a lot earlier. I don’t think it would have been much easier. 91-92 seemed like a good time for Bret to emerge as a legitimate main event guy. Maybe he would have only advanced earlier in WCW because of their lack of singles wrestlers for so long
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 22, 2019 20:23:13 GMT -5
I really like Bret, but I think Flair beats him in just about every category. To quick;y sum it up Bret was never an institution of pro wrestling to the extent Flair was for JCP and their locale of pro wrestling. There was a substantial period of time where JCP/NWA/WCW fans wouldn't accept a substitute to Flair. Bret still struggled to get out under Hogan's shadow when he was at his peak drawing power, but Flair was the shadow for a chunk of the country in his prime. JCP/NWA/WCW may not have accepted anyone else but Bret was the king of the entire country of Canada and a huge star overseas. I grew up during Bret's time on top so I'm biased but I think he's probably the best wrestler I've ever watched. Everything looked real, nothing looked like it was a cirque du soleil show routine. He never once insulted fans intelligence in a match and I appreciate that a lot. I've watched his matches with Davey at Summerslam 92, Mr. Perfect at Summerslam 91, HBK at WM 12, Austin at WM 13, Owen at WM 10, and so many more again and again and they are always entertaining. I can't say the same for Flair, he was great but to me Bret was the best.
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Post by doguncle on Dec 26, 2019 16:16:35 GMT -5
Bret Hart had advantages Ric never had in that he had a father who was a promoter and brothers and in-laws in the business that he could work out with. Ric did have Verne Gagne as his trainer and Verne, for all his faults, was as good a trainer as Stu Hart when it came to results. I wonder how Bret would work with the likes of a worn-out JYD, past their prime Hogan and Dusty and not quite ready sting, Luger and Nikita Koloff as make them look as good as Flair did? I place Ric Flair second behind Lou Thesz and Bret just behind him, because Ric had a little over two decades 1975-1997 as a top wrestler and was at least decent until his last days in WWE. Bret didn't have quite as long a peak.
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TWERKIN' MAGGLE
Crow T. Robot
Black Lives Matter
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Dec 26, 2019 16:25:42 GMT -5
This thread is like a year old.
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Post by Instant Classic on Dec 26, 2019 16:30:07 GMT -5
I’ve come to appreciate Bret Hart in the past years, Flair is my guy though.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 27, 2019 5:32:21 GMT -5
Ric Flair was the guy Bret Hart beat for his first World Championship and sent him packing not long after.
Bret Hart all the way for me. I hadn't access to any other wrestling beside WWF for a long time and had absolutely no clue who Flair was in 1992.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by XIII on Dec 27, 2019 8:15:46 GMT -5
I’m voting for the Nature Boy. Just an all around complete pro wrestler.
I know that Bret is good, but I’ve never really been into him or his matches.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 27, 2019 9:14:32 GMT -5
Bret, because as amazing a performer as Ric is, the last 10 years or so have just largely been an embarrassment.
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Post by TheMediocreWarrior on Dec 27, 2019 9:46:28 GMT -5
This is a tough question, but I voted Bret.
I tried to think of a hypothetical where I have a time machine and am trying to create an all star roster. I would select Bret Hart before anyone else, because to me he was the all time best good guy wrestler. An excellent in ring tactician that was all about having a great match and being a good competitor. I would want him as a top face before Hogan or even Rock, who I think was a better heel. Some might say that's "boring", but villains usually have bigger personalities in fiction anyway.
With that said, Flair was by far more charismatic.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 27, 2019 9:59:17 GMT -5
Bret Hart had advantages Ric never had in that he had a father who was a promoter and brothers and in-laws in the business that he could work out with. Ric did have Verne Gagne as his trainer and Verne, for all his faults, was as good a trainer as Stu Hart when it came to results. I wonder how Bret would work with the likes of a worn-out JYD, past their prime Hogan and Dusty and not quite ready sting, Luger and Nikita Koloff as make them look as good as Flair did? I place Ric Flair second behind Lou Thesz and Bret just behind him, because Ric had a little over two decades 1975-1997 as a top wrestler and was at least decent until his last days in WWE. Bret didn't have quite as long a peak. It wasn't just Stu who trained these guys and worked with them, though. Bret's true pro wrestling trainers were Tokyo Joe and Kazuo Sakurada (Stu showed him amateur stuff, but left the pro stuff in Bret's case to them.) The true value of Dungeon training was in the access Stu had, to most of the major promotions around the world. His students were sent to all four corners of the globe to hone their skills and develop the styles that were the stock and trade of Stampede Wrestling - Japan, Mexico, Europe (especially Germany), the UK, Puerto Rico, as well as the mainland of the US. He had wrestlers come in from all over the world not only to work, but to expose his sons and other talents to other styles and psychologies. The Dungeon, in many ways, was wrestling's Oxbridge. Bret, Stu's son and star "pupil" was the one from whom many others came, all of them singing the Gaudeamus for that training. When a wrestler says that their biggest influences include _anyone_ that Stu Hart has trained or spawned, that wrestler has saddled fans with a certain expectation of what their moveset is going to be like and what their ambitions are in the craft. Bret has not only lived up to those expectations, but also survived the price to be paid for meeting those expectations. He's one of the lucky ones of his particular cohort. Ric Flair may not have had that advantage, but he had the means to obtain something similar or better. Perhaps it was Flair's time at the top that prevented him from becoming even greater.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Dec 27, 2019 16:35:00 GMT -5
I'm actually shocked at this. Flair was bigger and better in absolutely every single way. He carried a promotion for a decade and became a larger than life character outside the industry even to this day. He's a better worker, FAR FAR FAR better on the mic, tons more charisma and a universal success. Bret Hart is a phenominal wrestler, even against inferior competition. Embarassing on the mic, and once he left the WWF it became a great promotion WITHOUT him. This is a joke. We can't say that WCW was a success with Flair becoming background material once the NWO showed up? And you have probably only heard 3 Bret Hart promos if you straight up think he was embarrassing and needed a mouthpiece. In terms of promos, for me personally it's kind of a draw. Better wrestler = Hart. Tag, tournament, injured, carrying, cage, he could do it all. Better character? Probably flamboyant ott Flair Nature Boy. Whoo!
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