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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Feb 2, 2019 10:33:33 GMT -5
Having a good variety of moves is never a bad thing so long as the wrestler knows how to execute them, and how to use the moves to register with the audience.
A lot of the best and most over workers aren't move machines, because they already know how to use what they have to get the most drama. Plus they're still putting in a ton of physical work on their end taking the moves, selling, etc.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Feb 2, 2019 10:44:26 GMT -5
In NXT there are too many finisher kick outs and too many people throwing V Triggers.
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JuriOwnsYou
Mike the Goon
Let me hear your sweet screams!
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Post by JuriOwnsYou on Feb 2, 2019 10:54:21 GMT -5
I 100% agree.
I remember when I first starting getting into "Indy" wrestling, around the 2005 ROH boom / TNA golden era. Petey Williams was the ONLY guy using the Canadian Destroyer, and it was always a finish. Nobody kicked out of it, and nobody else used it, so it made Petey feel special and the move felt devastating and got a huge reaction for even teasing it.
Fast forward a little over a decade, and you not only have random indy guys using the Destroyer as a transition move to set up the finish, but you have experienced guys like Pentagon and even Rey Mysterio doing running Canadian Destroyers in the middle of the match, to get a 2 count. In today's climate, I honestly can't tell you what the "protected" move is like the Destroyer was back then. Is there a finisher that nobody kicks out of anymore? If there is, it's probably in WWE, as they still try to protect finishes to a certain extent.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Feb 2, 2019 10:56:56 GMT -5
Boy, it’s almost like there’s different kinds of wrestling for different types of fans. Currently though does wrestling based around selling and psychology and not a bunch of moves or on huge spots exist?
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Post by chronocross on Feb 2, 2019 11:02:29 GMT -5
Yeah I can get with that style sometimes, others not so much like I remember the match with Seth vs. Miz at Backlash last year and how there were many times where the match could have ended, just for a kick out. Like Seth's Superplex/Falcon Arrow combo which I think won a match for him vs. Ziggler but that was it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2019 11:02:52 GMT -5
I 100% agree. I remember when I first starting getting into "Indy" wrestling, around the 2005 ROH boom / TNA golden era. Petey Williams was the ONLY guy using the Canadian Destroyer, and it was always a finish. Nobody kicked out of it, and nobody else used it, so it made Petey feel special and the move felt devastating and got a huge reaction for even teasing it. Fast forward a little over a decade, and you not only have random indy guys using the Destroyer as a transition move to set up the finish, but you have experienced guys like Pentagon and even Rey Mysterio doing running Canadian Destroyers in the middle of the match, to get a 2 count. In today's climate, I honestly can't tell you what the "protected" move is like the Destroyer was back then. Is there a finisher that nobody kicks out of anymore? If there is, it's probably in WWE, as they still try to protect finishes to a certain extent. I think Kenny Omega's One Winged Angel is the most protected finisher in wrestling right now. Nobody kicks out of it. What you're saying about the Canadian Destroyer is the same thing that happened with the DDT. It's just the way things evolve. Whether things are changing for better or for worse is up to you, but people in creative fields are always gonna try and innovate.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2019 11:19:06 GMT -5
Boy, it’s almost like there’s different kinds of wrestling for different types of fans. Currently though does wrestling based around selling and psychology and not a bunch of moves or on huge spots exist? I think it does but it's a really tough thing for people to have a consensus on because everyone's lines are different. Off the top of my head I think Okada and Kenny Omega's matches have been really great blends of psychology and modern "workrate heavy" wrestling. Omega vs. Tanahashi this year was really good for this, and it was a really restrained performance from Omega (in a good way). Then there's stuff like Charlotte/Becky from Evolution, I think Juice Robinson is pretty great for old school psychology based storytelling (especially when he was working with a hand injury). I agree with critics who find today's wrestlers overeager, and I think wrestlers do have a natural inclination to do too much, but in spite of that, I think the bright spots in today's wrestlers are really strong. Like the Ciampa/Gargano matches are a great example of guys that probably do too much when they wrestle each other, but the high points (the call backs, the physical/emotional intensity) of their interactions are really cinematic and special on a level that I don't think wrestlers were capable of in the gritty old days. But that's just my opinion, I could present anyone a modern match that I think is superb from a psychology standpoint and anyone could probably rip it apart based on their own sensibilities, when the fact is all wrestling could be dissected and torn apart because pro wrestling is inherently ridiculous.
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Post by celtics543 on Feb 2, 2019 12:30:07 GMT -5
I loved Bret Hart because he had a bunch of moves but he also sold them as moves that killed people. The longer the match the more selling he did. He didn't use flips or come off the top rope and it all looked real. That's what wrestling is missing today, nothing looks real and it's all so contrived to set up.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Feb 2, 2019 12:31:26 GMT -5
It depends on the match and the wrestlers. Psychology and been able to tell a story is most important for wrestlers.
Regal and Foley never had an expansive moveset, but they could tell a great story in the ring my making every move seem important.
The moves used should tell a story. Sometimes hitting a bunch of moves in a match works, often in a fighting underdog match for example where the underdog gets hit with a shit tonne but keeps getting back up to fight or, a David vs Goliath match where David keeps hitting the giant with everything he's got and it's just not enough.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Feb 2, 2019 12:33:15 GMT -5
I 100% agree. I remember when I first starting getting into "Indy" wrestling, around the 2005 ROH boom / TNA golden era. Petey Williams was the ONLY guy using the Canadian Destroyer, and it was always a finish. Nobody kicked out of it, and nobody else used it, so it made Petey feel special and the move felt devastating and got a huge reaction for even teasing it. Fast forward a little over a decade, and you not only have random indy guys using the Destroyer as a transition move to set up the finish, but you have experienced guys like Pentagon and even Rey Mysterio doing running Canadian Destroyers in the middle of the match, to get a 2 count. In today's climate, I honestly can't tell you what the "protected" move is like the Destroyer was back then. Is there a finisher that nobody kicks out of anymore? If there is, it's probably in WWE, as they still try to protect finishes to a certain extent. I hate that. There are certain moves that just should be game enders except for special occasions. Piledrivers, DDTs and the Canadian Destroyer are three of them. I'd also include the powerbomb if done by a big guy--that should be an instant game ender.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2019 12:50:45 GMT -5
I think that's the biggest issue I have with Seth's matches (well, that and his constant badly selling his knee). He usually comes off like he's more trying to get in all his cool moves than to actually win.
That said I'd rather watch it than the alternative of Roman's, "Just do 40 Superman punches and little else," approach.
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Post by 111111 on Feb 3, 2019 3:58:45 GMT -5
]Fast forward a little over a decade, and you not only have random indy guys using the Destroyer as a transition move to set up the finish, but you have experienced guys like Pentagon and even Rey Mysterio doing running Canadian Destroyers in the middle of the match, to get a 2 count. I suppose its like how in the attitude era the DDT became a commonplace move whereas a decade or so earlier it was Jake Roberts finishing move, and same thing happened with the stunner as well. The best way I heard it justified was that the wrestler who originally used the move as a finisher had mastered the move so it was much more devestating whereas the next crop of wrestlers were influenced by the move and all using it but none truly mastered it which is why they weren't using it as a finisher. its cyclical, there are finishers wrestlers are using today that will be commonplace moves a few years down the line.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Feb 3, 2019 4:08:45 GMT -5
The finisher effectiveness talk makes me wonder what will happen as WWE continues to expand and sign a million wrestlers.
Are there enough moves to go around? The rumble ppv had 70+ wrestlers on it alone. Can that many have unique and protected finishers and leave enough for a wrestlers regular move-set. That's without those with multiple finishers.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
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Post by trollrogue on Feb 4, 2019 3:44:41 GMT -5
]Fast forward a little over a decade, and you not only have random indy guys using the Destroyer as a transition move to set up the finish, but you have experienced guys like Pentagon and even Rey Mysterio doing running Canadian Destroyers in the middle of the match, to get a 2 count. I suppose its like how in the attitude era the DDT became a commonplace move whereas a decade or so earlier it was Jake Roberts finishing move, and same thing happened with the stunner as well. The best way I heard it justified was that the wrestler who originally used the move as a finisher had mastered the move so it was much more devestating whereas the next crop of wrestlers were influenced by the move and all using it but none truly mastered it which is why they weren't using it as a finisher. its cyclical, there are finishers wrestlers are using today that will be commonplace moves a few years down the line. Exactly. To get back to OP's topic, the current NXT Champion has used different moves from an elevated DDT onto Gargano to win at TakeOver Chicago, or a TOMBSTONE PILEDRIVER to figuratively kill Aleister Black and steal his NXT Championship on a random episode of NXT (not even a TakeOver) how can you NOT say NXT is the only WWE brand that is keeping kayfabe alive with the Priority of Big Move-Selling. It's simply a different that NXT has than the WWE. NXT crowds are usually smaller and smarkier, so they respond better to repeated false finishes and a series of crazy big moves. But the right big move at the right time is an art form, and for example-- with Halftime Heat's finish-- you knew when Adam Cole wasn't gonna kick out bc that's how the in-ring storyline went despite everybody kicking out of Finishers left/right for a good 15 minutes straight. IDK really what my point was with this comment. I guess that there are different strokes for different folks and if you pay for a TakeOver ticket, you might be a different (cough *millenial* cough) fan than an old-fasioned WWE main traditionalist who may or may not (almost definitely) has kids that are getting into it too. Different markets and such
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 28,610
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Post by 4real on Feb 4, 2019 5:38:03 GMT -5
I said this in another thread but the spamming of the kicks and knees to the face is ridiculous. Selling is there for a reason to make the matches look somewhat realistic. What’s the point of hitting a knee to the freaking face if it’s not sold?
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Feb 4, 2019 6:12:49 GMT -5
This is what exhausted me during the Cruiserweight Classic in 2016. Loved it at first but a few weeks in it was the same no selling, and move spamming matches, with a few exceptions and it just seemed pointless carrying on with it.
I don't need a match full of psychology and a methodical pace, but character, decent story and selling are the foundation of any great match.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Feb 4, 2019 7:06:08 GMT -5
I don't care. I'm here to be entertained, and 2 guys kicking the shit out of each other entertains me.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 4, 2019 15:52:11 GMT -5
I treat NXT like I do NJPW so I don't have as big a problem with the movesets and lack of selling
Main roster is a diff story tho
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Post by Hot Noodle Truck on Feb 4, 2019 15:56:08 GMT -5
Sometimes it bothers me, sometimes it doesn't. Guess it depends on the performers and the match, like the last Takeover. I like Gargano, I like Ricochet but their match was just too ridiculous at points for me to enjoy. The overly choreographed stand off stuff is just played out to me and other stuff takes me out of it completely like Ricochet taking a poison rana on the floor followed by a slingshot DDT and he kicks out. I think NXT in general takes the "strong style/Indy fighting spirit" to a ridiculous level but it's still enjoyable sometimes.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Feb 4, 2019 16:00:38 GMT -5
I 100% agree. I remember when I first starting getting into "Indy" wrestling, around the 2005 ROH boom / TNA golden era. Petey Williams was the ONLY guy using the Canadian Destroyer, and it was always a finish. Nobody kicked out of it, and nobody else used it, so it made Petey feel special and the move felt devastating and got a huge reaction for even teasing it. Fast forward a little over a decade, and you not only have random indy guys using the Destroyer as a transition move to set up the finish, but you have experienced guys like Pentagon and even Rey Mysterio doing running Canadian Destroyers in the middle of the match, to get a 2 count. In today's climate, I honestly can't tell you what the "protected" move is like the Destroyer was back then. Is there a finisher that nobody kicks out of anymore? If there is, it's probably in WWE, as they still try to protect finishes to a certain extent. I think Kenny Omega's One Winged Angel is the most protected finisher in wrestling right now. Nobody kicks out of it. What you're saying about the Canadian Destroyer is the same thing that happened with the DDT. It's just the way things evolve. Whether things are changing for better or for worse is up to you, but people in creative fields are always gonna try and innovate. If he wasn't retired, you could say Santino's Cobra Strike
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