Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
Posts: 9,125
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Post by Fundertaker on Feb 5, 2019 10:13:28 GMT -5
NJPW's still probably going to run roughshod on the rest, but if it helps them with some talent exchanges, inter-promotion feuds, or super shows, then it's a net gain for the fans, and probably going to help get some more eyes on their products. It’s crazy to think that ten years ago NOAH was bigger than New Japan. Actually 10 years ago they already weren't "bigger" than New Japan. If anything they were tied and New Japan completely took over by the end of the year. Which, might I remind you, was when Misawa died. And Inoki-influenced New Japan ended in mid 2006 right after Lesnar left and YUKE's took over.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 5, 2019 10:18:33 GMT -5
NOAH also had the issue of their yakuza ties being exposed; one of those strange idiosyncrasies in Japanese business culture, so many companies do business with the yakuza and everybody knows it, but God forbid those tied actually ever get made public.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Feb 5, 2019 10:58:43 GMT -5
It’s crazy to think that ten years ago NOAH was bigger than New Japan. Actually 10 years ago they already weren't "bigger" than New Japan. If anything they were tied and New Japan completely took over by the end of the year. Which, might I remind you, was when Misawa died. And Inoki-influenced New Japan ended in mid 2006 right after Lesnar left and YUKE's took over. They were bigger, New Japan was still in rebuild mode during that time. It took njpw a couple of more years to take over, remember a year later they still depended on tna for a working relationship...then the Okato bullshit killed it.
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Post by héad.casé on Feb 5, 2019 11:32:00 GMT -5
I think TNA also didn’t do themselves any favours in their relationship with New Japan by booking an IWGP Tag Title change on one of their shows without actually consulting anyone in NJPW first.
I could be wrong but it’s the way I heard it.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
Posts: 9,125
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Post by Fundertaker on Feb 5, 2019 12:03:12 GMT -5
Actually 10 years ago they already weren't "bigger" than New Japan. If anything they were tied and New Japan completely took over by the end of the year. Which, might I remind you, was when Misawa died. And Inoki-influenced New Japan ended in mid 2006 right after Lesnar left and YUKE's took over. They were bigger, New Japan was still in rebuild mode during that time. It took njpw a couple of more years to take over, remember a year later they still depended on tna for a working relationship...then the Okato bullshit killed it. Someone has been reading not so truthful facts I believe. The only thing New Japan depended on TNA for was to get the IWGP 3rd belt. TNA actually depended more on New Japan to book their guys so they could get a cut of their payday. And a year later? 2010? There was like 4 matches involving TNA talent in New Japan. Midcard matches with Beer Money and MCMG. New Japan has over 10 shows in 2009 with more than 5000 people claimed. NOAH had 6. 5 of them were in the Nippon Budokan which they only really filled for the Misawa memorial show. And the other one had the return of Toshiaki Kawada to reform the Holy Demon Army with Akira Taue, in another Misawa memorial show. Sure, New Japan also had the Masahiro Chono career 20th anniversary show, but even excluding that they were having great houses all over the place. NOAH only gets the "tie" from me because they were drawing good houses in the Budokan (which wouldn't last). Which is another reason why NOAH may have been a giant, but their death came rather quick: almost all of their big shows were in Tokyo. Even the Korakuen level shows they easily could put in another province and fill a 4000-5000 seat arena, they put in Korakuen or JCB Hall in Tokyo, so their presence outside the Tokyo region was almost non-existant and would be a big problem for them in the years to come. New Japan, meanwhile, leaned more to non-Tokyo events. Sure, Tokyo Dome, the Sumo Hall shows and G1 finals were in Tokyo, but you had the first round of the NJ Cup claiming 8500 in Aichi and the finals 5400 in Amagasaki. 5500 for Tanahashi/Goto in Fukuoka, which was the first time in years someone put a big show in the city. 5800 in Osaka for the Tanahashi/Nakanishi rematch. Tanahashi/Sugiura in Sapporo claimed 5300. I could go on, but I think I made my point here. Anyway, I was already a fan at the time and followed closely both companies. It was clear that NOAH had a stronghold in Tokyo, but were unable to maintain or get new people to watch them, while New Japan was getting a new batch of dedicated fans from all over the country. The attendances are out there if you wanna research. Let's just say that NOAH went from 4 shows in 2009 claiming over 10000 people to 1 in 2010 to none in 2011. New Japan went from 3 to 2 in 2010, but one of the 3 was an anomaly anyway (Chono's career 20th anniversary) and keeping that number in 2011. And it was on the rise from then on. TL;DR - New Japan might not have had 4 10k+ shows back then, but did over 10 5k+ which offsets that. They were tied. New Japan became the de facto no. 1 next year.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Feb 5, 2019 12:09:03 GMT -5
They were bigger, New Japan was still in rebuild mode during that time. It took njpw a couple of more years to take over, remember a year later they still depended on tna for a working relationship...then the Okato bullshit killed it. Someone has been reading not so truthful facts I believe. The only thing New Japan depended on TNA for was to get the IWGP 3rd belt. TNA actually depended more on New Japan to book their guys so they could get a cut of their payday. And a year later? 2010? There was like 4 matches involving TNA talent in New Japan. Midcard matches with Beer Money and MCMG. New Japan has over 10 shows in 2009 with more than 5000 people claimed. NOAH had 6. 5 of them were in the Nippon Budokan which they only really filled for the Misawa memorial show. And the other one had the return of Toshiaki Kawada to reform the Holy Demon Army with Akira Taue, in another Misawa memorial show. Sure, New Japan also had the Masahiro Chono career 20th anniversary show, but even excluding that they were having great houses all over the place. NOAH only gets the "tie" from me because they were drawing good houses in the Budokan (which wouldn't last). Which is another reason why NOAH may have been a giant, but their death came rather quick: almost all of their big shows were in Tokyo. Even the Korakuen level shows they easily could put in another province and fill a 4000-5000 seat arena, they put in Korakuen or JCB Hall in Tokyo, so their presence outside the Tokyo region was almost non-existant and would be a big problem for them in the years to come. New Japan, meanwhile, leaned more to non-Tokyo events. Sure, Tokyo Dome, the Sumo Hall shows and G1 finals were in Tokyo, but you had the first round of the NJ Cup claiming 8500 in Aichi and the finals 5400 in Amagasaki. 5500 for Tanahashi/Goto in Fukuoka, which was the first time in years someone put a big show in the city. 5800 in Osaka for the Tanahashi/Nakanishi rematch. Tanahashi/Sugiura in Sapporo claimed 5300. I could go on, but I think I made my point here. Anyway, I was already a fan at the time and followed closely both companies. It was clear that NOAH had a stronghold in Tokyo, but were unable to maintain or get new people to watch them, while New Japan was getting a new batch of dedicated fans from all over the country. The attendances are out there if you wanna research. Let's just say that NOAH went from 4 shows in 2009 claiming over 10000 people to 1 in 2010 to none in 2011. New Japan went from 3 to 2 in 2010, but one of the 3 was an anomaly anyway (Chono's career 20th anniversary) and keeping that number in 2011. And it was on the rise from then on. TL;DR - New Japan might not have had 4 10k+ shows back then, but did over 10 5k+ which offsets that. They were tied. New Japan became the de facto no. 1 next year. You listed all of the reasons why New Japan became the number one company, in 2010 not 2009. Yes NOAH was already in the decline before Misawa died but in 2009 they were still number one, barely but they were. New Japan also booked the top tna guys to main event their shows so they in fact depended on them. Kurt Angle was booked to get the IWGP belt from Lesnar and to take it back to New Japan so he would lose it to Tanahashi. Jeff Hardy was also booked in the Tokyo Dome where he embarrassed himself and the company. NOAH was still king in 2009 before they imploded.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
Posts: 9,125
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Post by Fundertaker on Feb 5, 2019 12:44:14 GMT -5
Someone has been reading not so truthful facts I believe. The only thing New Japan depended on TNA for was to get the IWGP 3rd belt. TNA actually depended more on New Japan to book their guys so they could get a cut of their payday. And a year later? 2010? There was like 4 matches involving TNA talent in New Japan. Midcard matches with Beer Money and MCMG. New Japan has over 10 shows in 2009 with more than 5000 people claimed. NOAH had 6. 5 of them were in the Nippon Budokan which they only really filled for the Misawa memorial show. And the other one had the return of Toshiaki Kawada to reform the Holy Demon Army with Akira Taue, in another Misawa memorial show. Sure, New Japan also had the Masahiro Chono career 20th anniversary show, but even excluding that they were having great houses all over the place. NOAH only gets the "tie" from me because they were drawing good houses in the Budokan (which wouldn't last). Which is another reason why NOAH may have been a giant, but their death came rather quick: almost all of their big shows were in Tokyo. Even the Korakuen level shows they easily could put in another province and fill a 4000-5000 seat arena, they put in Korakuen or JCB Hall in Tokyo, so their presence outside the Tokyo region was almost non-existant and would be a big problem for them in the years to come. New Japan, meanwhile, leaned more to non-Tokyo events. Sure, Tokyo Dome, the Sumo Hall shows and G1 finals were in Tokyo, but you had the first round of the NJ Cup claiming 8500 in Aichi and the finals 5400 in Amagasaki. 5500 for Tanahashi/Goto in Fukuoka, which was the first time in years someone put a big show in the city. 5800 in Osaka for the Tanahashi/Nakanishi rematch. Tanahashi/Sugiura in Sapporo claimed 5300. I could go on, but I think I made my point here. Anyway, I was already a fan at the time and followed closely both companies. It was clear that NOAH had a stronghold in Tokyo, but were unable to maintain or get new people to watch them, while New Japan was getting a new batch of dedicated fans from all over the country. The attendances are out there if you wanna research. Let's just say that NOAH went from 4 shows in 2009 claiming over 10000 people to 1 in 2010 to none in 2011. New Japan went from 3 to 2 in 2010, but one of the 3 was an anomaly anyway (Chono's career 20th anniversary) and keeping that number in 2011. And it was on the rise from then on. TL;DR - New Japan might not have had 4 10k+ shows back then, but did over 10 5k+ which offsets that. They were tied. New Japan became the de facto no. 1 next year. You listed all of the reasons why New Japan became the number one company, in 2010 not 2009. Yes NOAH was already in the decline before Misawa died but in 2009 they were still number one, barely but they were. New Japan also booked the top tna guys to main event their shows so they in fact depended on them. Kurt Angle was booked to get the IWGP belt from Lesnar and to take it back to New Japan so he would lose it to Tanahashi. Jeff Hardy was also booked in the Tokyo Dome where he embarrassed himself and the company. NOAH was still king in 2009 before they imploded. OK then, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on your first paragraph, if all the data didn't convince you. But the second one is simply not true. For one, Angle was booked to win the IWGP belt yes, but he lost it to Nakamura, not Tanahashi. And that happened in 2008. In 2009 was against Tanahashi, yes, but that show had a way better undercard and lower claimed attendance. After that, no TNA main-events. In fact, you could argue that Angle got the 3 "main-event matches" TNA had in their relationship with New Japan (against Nagata, Nakamura and Tanahashi). So you had 1 (I repeat: ONE) main-event with TNA talent and a few scattered tag title matches with Team 3D and one appearence each by Beer Money and MCMG. Totally depended on those TNA guys. Yes, Jeff was booked to 1 show and was high off his ass. It was also the 4th last match on a WK against an up and coming Naito that was trying to break out of the midcard. Clearly not a main-event and was barely featured at the time, even below some of the matches that happened lower on the card like Ibushi/Devitt. Oh, and that was in 2011. And after that show you had Brian Kendrick randomly showing up in a 6 man tag tournament amd that was it for the year. Completely depended on TNA.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Feb 5, 2019 13:46:10 GMT -5
You listed all of the reasons why New Japan became the number one company, in 2010 not 2009. Yes NOAH was already in the decline before Misawa died but in 2009 they were still number one, barely but they were. New Japan also booked the top tna guys to main event their shows so they in fact depended on them. Kurt Angle was booked to get the IWGP belt from Lesnar and to take it back to New Japan so he would lose it to Tanahashi. Jeff Hardy was also booked in the Tokyo Dome where he embarrassed himself and the company. NOAH was still king in 2009 before they imploded. OK then, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on your first paragraph, if all the data didn't convince you. But the second one is simply not true. For one, Angle was booked to win the IWGP belt yes, but he lost it to Nakamura, not Tanahashi. And that happened in 2008. In 2009 was against Tanahashi, yes, but that show had a way better undercard and lower claimed attendance. After that, no TNA main-events. In fact, you could argue that Angle got the 3 "main-event matches" TNA had in their relationship with New Japan (against Nagata, Nakamura and Tanahashi). So you had 1 (I repeat: ONE) main-event with TNA talent and a few scattered tag title matches with Team 3D and one appearence each by Beer Money and MCMG. Totally depended on those TNA guys. Yes, Jeff was booked to 1 show and was high off his ass. It was also the 4th last match on a WK against an up and coming Naito that was trying to break out of the midcard. Clearly not a main-event and was barely featured at the time, even below some of the matches that happened lower on the card like Ibushi/Devitt. Oh, and that was in 2011. And after that show you had Brian Kendrick randomly showing up in a 6 man tag tournament amd that was it for the year. Completely depended on TNA. Reading again your information, you’re right the NJPW ascension began a year earlier than I thought
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,956
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Post by lucas_lee on Feb 5, 2019 21:33:50 GMT -5
NOAH was my favorite company from last year, with this alliance they can do even better
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Post by corndog on Feb 6, 2019 11:31:47 GMT -5
All Japan already is working with Big Japan and seems to have something going on with Korean fed LAND'S END as well. So it is obviously, they are willing to work with other promotions. Still not sure about NOAH, Marufuji worked last year's Champion Carnival, but the new owners have a "seclusion policy". Mutoh doesn't sound too confident either. This is an article with interviews from all the parties here, while the translation is rough, I think you can get an idea from it. www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/prores/mens_prores/1269532/
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
Posts: 9,125
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Post by Fundertaker on Feb 6, 2019 12:55:08 GMT -5
Pro Wrestling LAND'S END is Japanese. Ryouji Sai of ZERO1's fame operates it out of Tokyo. Yes, they've made a couple of shows in South Korea and have a Korean champion, but it is a Japanese fed.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Feb 6, 2019 15:14:37 GMT -5
If it means possible matches between Miyahara and Katsuhiko Nakajima in his current heel incarnation, sign me up.
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Post by corndog on Feb 6, 2019 22:41:01 GMT -5
Pro Wrestling LAND'S END is Japanese. Ryouji Sai of ZERO1's fame operates it out of Tokyo. Yes, they've made a couple of shows in South Korea and have a Korean champion, but it is a Japanese fed. My bad, from what I read on the fed, thought it was Korean.
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Mozenrath
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Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,920
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 7, 2019 3:06:17 GMT -5
Pro Wrestling LAND'S END is Japanese. Ryouji Sai of ZERO1's fame operates it out of Tokyo. Yes, they've made a couple of shows in South Korea and have a Korean champion, but it is a Japanese fed. My bad, from what I read on the fed, thought it was Korean. I couldn't help but read this exchange in the same tone as the "It's Japanese." "How do you know?" "Because I bought it in Japan." exchange.
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Post by corndog on Feb 9, 2019 12:59:25 GMT -5
Seiki Yoshioka is currently working the Jr. Battle of Glory tournament in All Japan, so it looks like there is a good chance Wrestle-1 is on board. Kotaro Suzuki is in the tournament as well and was very recently GHC Jr. Heavyweight champion, but he is still a freelancer.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Feb 19, 2019 19:37:15 GMT -5
Didn't know where to put it, but one ace to another:
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Post by corndog on Feb 19, 2019 22:14:51 GMT -5
Didn't know where to put it, but one ace to another: I really need to find a way to watch this show!
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Post by AwamoriRock on Feb 19, 2019 22:36:24 GMT -5
Didn't know where to put it, but one ace to another: I really need to find a way to watch this show! If you go to that Twitter account directly, he has it up on google drive.
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Post by corndog on Feb 20, 2019 12:12:07 GMT -5
I really need to find a way to watch this show! If you go to that Twitter account directly, he has it up on google drive. I watched some of the show, I enjoyed what I saw so far. I have no idea how Atsushi Onita still does this crazy crap and Jinsei Shinzaki is still pretty damn good.
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Post by corndog on Feb 21, 2019 13:04:45 GMT -5
Every match from the Giant Baba 20th anniversary memorial featuring New Japan wrestlers is on New Japan World now. There is some pretty good stuff, the main event was a good one.
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