Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,332
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jun 22, 2019 16:43:22 GMT -5
TNA was never the second biggest company in the world. CMLL and NJPW were always bigger. TNA wasn't even the second biggest company in NA. Since CMLL exists. I don’t know about cmll but New Japan almost croaked in the early to mid 2000s. TNA was definitely bigger than them at one point. What are the criteria you are using to judge the size? Cause NJPW was drawing bigger crowds and more than likely making more money than TNA. CMLL can be argued to be the biggest wrestling company in the world.They make huge profits each year and draw big crowds to most shows.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 22, 2019 17:11:00 GMT -5
I don’t know about cmll but New Japan almost croaked in the early to mid 2000s. TNA was definitely bigger than them at one point. What are the criteria you are using to judge the size? Cause NJPW was drawing bigger crowds and more than likely making more money than TNA. CMLL can be argued to be the biggest wrestling company in the world.They make huge profits each year and draw big crowds to most shows. The shows njpw was putting on before Tanahashi saved them were embarrassing and they didn’t raise a dime during those years. For a time NOAH kicker their asses and was the number one promotion. TNA f***ed themselves up by not running more shows outside universal studios when they were hot cause they would’ve drawn good crowds.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,332
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jun 22, 2019 18:17:51 GMT -5
What are the criteria you are using to judge the size? Cause NJPW was drawing bigger crowds and more than likely making more money than TNA. CMLL can be argued to be the biggest wrestling company in the world.They make huge profits each year and draw big crowds to most shows. The shows njpw was putting on before Tanahashi saved them were embarrassing and they didn’t raise a dime during those years. For a time NOAH kicker their asses and was the number one promotion. TNA f***ed themselves up by not running more shows outside universal studios when they were hot cause they would’ve drawn good crowds. I forget NOAH had a kinda current peak. Hell NOAH was bigger than TNA. So TNA worldwide back then was what number 5? NA wise maybe #3. Not sure how ROH was doing back then. And back then CZW wasn't making big money and IWA MS Was always close to going under. TNA f***ed themselves many ways. For example. From like 2008 or so until at least 2012 the weekend of Coast Con in Biloxi,which is held in the convention center behind the arena Beach Blast 93 was held at,TNA would run a house show. Now Biloxi is covered with billboards and other advertising. I never saw any tv ads,no radio ads.Saw one billboard. THe only reason I knew about the shows was once you came into the lot with the arena they had on the sign there "TNA Impact tour/Coast COn". TNA just never advertised much and/or marketed themselves to a fandom that would have went to shows.Lots of people going to Coast Con,it's a sci fi/comic/fantasy con,love wrestling. But since TNA barely advertised the show people that would have went,since it was a 5 minute walk from the convention center,didnt know about the show.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 22, 2019 22:03:47 GMT -5
The shows njpw was putting on before Tanahashi saved them were embarrassing and they didn’t raise a dime during those years. For a time NOAH kicker their asses and was the number one promotion. TNA f***ed themselves up by not running more shows outside universal studios when they were hot cause they would’ve drawn good crowds. I forget NOAH had a kinda current peak. Hell NOAH was bigger than TNA. So TNA worldwide back then was what number 5? NA wise maybe #3. Not sure how ROH was doing back then. And back then CZW wasn't making big money and IWA MS Was always close to going under. TNA f***ed themselves many ways. For example. From like 2008 or so until at least 2012 the weekend of Coast Con in Biloxi,which is held in the convention center behind the arena Beach Blast 93 was held at,TNA would run a house show. Now Biloxi is covered with billboards and other advertising. I never saw any tv ads,no radio ads.Saw one billboard. THe only reason I knew about the shows was once you came into the lot with the arena they had on the sign there "TNA Impact tour/Coast COn". TNA just never advertised much and/or marketed themselves to a fandom that would have went to shows.Lots of people going to Coast Con,it's a sci fi/comic/fantasy con,love wrestling. But since TNA barely advertised the show people that would have went,since it was a 5 minute walk from the convention center,didnt know about the show. ROH apparently wasn’t making much money in mid 2000s, Cary Silkin told Cornette that while the shows were great, they weren’t bringing much money. Now regarding CZW, Zandig said in a shoot that he was only breaking even but not making much money. It’s crazy, tna was owned by a person with an advertisement degree in Dixie Carter but their attempts were laughable.
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Post by ianriccaboni on Jun 23, 2019 7:00:43 GMT -5
I say this with peace and love as a coda to my last comment: I think it is extremely difficult to tell as a fan whether or not a promotion, especially one that markets themselves well, whether or not a company is financially viable or profitable.
Despite being on cable, I don't think TNA during the specific period you're speaking of was profitable and I believe it ran at a loss. I think you'd be surprised to see over time and at different time periods which promotions were profitable. Down houses can be weathered with smart planning, TV deals, and good licensing.
With that being said, speaking only from my own experience, these last few years have shattered a previous pay scale that existed probably since the inception of TNA. And if the previous pay scale was any indication, it does not surprise me one iota that those TNA wrestlers chose to work day jobs.
If you think about it in a very realistic way, especially once TV moved to Orlando, those tapings were once every three weeks or at it's most busy twice a month. If you get $500 for one night, which is pretty good for an independent wrestler, that is only $12k per year, which was at or below the poverty line.
The trickiest part for everyone involved I'd imagine would be keeping the day job since the tapings were frequently on Mondays. But if you could weather that, you had all 52 weekends to make money as a wrestler. It probably worked out very well for some of the higher paid stars that promoters would fly in to work independent shots but probably not as well once you hit the middle of the pack.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2019 10:48:30 GMT -5
I say this with peace and love as a coda to my last comment: I think it is extremely difficult to tell as a fan whether or not a promotion, especially one that markets themselves well, whether or not a company is financially viable or profitable. Despite being on cable, I don't think TNA during the specific period you're speaking of was profitable and I believe it ran at a loss. I think you'd be surprised to see over time and at different time periods which promotions were profitable. Down houses can be weathered with smart planning, TV deals, and good licensing. With that being said, speaking only from my own experience, these last few years have shattered a previous pay scale that existed probably since the inception of TNA. And if the previous pay scale was any indication, it does not surprise me one iota that those TNA wrestlers chose to work day jobs. If you think about it in a very realistic way, especially once TV moved to Orlando, those tapings were once every three weeks or at it's most busy twice a month. If you get $500 for one night, which is pretty good for an independent wrestler, that is only $12k per year, which was at or below the poverty line. The trickiest part for everyone involved I'd imagine would be keeping the day job since the tapings were frequently on Mondays. But if you could weather that, you had all 52 weekends to make money as a wrestler. It probably worked out very well for some of the higher paid stars that promoters would fly in to work independent shots but probably not as well once you hit the middle of the pack. Well said. The last thing they needed to do was "spend more money." 2nd biggest promotion in the country or not, the fact is, they were already spending more than was coming in, which was foolish. Just because a company is the 2nd biggest in the country doesn't mean everyone should be paid enough to not need another source of income. The 2nd biggest company is CONSIDERABLY smaller than the 1st. But yeah, some people think that Taylor Wilde deserved to be paid over $75,000 a year to work a couple matches per month, because the writers decided she should hold a fake wrestling championship, and that meant she should be paid more than the other essentially independent wrestlers who were also wrestling 2 matches that month. Sorry, I can't fault the unprofitable company for not paying a "living wage" to everybody when they weren't profitable. In a perfect world, the indie level wrestlers who had a couple of matches at a sound stage in Orlando should be paid enough money that month to be able to buy all food, pay all bills, pay rent, insurance, etc. and not need any other source of income. But in reality, it simply wasn't the case. The smart ones got other jobs or took a lot of side bookings. Yes, Dixie Carter could've mandated that the Taylor Wildes of the world be paid enough to not need other jobs, and pay the established guys like Sting less, but she chose not to. Because Sting was Sting. And Taylor Wilde... wasn't.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jun 28, 2019 13:17:41 GMT -5
Disclaimer: This is an unbiased observation, but...
KM was said to be an Uber/cab driver. But since this was some Sabu Twitter insanity, I doubt it.
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Post by northernmonkey on Jun 28, 2019 16:48:32 GMT -5
Dolph: I would have loved a job at the sunglasses stand but I was stuck cleaning Kerwin's golf clubs. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME!
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 28, 2019 18:52:20 GMT -5
What made TNA such a strange situation in those years is that you had most of the talent, as far as we could tell, being paid by the promotion, but the top paid guys who largely came in from WWE or WCW were usually paid by SpikeTV itself (e.g. Angle, Sting, etc.).
What was unfortunate there was that the big names being brought in should've raised revenues/profits to the level where everyone could be paid at a higher level; however, even once it was clear those names weren't going to move the needle, as best as I know TNA back then still seemed to keep the same business structure going. It was good that guys like AJ, Joe, etc. ended up getting paid well, but it would've been nice to see their business plans change to create a situation where more wealth might've been spread around, despite Panda Energy's limited investments.
More than that, what also hurt things was TNA maintaining control over the indie bookings a lot of their talent could take, which meant them often taking a percentage off the top while also limited where a wrestler could work.
I remember thinking back then that I would cut TNA a little slack for wages not being as high due to their standing as the lesser known/smaller/etc. company, but there were certainly some practices that, again 100% from the outside looking in as a fan, didn't sit well after awhile.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2019 15:09:25 GMT -5
TNA lost several million dollars each year during the Carter regime. If there was ever a brief period where they "turned a profit," it was for that particular month's revenue compared to expenses, but they certainly weren't ever "profitable" in the sense that they made back all those millions of dollars they lost during previous years of operation. To ever say that a company like that was the "#2 promotion" when there are dozens of mom and pop independent promotions that have always paid their bills, and turned a small profit every single year they've been in operation. In my mind, those indies turning even a $300 profit each month are a more successful business than TNA ever was. Because they didn't lose money. That's the goal of running a business, right? TNA should be considered, quite possibly, the lowest on the list of "successful promotions," just based on the fact that they lost more money than probably hundreds of other companies, tiny indies, etc. all over the world. If an indie lost $100,000 a year, they'd still be higher on the list of promotions than TNA.
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Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,710
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Post by Glitch on Jun 29, 2019 18:57:22 GMT -5
Basically, if you can't pay your workers adequately, don't run a wrestling company. Tna wanted them on exclusive contracts where they couldn't wrestle outside unless they took a big cut in their indie pay(if tna even let them take the gig). You can't have it both ways. If you dont care enough to pay them enough to live off, then you have no right to tie them down to your company. Bottom line, Dixie is an exploitative idiot who lives in her own bubble that's divorced from reality. I don't know how anybody can defend this.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Jun 29, 2019 19:19:51 GMT -5
It’s unfortunate but there’s no shame in it. Pursuing an outsider art with no guarantee of reimbursement is somehat noble in of itself. Harrison Ford was a carpenter until Star Wars made him famous, Ghostmane quit a job at NASA (!!!) to rap full time, and Hulk Hogan was obviously the bassist for Metallica until wrestling took off.
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brentreznor
AC Slater
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Posts: 132
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Post by brentreznor on Jun 30, 2019 9:34:05 GMT -5
TNA being the "2nd biggest wrestling company" doesn't really mean anything. The CFL is the 2nd biggest football league and most their players have second jobs. If you're a basketball player who's not in the NBA, you're not making any money.
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