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Post by eJm on Aug 19, 2019 7:59:03 GMT -5
I desperately want to see what a 2019 Jim Cornette-booked wrestling show would look like. What kinda roster would he even have to start with? Pretending he could have whoever he wants, who out there does he actually like right now besides the Revival? Matt Morgan: Jim, I'm deputy mayor now, I retired from wrestling years ago, STOP CALLING!
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,065
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Aug 19, 2019 9:26:48 GMT -5
I desperately want to see what a 2019 Jim Cornette-booked wrestling show would look like. What kinda roster would he even have to start with? Pretending he could have whoever he wants, who out there does he actually like right now besides the Revival? You know that somehow the Rock 'n Roll Express would be there.
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Post by eJm on Aug 19, 2019 10:11:59 GMT -5
What kinda roster would he even have to start with? Pretending he could have whoever he wants, who out there does he actually like right now besides the Revival? You know that somehow the Rock 'n Roll Express would be there. Midnight Express vs. Rock 'n Roll Express. One. Last. Time.
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Aug 19, 2019 13:18:18 GMT -5
What kinda roster would he even have to start with? Pretending he could have whoever he wants, who out there does he actually like right now besides the Revival? You know that somehow the Rock 'n Roll Express would be there. Well, the Rock n' Roll Express DID just have a match at Beyond Wrestling's Americanrana '19 event. It wasn't great.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 15:24:10 GMT -5
Okay, so first off I'm speaking to the Cornette mindset at large rather than someone specifically here, given petef3 specifically stated that they're fine with places like Chikara existing and that isn't the problem for them. The thing that gets me in all of the people talking about how wrestling must be done a certain way is that it's basically trying to handcuff an entire medium. I mean, sure, I get it on a smaller scale - something like WWE has its general tone pretty set at this point. Mostly tries to pass itself off as a weird sports / soap opera mish-mash where every now and then there's outright magic, but it's usually portrayed in a dark and spooky, mysterious way, so Hornswoggle painting a tunnel on a wall like Looney Tunes is just too far past the point of absurdity. I get it. But a lot of the people making this complaint (again, I'm speaking directly toward a broad viewpoint) seem to think every wrestling company everywhere has to be one specific thing and that anyone not doing that is reflecting poorly on the entire business which is just insane to me. Yes, people are perfectly allowed to like and dislike whatever - I think the Librarians and some of their awkward attempts to shout out to memes aside AEW's comedy largely works but if someone doesn't like Nakazawa, I get it - but the people who insist that these sorts of acts are an embarrassment to the industry at large just comes off like a bunch of elitist gatekeeping to me. So let's talk about the comic Tarot: Witch of the Black Rose. You know, "You have to get out of here, your vagina is haunted!", that one. It's one thing to dislike it, based on what I know about it most people who've actually read it probably do, but the whole, "Joey Ryan is an embarrassment and it's disgusting that people are giving him money to ruin the industry!" viewpoint to me just registers like if rather than just making fun of the stupid vagina line, people were looking at that comic and complaining that it's ruining the entire comics industry because comic books are supposed to be about wholesome clean cut superheroes fighting crime in the 1940s, with no room at all for allegedly sexy witches with horrifically shaped spines showing their boobs constantly. Mediums change and evolve, and even if something maybe doesn't work very well in a specific format, there's not any harm in trying and maybe it'll find a fanbase with someone or other anyway. Here's a less, "I spend the entire time talking about it shitting on it," example, visual novels. They and things like them have pretty much been a thing in some form as long as video games themselves have, but even then a ton of people constantly bash the things and talk about how they aren't real games and that's just insane to me. Steins;Gate has absolutely nothing in the way of actually playing it - there are no puzzles, there are no minigames, there is no walking around. You listen to conversations, fiddle with your phone, and every few hours make a choice that affects where the plot goes. But it isn't invalid as a game for that, nor could it work in any other medium - the closest thing would be a choose your own adventure novel but the sheer length of the narrative and its reliance on using (albeit pretty limited) pictures to communicate events while the vast majority of the actual text is dialogue would render it completely impossible to actually make it function as one. Same thing for someone like an Orange Cassidy, him standing around with his hands in his pockets lazily kicking people in the shin is pretty far removed from the idea of what wrestling is "supposed to be", but it's not like you could just transplant this character to an anime and have him work exactly the same without alteration because it's an idea that requires the framework of wrestling to function. What I wish Jim Cornette would understand is that kayfabe is dead and it's not coming back. With that in mind, you have to accept that not everyone can get by on old school blood n' guts 'rasslin anymore. My 2 favorite promotions at the moment are Lucha Underground and New Japan. They're radically different. One is zany comic book style booking, the other is played as close to a legit sport and competition as humanly possible. As crazy as this may sound, it's possible to like both. I'm smart enough to know that New Japan is still a work even though they do their damndest to make it seem like a real fight at times, same as I'm smart enough to know that Matanza didn't REALLY eat Rey Mysterio Jr. It doesn't take away my enjoyment from either product. For that matter, while I like Cornette for the most part, he's a huge fan of The Undertaker as a gimmick. How in the hell do you balance "Wrestling is goofball outlaw mudshow bullshit now" with liking an undead mortician? I'm saying this as someone who's favorite wrestler of all time is The Undertaker, but c'mon. You can't have it both ways.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Aug 19, 2019 15:40:08 GMT -5
Also, just in general, can we put a moratorium on using the phrases "outlaw" and "mudshow"? Like, you're not cool, you don't look like a "grizzled old school defender", you just sound like a parrot.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 19, 2019 15:54:19 GMT -5
I appreciate how NJPW passes itself off as a legit sport. But they also have a guy who calls himself "EVIL" and goes out to the ring with a glowy scythe sometimes EVIL cult members. And Kushida had mini-Kushida. Taichi dresses up like Phantom of the Opera and sings his own entrance theme to the ring. And Daryl and Yano exist. So even they go into the silly stuff and it complements everything else going on.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Aug 19, 2019 15:59:46 GMT -5
I appreciate how NJPW passes itself off as a legit sport. But they also have a guy who calls himself "EVIL" and goes out to the ring with a glowy scythe sometimes EVIL cult members. And Kushida had mini-Kushida. Taichi dresses up like Phantom of the Opera and sings his own entrance theme to the ring. And Daryl and Yano exist. So even they go into the silly stuff and it complements everything else going on. Like, that's one thing about NJPW that baffles me, in a positive way. People legitimately go into the G1, the biggest tournament of the wrestling year, GENUINELY going "Man, I wonder what Yano's gonna do this year?", and it's almost always great.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 19, 2019 16:02:00 GMT -5
Yano is the Dan Hibiki of New Japan, and I mean that in the most endearing way.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Aug 19, 2019 17:22:32 GMT -5
I still want a specific citation showing that Jim Cornette has ever come out against gimmicks or theatricality in wrestling. I don't know that he's ever said such a thing, nor have most of the people who aren't crazy about Orange Cassidy.
Cornette came around on Luchasaurus very quickly and now praises him and Jungle Boy to the heavens, precisely *because* they weren't surrounded by other goofy shit like they were in the inaugural battle royal.
Of course, being in favor of certain gimmicks or some gimmicks or limited gimmicks doesn't automatically mean "anything goes," or at least it shouldn't. EVIL and Taichi and Yano are ramped-up personalities with theatrical looks, but when the bell rings they're pretty much all business (yes, Yano, too--when he's in there, he's in there to win, which is precisely why his comedy usually works).
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Aug 23, 2019 5:02:32 GMT -5
So, I ordered one of those shirts from Orange Cassidy's website with Orange Cassidy wearing the shirt with Orange Cassidy on it. I have to give the guy props for actually shipping the shirt in an orange envelope. I didn't even know you could get them in bright orange until today.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,065
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Aug 23, 2019 6:18:49 GMT -5
I still want a specific citation showing that Jim Cornette has ever come out against gimmicks or theatricality in wrestling. I don't know that he's ever said such a thing, nor have most of the people who aren't crazy about Orange Cassidy. Cornette came around on Luchasaurus very quickly and now praises him and Jungle Boy to the heavens, precisely *because* they weren't surrounded by other goofy shit like they were in the inaugural battle royal. Of course, being in favor of certain gimmicks or some gimmicks or limited gimmicks doesn't automatically mean "anything goes," or at least it shouldn't. EVIL and Taichi and Yano are ramped-up personalities with theatrical looks, but when the bell rings they're pretty much all business (yes, Yano, too--when he's in there, he's in there to win, which is precisely why his comedy usually works). While I feel like yes, there IS a huge difference between Yano's schtick and people having to sell Orange Cassidy's slow-mo offense as if it's legitimate, there's no winning argument against that gimmick here.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 23, 2019 7:17:31 GMT -5
I still want a specific citation showing that Jim Cornette has ever come out against gimmicks or theatricality in wrestling. I don't know that he's ever said such a thing, nor have most of the people who aren't crazy about Orange Cassidy. Cornette came around on Luchasaurus very quickly and now praises him and Jungle Boy to the heavens, precisely *because* they weren't surrounded by other goofy shit like they were in the inaugural battle royal. Of course, being in favor of certain gimmicks or some gimmicks or limited gimmicks doesn't automatically mean "anything goes," or at least it shouldn't. EVIL and Taichi and Yano are ramped-up personalities with theatrical looks, but when the bell rings they're pretty much all business (yes, Yano, too--when he's in there, he's in there to win, which is precisely why his comedy usually works). While I feel like yes, there IS a huge difference between Yano's schtick and people having to sell Orange Cassidy's slow-mo offense as if it's legitimate, there's no winning argument against that gimmick here. Ti be fair of most matches ive seen Cassidy's offense when hes being slow is not played up as serious. There are obvious comedy matches like against Colt and Jervis where they play along but for the most part they slow offense just makes his opponent mad
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Post by Malibu Albino on Aug 23, 2019 9:40:41 GMT -5
Yeah even if we're talking about his appearance at Double or Nothing. He does his slo-mo offense on Dreamer and Tommy just sort of laughs it off.
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