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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Aug 12, 2019 20:46:43 GMT -5
Wrestling might be the only medium or genre where there is so strong a sense that the whole thing should be limited and frozen in amber under a specific perception of 'the way it used to be' and 'what people were doing with it thirty years ago'.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Aug 12, 2019 20:49:59 GMT -5
Wrestling might be the only medium or genre where there is so strong a sense that the whole thing should be limited and frozen in amber under a specific perception of 'the way it used to be' and 'what people were doing with it thirty years ago'. You've never encountered any other medium or genre anywhere, then. It happens in real sports, sitcoms, movies, other TV shows, the news...everything. Of course, thirty years ago wrestling was far more popular and money-making than it is today, and more popular and lucrative still 10-15 years before that.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Aug 12, 2019 20:58:44 GMT -5
Wrestling might be the only medium or genre where there is so strong a sense that the whole thing should be limited and frozen in amber under a specific perception of 'the way it used to be' and 'what people were doing with it thirty years ago'. You've never encountered any other medium or genre anywhere, then. It happens in real sports, sitcoms, movies, other TV shows, the news...everything. Of course, thirty years ago wrestling was far more popular and money-making than it is today, and more popular and lucrative still 10-15 years before that. Genres grow and advance, they change with the times and find new things and new angles to play on. It's how that's always been. If someone in a fantasy movie conversation complains that The Princess Bride was kiddie bullshit they get looked at like a fun-hating weirdo. If someone complains GoT is 'too dark' for them that's a general statement on liking their fantasy lighter. Nobody says "We need shit to go back to being f***ing Hawk the Slayer, that was the good stuff and fantasy has been all downhill ever since". But in wrestling, the idea of comedy and fun being bad and bad for the business in spite of every general indication the fans like it and acts doing it find success on the indies is a mainstream stance, and the idea that we shouldn't be any further along than we were in the territory days is seen as a strong position. Tell someone that Batman Forever was the best superhero movies ever got and that shared universes are a stupid gimmick to cover up for the fact they can't go back to the magic of getting Seal to do the theme song and you'll sound like a lunatic. I'm not talking about nostalgia I'm talking about the idea that wreslting needs to pretend it's in the past and can't ever grow past it.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Aug 12, 2019 21:10:25 GMT -5
You've never encountered any other medium or genre anywhere, then. It happens in real sports, sitcoms, movies, other TV shows, the news...everything. Of course, thirty years ago wrestling was far more popular and money-making than it is today, and more popular and lucrative still 10-15 years before that. Genres grow and advance, they change with the times and find new things and new angles to play on. It's how that's always been. If someone in a fantasy movie conversation complains that The Princess Bride was kiddie bullshit they get looked at like a fun-hating weirdo. If someone complains GoT is 'too dark' for them that's a general statement on liking their fantasy lighter. Nobody says "We need shit to go back to being f***ing Hawk the Slayer, that was the good stuff and fantasy has been all downhill ever since". But in wrestling, the idea of comedy and fun being bad and bad for the business in spite of every general indication the fans like it and acts doing it find success on the indies is a mainstream stance, and the idea that we shouldn't be any further along than we were in the territory days is seen as a strong position. Tell someone that Batman Forever was the best superhero movies ever got and that shared universes are a stupid gimmick to cover up for the fact they can't go back to the magic of getting Seal to do the theme song and you'll sound like a lunatic. I'm not talking about nostalgia I'm talking about the idea that wreslting needs to pretend it's in the past and can't ever grow past it. I keep saying this about your posts man, but I wish I could like this shit 10 times.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Aug 12, 2019 21:11:14 GMT -5
Genres grow and advance, they change with the times and find new things and new angles to play on. It's how that's always been. If someone in a fantasy movie conversation complains that The Princess Bride was kiddie bullshit they get looked at like a fun-hating weirdo. If someone complains GoT is 'too dark' for them that's a general statement on liking their fantasy lighter. Nobody says "We need shit to go back to being f***ing Hawk the Slayer, that was the good stuff and fantasy has been all downhill ever since". But in wrestling, the idea of comedy and fun being bad and bad for the business in spite of every general indication the fans like it and acts doing it find success on the indies is a mainstream stance, and the idea that we shouldn't be any further along than we were in the territory days is seen as a strong position. Tell someone that Batman Forever was the best superhero movies ever got and that shared universes are a stupid gimmick to cover up for the fact they can't go back to the magic of getting Seal to do the theme song and you'll sound like a lunatic. I'm not talking about nostalgia I'm talking about the idea that wreslting needs to pretend it's in the past and can't ever grow past it. I keep saying this about your posts man, but I wish I could like this shit 10 times. It's the burn on Hawk the Slayer isn't it?
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Post by One-Armed Drummer of Defrebel on Aug 12, 2019 21:12:18 GMT -5
It's like they're going out of their way to sign every indy sideshow goofy wrestler they can. It's like they're going out of their way to sign successful acts who draw money. People equate "would this draw" way too hard with "would this draw in WWE" and I'm excited for that to hopefully lessen after October.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Aug 12, 2019 21:12:54 GMT -5
I keep saying this about your posts man, but I wish I could like this shit 10 times. It's the burn on Hawk the Slayer isn't it? Jack Palance in a fantasy movie is a sin, and that's all there is to it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 21:13:59 GMT -5
Nice! Super talented guy who will hopefully do good things.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Aug 12, 2019 21:17:51 GMT -5
It's like they're going out of their way to sign successful acts who draw money. People equate "would this draw" way too hard with "would this draw in WWE" and I'm excited for that to hopefully lessen after October. Gonna stomp on about this until the day I die now but the Jebailey/Nakazawa match, for all a lot of people hated it, was the last straw to get several friends of mine who were in to fighting games just like 100% plugged in to pro wrestling and they've gone on to enjoy now what people would call "good matches" because they watched something that spoke their language to them and hooked them in. Nobody in the room cared about it being a simulation of a realistic, gritty fight; in the universe of the match, Justin Wong handing over his fight stick was the coolest f***ing thing and they lost their minds. It's all about the crowd you're looking for and not crossing your wires on tone and when the time for what is. I don't think it's even "would this draw in WWE" but "would this draw in 1980s Memphis" and that's a really narrow view of everything to take.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 12, 2019 21:44:36 GMT -5
It's like they're going out of their way to sign successful acts who draw money. People equate "would this draw" way too hard with "would this draw in WWE" and I'm excited for that to hopefully lessen after October. Yeah, this is why I like that AEW isn't (for now) trying to find roided up hosses to fill its ranks.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Aug 12, 2019 22:39:05 GMT -5
This seems like pretty fallacious logic that "newer = better." The Marvel movies are better than Batman Forever because they're better movies. In fact, Batman Forever and especially Batman & Robin have a lot in common with modern-day WWE: The "it's just comic books, so who cares about quality control?" attitude on the part of the filmmakers. Humor fit for 6-year olds but ostensibly directed towards adults, with a hint of wink-at-the-camera self-consciously goofy BS (the Bat Credit Card, "Holy rusted metal, Batman!"). While the Marvel movies were successful in actually treating their audience like adults who can follow a story, even if it's "just" comic book stuff. Edit: This is two posts now today where the quoted portion simply disappears even though I see it in the Reply box. I've fought with these for minutes on end so people are just going to have to figure out what I'm referring to on their own.
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mystermystery
Dennis Stamp
Still in the White Hummer
Posts: 4,361
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Post by mystermystery on Aug 12, 2019 22:41:23 GMT -5
So, completely side-stepping this whole conversation about "Dis business" allow me to say...
Every time I've seen Orange Cassidy in some (mostly YouTube video) capacity, I've smiled.
That continued today.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Aug 12, 2019 22:41:40 GMT -5
Also, one of my main issues like AEW is that in many ways it's way TOO similar to WWE and that they're not doing enough to differentiate themselves. Long monologues in the ring, multi-man cluster schmozz matches as booking crutches, bad backstage skits that come off on the level of pornos without the sex, the "cut cameras at every moment of impact" directing, etc. All things that need to go away along with 3/4 of their goofy gimmicks.
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Post by toodarkmark on Aug 12, 2019 22:44:06 GMT -5
Orange Cassidy is my favorite indie guy, so this is exciting. He will have a chance to tell a story weekly.
As far as the people who don't like. GO TO H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS! Pardon my language, but you're a dummy!
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Post by prettynami on Aug 12, 2019 22:44:24 GMT -5
Genres grow and advance, they change with the times and find new things and new angles to play on. It's how that's always been. If someone in a fantasy movie conversation complains that The Princess Bride was kiddie bullshit they get looked at like a fun-hating weirdo. If someone complains GoT is 'too dark' for them that's a general statement on liking their fantasy lighter. Nobody says "We need shit to go back to being f***ing Hawk the Slayer, that was the good stuff and fantasy has been all downhill ever since". But in wrestling, the idea of comedy and fun being bad and bad for the business in spite of every general indication the fans like it and acts doing it find success on the indies is a mainstream stance, and the idea that we shouldn't be any further along than we were in the territory days is seen as a strong position. Tell someone that Batman Forever was the best superhero movies ever got and that shared universes are a stupid gimmick to cover up for the fact they can't go back to the magic of getting Seal to do the theme song and you'll sound like a lunatic. I'm not talking about nostalgia I'm talking about the idea that wreslting needs to pretend it's in the past and can't ever grow past it. No way, I personally long for the days of fantasy like Hawk The Slayer! Game of Thrones should have ended with a animated hawk jump scare! *nods*
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 12, 2019 22:50:18 GMT -5
I mean if you don't know his other gimmick on the indies, Cassidy is damn talented and can get people behind him with that babyface FIRE. Well deserved
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Aug 12, 2019 22:58:25 GMT -5
This seems like pretty fallacious logic that "newer = better." The Marvel movies are better than Batman Forever because they're better movies. In fact, Batman Forever and especially Batman & Robin have a lot in common with modern-day WWE: The "it's just comic books, so who cares about quality control?" attitude on the part of the filmmakers. Humor fit for 6-year olds but ostensibly directed towards adults, with a hint of wink-at-the-camera self-consciously goofy BS (the Bat Credit Card, "Holy rusted metal, Batman!"). While the Marvel movies were successful in actually treating their audience like adults who can follow a story, even if it's "just" comic book stuff. Edit: This is two posts now today where the quoted portion simply disappears even though I see it in the Reply box. I've fought with these for minutes on end so people are just going to have to figure out what I'm referring to on their own. My point isn't that newer is better so much as it was about addressing the idea that 'we want it like it was 30 years ago' is a prevalent attitude across everywhere. But also, my point is that wrestling seems like there's a lot of people who try to hold it back to ideas and views from a long time ago that refuse to let it advance. Believability is not defined by what wrestling was, it is defined by what wrestling is within the show it is presented in. Hell, the entire conceit of why Orange Cassidy works as a comedy act is because he is taken seriously as a professional wrestler having an actual professional wrestling match, where his offense is seen as actually capable and his opponents grow frustrated trying to work their standard style against him. He's not taken as a wink-wink burial of what the business is supposed to be. Why your "if Jon Snow had a cell phone" example--and I swear like twenty different users have singled that one out I f***ing loathe it--doesn't work is that Game of Thrones set itself up as a show without technology, so him abruptly having technology would be nonsensical. It's not just inherently the idea of an anachronism--see the third greatest movie ever made, A Knight's Tale, for proof of that--but the way that the universe is structured and presented. The Irish Whip is still absurd, it just became accepted because the world built around it said "Yep this sure is a real fighting technique" and it became ingrained into the storytelling of the genre. Insane, ludicrous gimmicks like The Undertaker were insane but seen as acceptable because they got over and were treated with gravitas. In so many ways the only difference with Orange Cassidy is generally a movement within pro wrestling circles who have drawn a hard line and decide everything past that line is wrong, so because he hasn't had his day yet to be grandfathered in he's seen as somehow an atrocity. Therefore, to circle back to how my point was supposed to be understood: wrestling has trouble growing and moving on into other things and other stories to tell.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Aug 12, 2019 23:09:18 GMT -5
"My point isn't that newer is better so much as it was about addressing the idea that 'we want it like it was 30 years ago' is a prevalent attitude across everywhere. But also, my point is that wrestling seems like there's a lot of people who try to hold it back to ideas and views from a long time ago that refuse to let it advance."
Except that in wrestling, unlike with comic book movies, the business was demonstrably and objectively far more financially successful 30 years ago--worldwide--than it is now. Which is an indication, if not proof, that maybe the people booking 30 years ago had it right.
"Believability is not defined by what wrestling was, it is defined by what wrestling is within the show it is presented in."
I agree. I don't like CHIKARA but their stuff with time travel is okay with me, because it takes place in a fantasy-based promotion. But is AEW that?
" Hell, the entire conceit of why Orange Cassidy works as a comedy act is because he is taken seriously as a professional wrestler having an actual professional wrestling match, where his offense is seen as actually capable and his opponents grow frustrated trying to work their standard style against him."
Except from what I've seen--and no, I'm not going to hunt down his entire ouvre of work because I've seen enough to know that I can't stand it--they don't. They (again, with the exception of David Starr) stand there gawking at him or do moves like attempted choke holds that they would never do in any other wrestling match, solely so he can "get his sh*it in."
"He's not taken as a wink-wink burial of what the business is supposed to be. Why your "if Jon Snow had a cell phone" example--and I swear like twenty different users have singled that one out I f***ing loathe it--doesn't work is that Game of Thrones set itself up as a show without technology, so him abruptly having technology would be nonsensical."
And wrestling is set up as a program where wins and losses matter--that's the standard Tony Khan said he wanted for AEW and that's the standard I'm going to hold them to. And they've signed a guy whose entire gimmick is that he's a slacker who doesn't care (unless it's over something stupid like his sunglasses or the Fast & Furious movies or some BS). So abruptly booking a guy who doesn't care is nonsensical.
But again, setting that aside...I just don't find the sh*t funny. It's anti-humor in the most insulting and literal intended sense of the term. Your mileage may vary, of course. But the booking of Fyter Fest and most of AEW's attempted comedy doesn't fill me with the faintest hope that they'll tap into a way to sensibly book this act.
"The Irish Whip is still absurd, it just became accepted because the world built around it said "Yep this sure is a real fighting technique" and it became ingrained into the storytelling of the genre. Insane, ludicrous gimmicks like The Undertaker were insane but seen as acceptable because they got over and were treated with gravitas. In so many ways the only difference with Orange Cassidy is generally a movement within pro wrestling circles who have drawn a hard line and decide everything past that line is wrong, so because he hasn't had his day yet to be grandfathered in he's seen as somehow an atrocity. Therefore, to circle back to how my point was supposed to be understood: wrestling has trouble growing and moving on into other things and other stories to tell."
Undertaker also worked best when he was the only grimdark character in the loud, bright, kiddie-friendly WWF. Orange Cassidy is the 5th or 6th goofball comedy gimmick AEW has signed out of a roster of about 25 people.
If it were JUST Orange Cassidy, or JUST the Librarians, or JUST the legless dude, or JUST Marko Stunt, or JUST Luchasaurus, they could be forgiven for trying something offbeat. Some or most or even all of those may work in a vacuum, but throwing them together and in most cases throwing a bunch of them on the Pre-Show which is supposed to be a selling point for your serious, alternative promotion just makes you look like a bush-league collection of guys not good enough to make it anywhere else (not just WWE).
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,769
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Post by Dub H on Aug 12, 2019 23:31:09 GMT -5
Sure wrestling peaked then.
So did comics peak in the past,things peak with age that is normal.
But even then Wrestling is a much bigger world-wide thing than it was back then and even with the lesser views companies are making more money than the past(maybe not attitude era,but more than 30 years ago). It is just that the money now is not only focused around one company.
You can't just say "Well 30 years past is the right way and it should be now"that method is proven to fail over and over.
I don't know which world you live in that Luchasaurus seems like they wouldnt cut anywhere else,most guys DID cut somewhere else already.
Not caring has NOTHING to do with winning and losing mattering for the company.
Also you are saying Mark Stunt is a goofy act?He is jsut a very small guy ,the perfect jobber.
Your whole point just boils down to "I don't like those things" no matter how much words you try to use to not sound like that.
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on Aug 12, 2019 23:41:45 GMT -5
I love Orange Cassidy! I am so happy about this news.
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