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Post by Muskrat on Apr 11, 2020 9:51:32 GMT -5
After a week in medically induced coma, Colby Cave of the Edmonton Oilers tragically passed away at the age of 25 this morning.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Apr 11, 2020 11:05:18 GMT -5
RIP Colby Cave
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 10:25:57 GMT -5
Kris Versteeg has announced his retirement.
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WR91
Bubba Ho-Tep
FAN 14685
Posts: 535
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Post by WR91 on May 8, 2020 9:57:17 GMT -5
After a week in medically induced coma, Colby Cave of the Edmonton Oilers tragically passed away at the age of 25 this morning. Oh my. That's truly terrible. Kris Versteeg has announced his retirement. Sad to hear.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,877
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Post by fw91 on May 21, 2020 10:40:04 GMT -5
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 1:39:12 GMT -5
So the Rangers made the playoffs? Also, love seeing the Leafs fans. They hate playing a defensive team to get in then be met with another Bruins matchup. Part of Toronto's fanbase makes them so easy to hate.
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Gus Richlen Was Wrong
Patti Mayonnaise
Metal Maestro: Co-winner of the FAN Idol Throwdown!
Fun while it lasted
Posts: 38,450
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Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on May 23, 2020 16:45:18 GMT -5
And because the Ducks utterly suck still, we won't even be in a modified format.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 13:52:12 GMT -5
Alabama-Huntsville is shutting down its hockey team, and supposedly, they won't be the only ones to.
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 26, 2020 5:42:11 GMT -5
Ok. So the recent reports about the 24 team playoffs are also including that the lottery will be only for the seven teams that don't have to play.
This isn't fair. Why should these teams get a much higher chance of winning the lottery? This is the deepest draft since 2003.
Wait until the play-in rounds are done. Include the teams that are beat out and have those 15 teams in the lottery with the same percentages.
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Post by sfvega on May 26, 2020 8:11:02 GMT -5
Ok. So the recent reports about the 24 team playoffs are also including that the lottery will be only for the seven teams that don't have to play. This isn't fair. Why should these teams get a much higher chance of winning the lottery? This is the deepest draft since 2003. Wait until the play-in rounds are done. Include the teams that are beat out and have those 15 teams in the lottery with the same percentages. I kinda like it. I've always hated the lottery odds of decent teams who just missed the playoffs jumping actual bottom teams. Like Chicago last season, 12th worst record in the league, drafting an elite forward prospect in Dach while being one pick ahead of Ottawa's draft slot who had 20 less points than them. This mitigates that type of thing happening, in addition to upping those next teams' playoff chances. Teams that were just outside of the playoffs now have the upside of making the playoffs and the downside of basically being in the same draft slot they were statistically likely to be in anyway. As cool as it is for fanbases of teams who just barely missed the playoffs having a chance to move up for better talent, I don't think most people are objectively rooting for the 12th best team to have the 3rd draft slot and by far the worst team to have the 4th slot. Or worse, to win the 1st overall. If anything it's a MORE fair system. Also, if it's a DEEPER draft, doesn't that bode better for teams drafting in the 8-14 spot? Versus a draft like 2013 where the top talent dried up before the end of the lottery.
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 26, 2020 10:06:01 GMT -5
Ok. So the recent reports about the 24 team playoffs are also including that the lottery will be only for the seven teams that don't have to play. This isn't fair. Why should these teams get a much higher chance of winning the lottery? This is the deepest draft since 2003. Wait until the play-in rounds are done. Include the teams that are beat out and have those 15 teams in the lottery with the same percentages. I kinda like it. I've always hated the lottery odds of decent teams who just missed the playoffs jumping actual bottom teams. Like Chicago last season, 12th worst record in the league, drafting an elite forward prospect in Dach while being one pick ahead of Ottawa's draft slot who had 20 less points than them. This mitigates that type of thing happening, in addition to upping those next teams' playoff chances. Teams that were just outside of the playoffs now have the upside of making the playoffs and the downside of basically being in the same draft slot they were statistically likely to be in anyway. As cool as it is for fanbases of teams who just barely missed the playoffs having a chance to move up for better talent, I don't think most people are objectively rooting for the 12th best team to have the 3rd draft slot and by far the worst team to have the 4th slot. Or worse, to win the 1st overall. If anything it's a MORE fair system. Also, if it's a DEEPER draft, doesn't that bode better for teams drafting in the 8-14 spot? Versus a draft like 2013 where the top talent dried up before the end of the lottery. I don't disagree with anything you said and see your perspective. I actually lean towards what you're saying but to play devil's advocate - I agree that it can be unfair to a team like Ottawa (no cups) compared to Chicago (three recently). I just see it that the middle teams have very low odds in the first place and it makes it more exciting for the lottery for entertainment. Also with Ottawa - they purposely tanked so I don't feel bad about them getting knocked down. They went from the Conference Finals to the basement all of a sudden, purposely, and we know it all started because they didn't want to pay Karlsson. The only reason the odds are changing are because of an unforeseen circumstance. The plan at the start of the year was to keep it the way it was. I understand that these are unusual times and they have to adapt, but a team like Detroit wasn't even close to coming even in 30th place. They went from whatever it is, 18% to almost 50% because of the pandemic. I look at a team like Carolina who didn't make the playoffs in (I think) 8 years getting the 2nd pick in 2018. It was a big boost for a team that was showing real improvement and they weren't tanking. They then go to the Conference Finals and it helped rejuvenate their fanbase. I'm a Rangers fan. So from our point of view, we are rebuilding the right way and not trying to tank. They've made big strides this year (thanks Panarin) and had a shot making the playoffs from the outside. If they fall short, it is a nice little consolation prize knowing they could get the first pick even though it's only something like 6% to get in the top three. It would drop from that to 0%. Even from a ratings perspective - again as a Rangers fan, I probably won't watch the lottery if they don't have a chance and there's a lot of fan bases that would probably tune out. Good way to get a buzz about it with almost half the teams having some chance. As far as it being a deeper draft, that's just timing. I would rather the Rangers have a chance at a lottery pick this year than any other year. As it stands now, they would pick 13th. If they landed Dylan Holloway who is ranked in that area, I would still be ecstatic as he has tremendous potential, and any other year he would be a no-question top 10 pick... but it doesn't take away that I would be more excited at drafting at the top three, especially Alexis Lafreniere, who could be McDavid like and be a top player in the league very soon. I could talk about this all day
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Post by sfvega on May 26, 2020 11:19:15 GMT -5
I kinda like it. I've always hated the lottery odds of decent teams who just missed the playoffs jumping actual bottom teams. Like Chicago last season, 12th worst record in the league, drafting an elite forward prospect in Dach while being one pick ahead of Ottawa's draft slot who had 20 less points than them. This mitigates that type of thing happening, in addition to upping those next teams' playoff chances. Teams that were just outside of the playoffs now have the upside of making the playoffs and the downside of basically being in the same draft slot they were statistically likely to be in anyway. As cool as it is for fanbases of teams who just barely missed the playoffs having a chance to move up for better talent, I don't think most people are objectively rooting for the 12th best team to have the 3rd draft slot and by far the worst team to have the 4th slot. Or worse, to win the 1st overall. If anything it's a MORE fair system. Also, if it's a DEEPER draft, doesn't that bode better for teams drafting in the 8-14 spot? Versus a draft like 2013 where the top talent dried up before the end of the lottery. I don't disagree with anything you said and see your perspective. I actually lean towards what you're saying but to play devil's advocate - I agree that it can be unfair to a team like Ottawa (no cups) compared to Chicago (three recently). I just see it that the middle teams have very low odds in the first place and it makes it more exciting for the lottery for entertainment. Also with Ottawa - they purposely tanked so I don't feel bad about them getting knocked down. They went from the Conference Finals to the basement all of a sudden, purposely, and we know it all started because they didn't want to pay Karlsson. The only reason the odds are changing are because of an unforeseen circumstance. The plan at the start of the year was to keep it the way it was. I understand that these are unusual times and they have to adapt, but a team like Detroit wasn't even close to coming even in 30th place. They went from whatever it is, 18% to almost 50% because of the pandemic. I look at a team like Carolina who didn't make the playoffs in (I think) 8 years getting the 2nd pick in 2018. It was a big boost for a team that was showing real improvement and they weren't tanking. They then go to the Conference Finals and it helped rejuvenate their fanbase. I'm a Rangers fan. So from our point of view, we are rebuilding the right way and not trying to tank. They've made big strides this year (thanks Panarin) and had a shot making the playoffs from the outside. If they fall short, it is a nice little consolation prize knowing they could get the first pick even though it's only something like 6% to get in the top three. It would drop from that to 0%. Even from a ratings perspective - again as a Rangers fan, I probably won't watch the lottery if they don't have a chance and there's a lot of fan bases that would probably tune out. Good way to get a buzz about it with almost half the teams having some chance. As far as it being a deeper draft, that's just timing. I would rather the Rangers have a chance at a lottery pick this year than any other year. As it stands now, they would pick 13th. If they landed Dylan Holloway who is ranked in that area, I would still be ecstatic as he has tremendous potential, and any other year he would be a no-question top 10 pick... but it doesn't take away that I would be more excited at drafting at the top three, especially Alexis Lafreniere, who could be McDavid like and be a top player in the league very soon. I could talk about this all day Ottawa didn't purposely tank because they had traded their 1st to Colorado the year prior for Duchene. It was a disaster of a deal which could have ended way worse. But the Karlsson trade, which looked horrid at the time, worked out incredibly well for Ottawa. Now they have two top 7 picks it would appear with SJ's first this year. The odds are changing for shitty reasons, but I don't think the results are a bad thing. Like NY. They just added Trouba and Panarin, Fox is working out, they just got Shestyorkin in net who is doing amazing. Zibanejad is having a huge year. They just got Kakko last draft and despite him having a rough year, I still think he has good potential long-term. They still have Kravtsov in the pipeline. They don't need Lafreniere on top of all that. Them getting him over Detroit would be great for NY, but to be real, it would be a tragedy. You want a game-changing talent to go to a team that most badly needs said talent. NY was possibly going to make a push for the 8 spot before the season got postponed. Let's be real, they aren't "rebuilding" like LA, Anaheim, and Detroit are right now. Those teams are very bad and their young talent is very thin (except Seider who apparently is some phenom.) Not to mention unlike NY, not every bottom team is in a huge market with a very loyal fanbase which is a FA destination. In a lot of ways, it would be the well off (I won't paint them as Chicago or Pittsburgh) getting richer. Of the non-playoff teams rn, NY is maybe in the best spot and that's even with your fanbase thinking Lias will be or is a bust. It would help the ratings, but I feel like absolute bottom teams having a better chance to not get jumped by borderline playoff teams is the right thing. Especially with them getting the benefit of a short road to the playoffs.
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Post by VRM: LET'S GO BLUESHIRTS!! on May 26, 2020 15:44:39 GMT -5
Brief rundown from Gary Bettman on the state of the season:
Regular Season is complete 24 teams, top 12 points percentage in each conference as of the Pause Play will resume at 2 hub cities, one for each conference, both cities TBD
2020 Playoffs: Qualifying Round Top 4 teams in each conference play round robin to determine seeding, regular season OT rules Remaining 8 teams play Best-of-5s, playoff OT rules
First/Second round still in discussion whether Best-of-5 or Best-of-7. Conference Finals and Stanley Cup Finals to be Best-of-7
Eastern Conference: Top 4 (Round Robin) 1) Boston 2) Tampa Bay 3) Washington 4) Philadelphia
Qualifying Round: 5) Pittsburgh vs 12) Montreal 6) Carolina vs 11) NY Rangers 7) NY Islanders vs 10) Florida 8) Toronto vs 9) Columbus
Western Conference: Top 4 (Round Robin) 1) St. Louis 2) Colorado 3) Vegas 4) Dallas
Qualifying Round: 5) Edmonton vs 12) Chicago 6) Nashville vs 11) Arizona 7) Vancouver vs 10) Minnesota 8) Calgary vs 9) Winnipeg
Hub City Candidates: Chicago Columbus, OH Dallas Edmonton Las Vegas Los Angeles Minneapolis/St. Paul Pittsburgh Toronto Vancouver
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 26, 2020 16:23:02 GMT -5
I don't disagree with anything you said and see your perspective. I actually lean towards what you're saying but to play devil's advocate - I agree that it can be unfair to a team like Ottawa (no cups) compared to Chicago (three recently). I just see it that the middle teams have very low odds in the first place and it makes it more exciting for the lottery for entertainment. Also with Ottawa - they purposely tanked so I don't feel bad about them getting knocked down. They went from the Conference Finals to the basement all of a sudden, purposely, and we know it all started because they didn't want to pay Karlsson. The only reason the odds are changing are because of an unforeseen circumstance. The plan at the start of the year was to keep it the way it was. I understand that these are unusual times and they have to adapt, but a team like Detroit wasn't even close to coming even in 30th place. They went from whatever it is, 18% to almost 50% because of the pandemic. I look at a team like Carolina who didn't make the playoffs in (I think) 8 years getting the 2nd pick in 2018. It was a big boost for a team that was showing real improvement and they weren't tanking. They then go to the Conference Finals and it helped rejuvenate their fanbase. I'm a Rangers fan. So from our point of view, we are rebuilding the right way and not trying to tank. They've made big strides this year (thanks Panarin) and had a shot making the playoffs from the outside. If they fall short, it is a nice little consolation prize knowing they could get the first pick even though it's only something like 6% to get in the top three. It would drop from that to 0%. Even from a ratings perspective - again as a Rangers fan, I probably won't watch the lottery if they don't have a chance and there's a lot of fan bases that would probably tune out. Good way to get a buzz about it with almost half the teams having some chance. As far as it being a deeper draft, that's just timing. I would rather the Rangers have a chance at a lottery pick this year than any other year. As it stands now, they would pick 13th. If they landed Dylan Holloway who is ranked in that area, I would still be ecstatic as he has tremendous potential, and any other year he would be a no-question top 10 pick... but it doesn't take away that I would be more excited at drafting at the top three, especially Alexis Lafreniere, who could be McDavid like and be a top player in the league very soon. I could talk about this all day Ottawa didn't purposely tank because they had traded their 1st to Colorado the year prior for Duchene. It was a disaster of a deal which could have ended way worse. But the Karlsson trade, which looked horrid at the time, worked out incredibly well for Ottawa. Now they have two top 7 picks it would appear with SJ's first this year. The odds are changing for shitty reasons, but I don't think the results are a bad thing. Like NY. They just added Trouba and Panarin, Fox is working out, they just got Shestyorkin in net who is doing amazing. Zibanejad is having a huge year. They just got Kakko last draft and despite him having a rough year, I still think he has good potential long-term. They still have Kravtsov in the pipeline. They don't need Lafreniere on top of all that. Them getting him over Detroit would be great for NY, but to be real, it would be a tragedy. You want a game-changing talent to go to a team that most badly needs said talent. NY was possibly going to make a push for the 8 spot before the season got postponed. Let's be real, they aren't "rebuilding" like LA, Anaheim, and Detroit are right now. Those teams are very bad and their young talent is very thin (except Seider who apparently is some phenom.) Not to mention unlike NY, not every bottom team is in a huge market with a very loyal fanbase which is a FA destination. In a lot of ways, it would be the well off (I won't paint them as Chicago or Pittsburgh) getting richer. Of the non-playoff teams rn, NY is maybe in the best spot and that's even with your fanbase thinking Lias will be or is a bust. It would help the ratings, but I feel like absolute bottom teams having a better chance to not get jumped by borderline playoff teams is the right thing. Especially with them getting the benefit of a short road to the playoffs. Ottawa tanked big time. They traded Karlsson, Duchene, Stone, Dzingel, Hoffman, Pageau, among others. Those are big names. Besides Karlsson and his injuries, those guys were young and either in their prime or just getting there. It's not like they were all aging stars and their production took a nose dive. Melnyk was just too cheap to pay them. They have seven draft picks this year in the first two rounds. That's tanking. They knew this was going to be more than a one year process, things just worked in their favour in the Colorado deal. They took the gamble and it paid off that they didn't have to give up the #1 pick. With the Rangers, they did improve, but they also had to give up pieces to get those players. Trouba cost a first round pick and Neil Pionk. Fox cost two second round picks. Zibanejad is hitting his prime, but they had to trade Derek Brassard who was a good player at the time. Shestyorkin couldn't have come at a better time now that Hank is all but done, but it took him six years to develop. He was also a fourth round pick and wasn't a "can't miss prospect." They lucked out with Kakko and I agree he will be an impact player down the line. Even one of their prospects, K'Andre Miller, they had to move up in the first round and it cost an additional second rounder to get him. They do have a more attractive market for free agents, but players also want to go to teams with potential. When LA were winning, Carter wanted to go there. When Anaheim won, Niedermayer wanted to win with his brother. When Chicago had a great core before their cups, Hossa wanted to go there. Like for Panarin, the city of New York did play into him signing, but it was down to the Rangers, Islanders, and Panthers. There's a lot better chance at winning during the length of his contact with the Rangers than those two in my opinion, although I could be wrong. If the Rangers were in the complete basement and no real prospects in the pipeline, I don't think he would have signed. It wouldn't be a tragedy if another team got the pick over Detroit. They had years of success, and knew they were giving up their future with their trades when they were making their runs. They set the most consecutive playoffs in a row - 25 years. I remember Elliotte Friedman reporting years ago that the owners wanted to make the playoffs no matter what until there was nothing left. Let guys like Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, etc retire rather than trade them. Then start the rebuild from scratch, which is what they did. It's hitting them now with the lack of draft picks, and they haven't seem to hit any significant ones in the later rounds. It's just the cycle. And even if they didn't win the lottery, the worst they would pick is #4. Seider is a monster and he is a good building block. Here is where I agree that the lottery could be unfair to a team. Say San Jose still had their first pick this year. They obviously had Stanley Cup hopes, it's just that everything went wrong for them. They didn't purposely tank or sell everyone off in a rebuild. If the Rangers got their pick instead, yeah I'd be pissed if I was a Sharks fan. I see the lottery as benefiting both the bottom teams and the middle of the pack teams (obviously). You're absolutely right in that the bottom teams need the talent to survive, but there are benefits to the middle of the pack teams too. Let's take Dach going to Chicago for example. Here he can learn from Toews, Kane, and Keith, three future hall of famers. He's going to become a better player by playing with them, practicing against them, seeing their habits, getting mentorship, etc. They had the 12th pick and moved up to third, so they didn't tank. That year they actually sucked up until the new year, but were on an insane run towards the playoffs and then just didn't make it. They got rewarded for it. From the NHL perspective, this could be better as this could elevate Dach from being a very good player to an All Star that's marketable. If Dach got drafted by say, Buffalo, and just floundered for a couple years, nobody wins in that. But speaking of Buffalo, to agree with your statement, there's examples like Jack Eichel. I'm not a Buffalo fan by any means, but he's the type to change the franchise around (although I could make an argument against Buffalo tanking extremely hard that year to try to get McDavid was hockey karma, although Eichel couldn't have been a better consolation prize.) Add in Dahlin, Couzins, and whoever their pick is this year, and that's a solid core moving forward. They could go from the losing culture, where, what, two years ago, Ryan O'Reilly goes from saying he hates hockey to winning the cup in St. Louis, to something special pretty quickly in Buffalo. I see both sides of it. Enjoying this conversation! Man, I can't wait to watch me some playoff hockey. This feels like it's dragging on forever.
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Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
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Post by Steveweiser on May 26, 2020 16:52:34 GMT -5
To clarify with the Draft Lottery, it's the seven non-qualifying teams (with Ottawa having San Jose's pick), and eight placeholder teams, with Phase 1 being held on June 26th. If the three picks all go to the non-qualifying teams, there will not be a Phase 2. If one or more of the placeholder teams gets a Top 3 pick, there will be Phase 2 before the First Round of the Playoffs, held just among the eight teams who failed to qualify from the Qualifying Round. This is how the odds break down:
Team P% Odds
1. Detroit Red Wings .275 18.5% 2. Ottawa Senators .437 13.5% 3. Ottawa Senators* .437 11.5% 4. Los Angeles Kings .457 9.5% 5. Anaheim Ducks .472 8.5% 6. New Jersey Devils .493** 7.5% 7. Buffalo Sabres .493** 6.5% 8. Team A n/a 6.0% 9. Team B n/a 5.0% 10. Team C n/a 3.5% 11. Team D n/a 3.0% 12. Team E n/a 2.5% 13. Team F n/a 2.0% 14. Team G n/a 1.5% 15. Team H n/a 1.0%
* Acquired in a trade with San Jose Sharks (.450 points percentage) ** Buffalo Sabres ranked higher than New Jersey Devils on the basis of higher regulation/OT win percentage (Buffalo, .406 ROW%; New Jersey, .348 ROW%)
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Post by sfvega on May 26, 2020 17:32:47 GMT -5
Ottawa didn't purposely tank because they had traded their 1st to Colorado the year prior for Duchene. It was a disaster of a deal which could have ended way worse. But the Karlsson trade, which looked horrid at the time, worked out incredibly well for Ottawa. Now they have two top 7 picks it would appear with SJ's first this year. The odds are changing for shitty reasons, but I don't think the results are a bad thing. Like NY. They just added Trouba and Panarin, Fox is working out, they just got Shestyorkin in net who is doing amazing. Zibanejad is having a huge year. They just got Kakko last draft and despite him having a rough year, I still think he has good potential long-term. They still have Kravtsov in the pipeline. They don't need Lafreniere on top of all that. Them getting him over Detroit would be great for NY, but to be real, it would be a tragedy. You want a game-changing talent to go to a team that most badly needs said talent. NY was possibly going to make a push for the 8 spot before the season got postponed. Let's be real, they aren't "rebuilding" like LA, Anaheim, and Detroit are right now. Those teams are very bad and their young talent is very thin (except Seider who apparently is some phenom.) Not to mention unlike NY, not every bottom team is in a huge market with a very loyal fanbase which is a FA destination. In a lot of ways, it would be the well off (I won't paint them as Chicago or Pittsburgh) getting richer. Of the non-playoff teams rn, NY is maybe in the best spot and that's even with your fanbase thinking Lias will be or is a bust. It would help the ratings, but I feel like absolute bottom teams having a better chance to not get jumped by borderline playoff teams is the right thing. Especially with them getting the benefit of a short road to the playoffs. Ottawa tanked big time. They traded Karlsson, Duchene, Stone, Dzingel, Hoffman, Pageau, among others. Those are big names. Besides Karlsson and his injuries, those guys were young and either in their prime or just getting there. It's not like they were all aging stars and their production took a nose dive. Melnyk was just too cheap to pay them. They have seven draft picks this year in the first two rounds. That's tanking. They knew this was going to be more than a one year process, things just worked in their favour in the Colorado deal. They took the gamble and it paid off that they didn't have to give up the #1 pick. With the Rangers, they did improve, but they also had to give up pieces to get those players. Trouba cost a first round pick and Neil Pionk. Fox cost two second round picks. Zibanejad is hitting his prime, but they had to trade Derek Brassard who was a good player at the time. Shestyorkin couldn't have come at a better time now that Hank is all but done, but it took him six years to develop. He was also a fourth round pick and wasn't a "can't miss prospect." They lucked out with Kakko and I agree he will be an impact player down the line. Even one of their prospects, K'Andre Miller, they had to move up in the first round and it cost an additional second rounder to get him. They do have a more attractive market for free agents, but players also want to go to teams with potential. When LA were winning, Carter wanted to go there. When Anaheim won, Niedermayer wanted to win with his brother. When Chicago had a great core before their cups, Hossa wanted to go there. Like for Panarin, the city of New York did play into him signing, but it was down to the Rangers, Islanders, and Panthers. There's a lot better chance at winning during the length of his contact with the Rangers than those two in my opinion, although I could be wrong. If the Rangers were in the complete basement and no real prospects in the pipeline, I don't think he would have signed. It wouldn't be a tragedy if another team got the pick over Detroit. They had years of success, and knew they were giving up their future with their trades when they were making their runs. They set the most consecutive playoffs in a row - 25 years. I remember Elliotte Friedman reporting years ago that the owners wanted to make the playoffs no matter what until there was nothing left. Let guys like Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, etc retire rather than trade them. Then start the rebuild from scratch, which is what they did. It's hitting them now with the lack of draft picks, and they haven't seem to hit any significant ones in the later rounds. It's just the cycle. And even if they didn't win the lottery, the worst they would pick is #4. Seider is a monster and he is a good building block. Here is where I agree that the lottery could be unfair to a team. Say San Jose still had their first pick this year. They obviously had Stanley Cup hopes, it's just that everything went wrong for them. They didn't purposely tank or sell everyone off in a rebuild. If the Rangers got their pick instead, yeah I'd be pissed if I was a Sharks fan. I see the lottery as benefiting both the bottom teams and the middle of the pack teams (obviously). You're absolutely right in that the bottom teams need the talent to survive, but there are benefits to the middle of the pack teams too. Let's take Dach going to Chicago for example. Here he can learn from Toews, Kane, and Keith, three future hall of famers. He's going to become a better player by playing with them, practicing against them, seeing their habits, getting mentorship, etc. They had the 12th pick and moved up to third, so they didn't tank. That year they actually sucked up until the new year, but were on an insane run towards the playoffs and then just didn't make it. They got rewarded for it. From the NHL perspective, this could be better as this could elevate Dach from being a very good player to an All Star that's marketable. If Dach got drafted by say, Buffalo, and just floundered for a couple years, nobody wins in that. But speaking of Buffalo, to agree with your statement, there's examples like Jack Eichel. I'm not a Buffalo fan by any means, but he's the type to change the franchise around (although I could make an argument against Buffalo tanking extremely hard that year to try to get McDavid was hockey karma, although Eichel couldn't have been a better consolation prize.) Add in Dahlin, Couzins, and whoever their pick is this year, and that's a solid core moving forward. They could go from the losing culture, where, what, two years ago, Ryan O'Reilly goes from saying he hates hockey to winning the cup in St. Louis, to something special pretty quickly in Buffalo. I see both sides of it. Enjoying this conversation! Man, I can't wait to watch me some playoff hockey. This feels like it's dragging on forever. No, I mean Ottawa didn't tank their season on purpose. They tried to win, because they had no incentive to lose. Their 1st was gone. Karlsson and Duchene came out and said they wouldn't re-sign. Their ownership sucks, but those guys were gone at that point. They didn't trade controlled players at their own will, they traded guys who were going to be gone. They offered Karlsson 10 AAV, and he turned it down. You trade guys who are going to be gone anyway. The Blues traded Shattenkirk when he came out and basically said he was going to NY, which he did. A bad team dealing assets in their last season isn't tanking, it's proper asset management. Keeping Stone, Karlsson, Duchene, Hoffman until their contract expires for a bad team would just be stupid. You HAVE to trade those guys. The idea of tanking is that you purposely do worse than you could be doing in order to get a top draft spot. They were bad WITH most if not all of those guys. They had already lost that top draft slot. They were going to be worse when they sold off expiring contracts. That's just a natural progression. Not like the NBA when teams are benching their best players with the intent to lose. Ottawa with Duchene and Hoffman and Stone were trash. You basically want Ottawa to be punished for being a bad team, which is the opposite of the point of the lottery. EVERYONE costs something. So what, because you had to pay for Trouba and Fox they weren't good acquisitions? I don't understand the assertion. Zibanejad is a WILDLY better player than Brassard. What is the point? Pittsburgh had to trade to get Phil Kessel. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a great deal or that the Pens didn't have a loaded team after. Shestyorkin has been ready for years, but the KHL. He's not ONLY a prospect in the draft, he's also a prospect after the draft. Colton Parayko was a 3rd rounder and also a top defensive prospect the last dozen years. Shestyorkin is a top goalie prospect. I don't know why a RANGERS fan would argue he wasn't can't miss as a draft pick over some semantics. Sorokin is the same way. Goalies take a while to develop and KHL guys are very tricky because of their commitments and not knowing if/when they'll get here. And yes, you have to use a draft pick to get them. I don't understand the cost hang-up. LA and Anaheim had to be good teams in order for guys to want to go there. Shattenkirk left a better team to go to NY. Panarin too. The market there is a draw, no top FA is clamoring to go to Anaheim when they're a non-playoff team. You just said Niedermeyer wanted to play with his brother. I must have forgot Rob Panarin was on the Rangers, lol. They aren't comparable. Don't downplay NY being a market that guys want to go to. Florida or Arizona doesn't get guys clamoring to go there, they can get them by backing up the brinks truck and that alone. Chicago lost in the conference finals the year before Hossa got there! And Hossa was on an aging team that beat them. Would you rather be on a Detroit team on the downside or with young Toews, Sharp, Byfuglien, and Kane with solid goaltending? The Rangers last year hardly compare to that team in the least. Of course a top FA would want to go to Chicago at that time. They were a loaded young contender and Hossa going there shifted some of the balance in the West from Detroit to Chicago so it took them even just in the off-season perception from being the #2 team to being the #1 team out West. Panarin went to a team that finished like 10th in the East. Big difference. Detroit is in the middle of a scorched earth rebuild. NYR not only is years ahead of them, they're also 10x more attractive to top FAs, and amuch better team on the ice. You can't compare how much NYR needs a franchise talent to Detroit. At all. Hell, my Blues would love Lafreniere too. Let's get us in there if we're not taking into account the obvious differences in talent level. Detroit is the worst team in the league by a large margin. Not sure how their success 25 years ago is relevant to them needing help now. And I hate Detroit. But when you're asking who desrves the #1 pick, it's them. Especially in contrast to NYR. That's not even a question. Shit dude, my Blues sucked until the New Year and they won the Cup. Chicago came pretty close to making the playoffs. Stop making these weird assertions that don't make any sense. So because Chicago started the year bad, they weren't the 12th worst record in hockey? Detroit was terrible to start this season, so by your logic they totally deserve the 1st pick. Chicago was a tough team, why would they tank? What's the point? That better teams deserve higher picks because they aren't tanking? Because Detroit, LA, Anaheim, Buffalo aren't tanking. They genuinely lack things like talent and coaching and player development. Buffalo has been bad since they got new ownership. It's not like they could have easily contended for the playoffs that year and tanked it. They were a bad team. They've been a bad team for a while. It's not like the NFL where teams are intentionally playing bad players in order to lose games to get the guaranteed top pick or top 3 pick. Teams like Buffalo that year or Detroit this season are REALLY bad teams. The Rangers shouldn't be rewarded with top talent for being ALREADY MUCH BETTER than they are. That's backwards. Then playoff teams should be rewarded for being better than NYR. For competitve balance, it's better for the WORST teams to get the BEST talent. The Rangers, the Blackhawks last year are really solid teams. While it makes sense for their fanbases to root for elite prospects, it doesn't really make sense from an objective POV that you would want a great talent going to a good team and a lesser talent to go to a cellar team. Like the Crosby lottery. Pittsburgh was in no way going to be the worst team that year, that single-handedly changed the competitve balance in their division, and went a long way to securing Cups for them. A lot of fans still hate the way that lockout worked out. Because a team that was already on the come-up got this game-changing player. I mean, if you were a Rangers fan who was rooting for a NY team that was as bad as Detroit this season, would you be arguing for you guys to lose Lafreniere to a borderline playoff team? Hell no. You'd be like "That guy should be ours."
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2020 19:14:59 GMT -5
Sucks to be a Sharks fan. No playoffs, and no lottery pick.
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 26, 2020 19:51:46 GMT -5
Ottawa tanked big time. They traded Karlsson, Duchene, Stone, Dzingel, Hoffman, Pageau, among others. Those are big names. Besides Karlsson and his injuries, those guys were young and either in their prime or just getting there. It's not like they were all aging stars and their production took a nose dive. Melnyk was just too cheap to pay them. They have seven draft picks this year in the first two rounds. That's tanking. They knew this was going to be more than a one year process, things just worked in their favour in the Colorado deal. They took the gamble and it paid off that they didn't have to give up the #1 pick. With the Rangers, they did improve, but they also had to give up pieces to get those players. Trouba cost a first round pick and Neil Pionk. Fox cost two second round picks. Zibanejad is hitting his prime, but they had to trade Derek Brassard who was a good player at the time. Shestyorkin couldn't have come at a better time now that Hank is all but done, but it took him six years to develop. He was also a fourth round pick and wasn't a "can't miss prospect." They lucked out with Kakko and I agree he will be an impact player down the line. Even one of their prospects, K'Andre Miller, they had to move up in the first round and it cost an additional second rounder to get him. They do have a more attractive market for free agents, but players also want to go to teams with potential. When LA were winning, Carter wanted to go there. When Anaheim won, Niedermayer wanted to win with his brother. When Chicago had a great core before their cups, Hossa wanted to go there. Like for Panarin, the city of New York did play into him signing, but it was down to the Rangers, Islanders, and Panthers. There's a lot better chance at winning during the length of his contact with the Rangers than those two in my opinion, although I could be wrong. If the Rangers were in the complete basement and no real prospects in the pipeline, I don't think he would have signed. It wouldn't be a tragedy if another team got the pick over Detroit. They had years of success, and knew they were giving up their future with their trades when they were making their runs. They set the most consecutive playoffs in a row - 25 years. I remember Elliotte Friedman reporting years ago that the owners wanted to make the playoffs no matter what until there was nothing left. Let guys like Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, etc retire rather than trade them. Then start the rebuild from scratch, which is what they did. It's hitting them now with the lack of draft picks, and they haven't seem to hit any significant ones in the later rounds. It's just the cycle. And even if they didn't win the lottery, the worst they would pick is #4. Seider is a monster and he is a good building block. Here is where I agree that the lottery could be unfair to a team. Say San Jose still had their first pick this year. They obviously had Stanley Cup hopes, it's just that everything went wrong for them. They didn't purposely tank or sell everyone off in a rebuild. If the Rangers got their pick instead, yeah I'd be pissed if I was a Sharks fan. I see the lottery as benefiting both the bottom teams and the middle of the pack teams (obviously). You're absolutely right in that the bottom teams need the talent to survive, but there are benefits to the middle of the pack teams too. Let's take Dach going to Chicago for example. Here he can learn from Toews, Kane, and Keith, three future hall of famers. He's going to become a better player by playing with them, practicing against them, seeing their habits, getting mentorship, etc. They had the 12th pick and moved up to third, so they didn't tank. That year they actually sucked up until the new year, but were on an insane run towards the playoffs and then just didn't make it. They got rewarded for it. From the NHL perspective, this could be better as this could elevate Dach from being a very good player to an All Star that's marketable. If Dach got drafted by say, Buffalo, and just floundered for a couple years, nobody wins in that. But speaking of Buffalo, to agree with your statement, there's examples like Jack Eichel. I'm not a Buffalo fan by any means, but he's the type to change the franchise around (although I could make an argument against Buffalo tanking extremely hard that year to try to get McDavid was hockey karma, although Eichel couldn't have been a better consolation prize.) Add in Dahlin, Couzins, and whoever their pick is this year, and that's a solid core moving forward. They could go from the losing culture, where, what, two years ago, Ryan O'Reilly goes from saying he hates hockey to winning the cup in St. Louis, to something special pretty quickly in Buffalo. I see both sides of it. Enjoying this conversation! Man, I can't wait to watch me some playoff hockey. This feels like it's dragging on forever. No, I mean Ottawa didn't tank their season on purpose. They tried to win, because they had no incentive to lose. Their 1st was gone. Karlsson and Duchene came out and said they wouldn't re-sign. Their ownership sucks, but those guys were gone at that point. They didn't trade controlled players at their own will, they traded guys who were going to be gone. They offered Karlsson 10 AAV, and he turned it down. You trade guys who are going to be gone anyway. The Blues traded Shattenkirk when he came out and basically said he was going to NY, which he did. A bad team dealing assets in their last season isn't tanking, it's proper asset management. Keeping Stone, Karlsson, Duchene, Hoffman until their contract expires for a bad team would just be stupid. You HAVE to trade those guys. The idea of tanking is that you purposely do worse than you could be doing in order to get a top draft spot. They were bad WITH most if not all of those guys. They had already lost that top draft slot. They were going to be worse when they sold off expiring contracts. That's just a natural progression. Not like the NBA when teams are benching their best players with the intent to lose. Ottawa with Duchene and Hoffman and Stone were trash. You basically want Ottawa to be punished for being a bad team, which is the opposite of the point of the lottery. EVERYONE costs something. So what, because you had to pay for Trouba and Fox they weren't good acquisitions? I don't understand the assertion. Zibanejad is a WILDLY better player than Brassard. What is the point? Pittsburgh had to trade to get Phil Kessel. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a great deal or that the Pens didn't have a loaded team after. Shestyorkin has been ready for years, but the KHL. He's not ONLY a prospect in the draft, he's also a prospect after the draft. Colton Parayko was a 3rd rounder and also a top defensive prospect the last dozen years. Shestyorkin is a top goalie prospect. I don't know why a RANGERS fan would argue he wasn't can't miss as a draft pick over some semantics. Sorokin is the same way. Goalies take a while to develop and KHL guys are very tricky because of their commitments and not knowing if/when they'll get here. And yes, you have to use a draft pick to get them. I don't understand the cost hang-up. LA and Anaheim had to be good teams in order for guys to want to go there. Shattenkirk left a better team to go to NY. Panarin too. The market there is a draw, no top FA is clamoring to go to Anaheim when they're a non-playoff team. You just said Niedermeyer wanted to play with his brother. I must have forgot Rob Panarin was on the Rangers, lol. They aren't comparable. Don't downplay NY being a market that guys want to go to. Florida or Arizona doesn't get guys clamoring to go there, they can get them by backing up the brinks truck and that alone. Chicago lost in the conference finals the year before Hossa got there! And Hossa was on an aging team that beat them. Would you rather be on a Detroit team on the downside or with young Toews, Sharp, Byfuglien, and Kane with solid goaltending? The Rangers last year hardly compare to that team in the least. Of course a top FA would want to go to Chicago at that time. They were a loaded young contender and Hossa going there shifted some of the balance in the West from Detroit to Chicago so it took them even just in the off-season perception from being the #2 team to being the #1 team out West. Panarin went to a team that finished like 10th in the East. Big difference. Detroit is in the middle of a scorched earth rebuild. NYR not only is years ahead of them, they're also 10x more attractive to top FAs, and amuch better team on the ice. You can't compare how much NYR needs a franchise talent to Detroit. At all. Hell, my Blues would love Lafreniere too. Let's get us in there if we're not taking into account the obvious differences in talent level. Detroit is the worst team in the league by a large margin. Not sure how their success 25 years ago is relevant to them needing help now. And I hate Detroit. But when you're asking who desrves the #1 pick, it's them. Especially in contrast to NYR. That's not even a question. Shit dude, my Blues sucked until the New Year and they won the Cup. Chicago came pretty close to making the playoffs. Stop making these weird assertions that don't make any sense. So because Chicago started the year bad, they weren't the 12th worst record in hockey? Detroit was terrible to start this season, so by your logic they totally deserve the 1st pick. Chicago was a tough team, why would they tank? What's the point? That better teams deserve higher picks because they aren't tanking? Because Detroit, LA, Anaheim, Buffalo aren't tanking. They genuinely lack things like talent and coaching and player development. Buffalo has been bad since they got new ownership. It's not like they could have easily contended for the playoffs that year and tanked it. They were a bad team. They've been a bad team for a while. It's not like the NFL where teams are intentionally playing bad players in order to lose games to get the guaranteed top pick or top 3 pick. Teams like Buffalo that year or Detroit this season are REALLY bad teams. The Raalngers shouldn't be rewarded with top talent for being ALREADY MUCH BETTER than they are. That's backwards. Then playoff teams should be rewarded for being better than NYR. For competitve balance, it's better for the WORST teams to get the BEST talent. The Rangers, the Blackhawks last year are really solid teams. While it makes sense for their fanbases to root for elite prospects, it doesn't really make sense from an objective POV that you would want a great talent going to a good team and a lesser talent to go to a cellar team. Like the Crosby lottery. Pittsburgh was in no way going to be the worst team that year, that single-handedly changed the competitve balance in their division, and went a long way to securing Cups for them. A lot of fans still hate the way that lockout worked out. Because a team that was already on the come-up got this game-changing player. I mean, if you were a Rangers fan who was rooting for a NY team that was as bad as Detroit this season, would you be arguing for you guys to lose Lafreniere to a borderline playoff team? Hell no. You'd be like "That guy should be ours." Ottawa announced the rebuild publicly before telling the players. Not sure where you live or how much media there is in your area, but Duchene publicly said he was livid that the team announced it before the players were approached. He said he wanted to stay as he's from central Ontario and wanted to be close to family. He wanted to go after because he didn't want to be a part of a rebuild. Karlsson didn't say he wasn't going to resign until after the announcement too. The money they offered him was too late at that point and a PR move. They knew he wasn't going to accept. Hockey Central (Doug Maclean, Nick Kypreos) were very critical of the Senators for handling it like that, it was widely covered on TSN and Sportsnet. After those two were gone, the others snowballed after. They weren't bad with those guys, they made the conferences finals and was one overtime goal away from making the finals. You're right in that the Rangers are being more aggressive rebuilding than teams like Anaheim and Detroit, but they also need to have be more aggressive because they have the highest ticket prices in the league. But they have given up pretty decent pieces in order to due to do so, not like the other rebuilding teams like LA. That's more than fine for both fanbases. LA probably has the best prospect pool in the league. There's nothing wrong with their approach. With the Rangers, just them missing the playoffs for the last two years has the majority of fans (not me) being very impatient. Guess it's the New York mindset lol. It would be great to have even the minimal shot at the lottery like I was saying previously to get the potential bump into contender sooner than later, but I wouldn't lose sleep over picking around 12-15. I agree, LA and Anaheim did have to be good teams for people to be there. Same with Chicago. Nobody wanted to be in Chicago when they were bad. The same thing with Arizona and Florida. These cities are destinations as well; they're not Edmonton or Winnipeg. I don't think any huge free agents have gone there because they've never been a true contender, plus who knows what they've heard regarding about those teams potentially relocating. New York is most definitely a destination, of course it has it's appeal. With Panarin, it being New York combined that the other two teams making the final offers being the Islanders and Panthers, the destination and potential core to have some success could/would/should have sealed it. With Niedermayer, I should have said he went to try to win a cup with his brother. They were contenders and just landed Pronger. I'm not saying that the Rangers or teams in the middle need a franchise player like Detroit does. They obviously don't. I just like the added entertainment and excitement that comes along with the draft lottery dude. It's not a perfect system. We can disagree on it, that's more than fine. I respect your opinion, and like I said previously, I actually agree with you, I was playing devil's advocate for the sake of me being a fan of a team in the middle. Detroit only having an 18% chance is pretty insane and they are taking their beating now like you were saying. In regards to your last sentence and being a Rangers/Red Wings fan, I agree. The only thing that I wasn't agreeing with was changing the lottery odds because of the pandemic. I just thought that the %'s of where teams end up should have stayed the same as this was the plan until the virus hit. They just made the announcement regarding the lottery and it looks like it'll stay the same, so I'm happy about that. At worst, Detroit can still get a franchise player at #4, especially this year. I just like that there is that incentive not to tank like Buffalo in 2015. In my post about Chicago, it's that I like that there's a potential consolation for not tanking. Maybe it's because I played for a junior hockey team that purposely tanked and it was infuriating, but I hate tanking. Chicago didn't look like a playoff team, same with St. Louis, and both teams got rewarded for not blowing up their teams and still trying to win. Chicago with the pick, St. Louis with the cup. Both teams could have easily gave up and they didn't. I applaud that. They weren't like Buffalo in 2015. And I agree that the coaching and development also has everything to do with it.
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Post by sfvega on May 26, 2020 21:31:06 GMT -5
No, I mean Ottawa didn't tank their season on purpose. They tried to win, because they had no incentive to lose. Their 1st was gone. Karlsson and Duchene came out and said they wouldn't re-sign. Their ownership sucks, but those guys were gone at that point. They didn't trade controlled players at their own will, they traded guys who were going to be gone. They offered Karlsson 10 AAV, and he turned it down. You trade guys who are going to be gone anyway. The Blues traded Shattenkirk when he came out and basically said he was going to NY, which he did. A bad team dealing assets in their last season isn't tanking, it's proper asset management. Keeping Stone, Karlsson, Duchene, Hoffman until their contract expires for a bad team would just be stupid. You HAVE to trade those guys. The idea of tanking is that you purposely do worse than you could be doing in order to get a top draft spot. They were bad WITH most if not all of those guys. They had already lost that top draft slot. They were going to be worse when they sold off expiring contracts. That's just a natural progression. Not like the NBA when teams are benching their best players with the intent to lose. Ottawa with Duchene and Hoffman and Stone were trash. You basically want Ottawa to be punished for being a bad team, which is the opposite of the point of the lottery. EVERYONE costs something. So what, because you had to pay for Trouba and Fox they weren't good acquisitions? I don't understand the assertion. Zibanejad is a WILDLY better player than Brassard. What is the point? Pittsburgh had to trade to get Phil Kessel. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a great deal or that the Pens didn't have a loaded team after. Shestyorkin has been ready for years, but the KHL. He's not ONLY a prospect in the draft, he's also a prospect after the draft. Colton Parayko was a 3rd rounder and also a top defensive prospect the last dozen years. Shestyorkin is a top goalie prospect. I don't know why a RANGERS fan would argue he wasn't can't miss as a draft pick over some semantics. Sorokin is the same way. Goalies take a while to develop and KHL guys are very tricky because of their commitments and not knowing if/when they'll get here. And yes, you have to use a draft pick to get them. I don't understand the cost hang-up. LA and Anaheim had to be good teams in order for guys to want to go there. Shattenkirk left a better team to go to NY. Panarin too. The market there is a draw, no top FA is clamoring to go to Anaheim when they're a non-playoff team. You just said Niedermeyer wanted to play with his brother. I must have forgot Rob Panarin was on the Rangers, lol. They aren't comparable. Don't downplay NY being a market that guys want to go to. Florida or Arizona doesn't get guys clamoring to go there, they can get them by backing up the brinks truck and that alone. Chicago lost in the conference finals the year before Hossa got there! And Hossa was on an aging team that beat them. Would you rather be on a Detroit team on the downside or with young Toews, Sharp, Byfuglien, and Kane with solid goaltending? The Rangers last year hardly compare to that team in the least. Of course a top FA would want to go to Chicago at that time. They were a loaded young contender and Hossa going there shifted some of the balance in the West from Detroit to Chicago so it took them even just in the off-season perception from being the #2 team to being the #1 team out West. Panarin went to a team that finished like 10th in the East. Big difference. Detroit is in the middle of a scorched earth rebuild. NYR not only is years ahead of them, they're also 10x more attractive to top FAs, and amuch better team on the ice. You can't compare how much NYR needs a franchise talent to Detroit. At all. Hell, my Blues would love Lafreniere too. Let's get us in there if we're not taking into account the obvious differences in talent level. Detroit is the worst team in the league by a large margin. Not sure how their success 25 years ago is relevant to them needing help now. And I hate Detroit. But when you're asking who desrves the #1 pick, it's them. Especially in contrast to NYR. That's not even a question. Shit dude, my Blues sucked until the New Year and they won the Cup. Chicago came pretty close to making the playoffs. Stop making these weird assertions that don't make any sense. So because Chicago started the year bad, they weren't the 12th worst record in hockey? Detroit was terrible to start this season, so by your logic they totally deserve the 1st pick. Chicago was a tough team, why would they tank? What's the point? That better teams deserve higher picks because they aren't tanking? Because Detroit, LA, Anaheim, Buffalo aren't tanking. They genuinely lack things like talent and coaching and player development. Buffalo has been bad since they got new ownership. It's not like they could have easily contended for the playoffs that year and tanked it. They were a bad team. They've been a bad team for a while. It's not like the NFL where teams are intentionally playing bad players in order to lose games to get the guaranteed top pick or top 3 pick. Teams like Buffalo that year or Detroit this season are REALLY bad teams. The Raalngers shouldn't be rewarded with top talent for being ALREADY MUCH BETTER than they are. That's backwards. Then playoff teams should be rewarded for being better than NYR. For competitve balance, it's better for the WORST teams to get the BEST talent. The Rangers, the Blackhawks last year are really solid teams. While it makes sense for their fanbases to root for elite prospects, it doesn't really make sense from an objective POV that you would want a great talent going to a good team and a lesser talent to go to a cellar team. Like the Crosby lottery. Pittsburgh was in no way going to be the worst team that year, that single-handedly changed the competitve balance in their division, and went a long way to securing Cups for them. A lot of fans still hate the way that lockout worked out. Because a team that was already on the come-up got this game-changing player. I mean, if you were a Rangers fan who was rooting for a NY team that was as bad as Detroit this season, would you be arguing for you guys to lose Lafreniere to a borderline playoff team? Hell no. You'd be like "That guy should be ours." Ottawa announced the rebuild publicly before telling the players. Not sure where you live or how much media there is in your area, but Duchene publicly said he was livid that the team announced it before the players were approached. He said he wanted to stay as he's from central Ontario and wanted to be close to family. He wanted to go after because he didn't want to be a part of a rebuild. Karlsson didn't say he wasn't going to resign until after the announcement too. The money they offered him was too late at that point and a PR move. They knew he wasn't going to accept. Hockey Central (Doug Maclean, Nick Kypreos) were very critical of the Senators for handling it like that, it was widely covered on TSN and Sportsnet. After those two were gone, the others snowballed after. They weren't bad with those guys, they made the conferences finals and was one overtime goal away from making the finals. You're right in that the Rangers are being more aggressive rebuilding than teams like Anaheim and Detroit, but they also need to have be more aggressive because they have the highest ticket prices in the league. But they have given up pretty decent pieces in order to due to do so, not like the other rebuilding teams like LA. That's more than fine for both fanbases. LA probably has the best prospect pool in the league. There's nothing wrong with their approach. With the Rangers, just them missing the playoffs for the last two years has the majority of fans (not me) being very impatient. Guess it's the New York mindset lol. It would be great to have even the minimal shot at the lottery like I was saying previously to get the potential bump into contender sooner than later, but I wouldn't lose sleep over picking around 12-15. I agree, LA and Anaheim did have to be good teams for people to be there. Same with Chicago. Nobody wanted to be in Chicago when they were bad. The same thing with Arizona and Florida. These cities are destinations as well; they're not Edmonton or Winnipeg. I don't think any huge free agents have gone there because they've never been a true contender, plus who knows what they've heard regarding about those teams potentially relocating. New York is most definitely a destination, of course it has it's appeal. With Panarin, it being New York combined that the other two teams making the final offers being the Islanders and Panthers, the destination and potential core to have some success could/would/should have sealed it. With Niedermayer, I should have said he went to try to win a cup with his brother. They were contenders and just landed Pronger. I'm not saying that the Rangers or teams in the middle need a franchise player like Detroit does. They obviously don't. I just like the added entertainment and excitement that comes along with the draft lottery dude. It's not a perfect system. We can disagree on it, that's more than fine. I respect your opinion, and like I said previously, I actually agree with you, I was playing devil's advocate for the sake of me being a fan of a team in the middle. Detroit only having an 18% chance is pretty insane and they are taking their beating now like you were saying. In regards to your last sentence and being a Rangers/Red Wings fan, I agree. The only thing that I wasn't agreeing with was changing the lottery odds because of the pandemic. I just thought that the %'s of where teams end up should have stayed the same as this was the plan until the virus hit. They just made the announcement regarding the lottery and it looks like it'll stay the same, so I'm happy about that. At worst, Detroit can still get a franchise player at #4, especially this year. I just like that there is that incentive not to tank like Buffalo in 2015. In my post about Chicago, it's that I like that there's a potential consolation for not tanking. Maybe it's because I played for a junior hockey team that purposely tanked and it was infuriating, but I hate tanking. Chicago didn't look like a playoff team, same with St. Louis, and both teams got rewarded for not blowing up their teams and still trying to win. Chicago with the pick, St. Louis with the cup. Both teams could have easily gave up and they didn't. I applaud that. They weren't like Buffalo in 2015. And I agree that the coaching and development also has everything to do with it. Ottawa had shit ownership. Everyone has known that for years. They were gonna make a push for contention while they still thought they had a good squad, but it turned out to be a pumpkin. Karlsson didn't make a statement on it in order to leave it open for him to leave. How many captains avoid making a statement when they are going to stay? We're dealing with the same thing in St. Louis with Pietrangelo. He's being professional, just like Karlsson. Not making any statement either way. But that's so if he gets a good enough offer, which we cannot match with this no-longer inflating cap, he can leave and say that he gave them a chance. And Pietrangelo is going to give the Blues a chance, especially considering he just won a Cup here. But undecided usually means they're leaning toward leaving. In this case, Petro is leaving for money. Karlsson left both to get on a better team and get paid. You don't offer a guy who is on the fence a giant contract for PR, because what if he accepts it? Ottawa needed to get to the cap floor anyway. My point isn't that the Rangers have been more aggressive but that ANY team with a great core has paid to get there. Colorado paid to get Byram. Ottawa paid to get Brannstrom. Everyone costs something. Fox basically pushed his way to NY basically the same way Vesey did. Yes, you had to pay to get him but what other young talented defenseman is forcing his team's hand to go to a non-playoff team? NY is in a fantastic spot, and you should be really encouraged by both having a stud core and likely having another top 14 pick to go with that. And I do think that while the Islanders have ownership and arena issues, their team-building and player development is really good. I think them and the Rangers are in for a great rivalry coming up. Dobson is going to be great, and their system already works with average goalies like Varly. Once Sorokin hits his stride, they could be a great defensive team. I would put LA about 4th or 5th in the prospect pool. I like Turcotte a lot and Bjornfot, but I don't get the hype on Kaliyev and their track record of developing dynamic forward essentially starts and ends with Kopitar. I think we are mostly on the same page. I get you as a Rangers fan wanting a top player, who wouldn't? But like with Chicago. It wasn't just that they didn't tank. It's that they were an actually talented team who gave teams in the Central problems. I honestly think they were a notably better team than Minnesota that season, and had the season been a little longer I think they make the playoffs. And it kills me to say those things about my team's biggest rival. But it's true. I don't think the bottom lottery teams should be rewarded for being better teams. But there's no real way to quantify and punish tanking in the NHL, especially when it's not as egregious as it is in other sports. Detroit sucked out loud this year. Could they have made more moves and ended up winning some more games? Probably. But they still would have had a long way to go to not be a bottom 5 team in the league. And I can't find it in me to argue that better teams should have a higher chance than them to get possibly generational players like Lafreniere. On Shestyorkin, what do you think his ceiling is? I've heard better than Vasilievsky before, and that's currently pretty high praise. But I do wonder if he will level off like Price did who was the biggest recent can't miss goalie.
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 27, 2020 5:01:31 GMT -5
Ottawa announced the rebuild publicly before telling the players. Not sure where you live or how much media there is in your area, but Duchene publicly said he was livid that the team announced it before the players were approached. He said he wanted to stay as he's from central Ontario and wanted to be close to family. He wanted to go after because he didn't want to be a part of a rebuild. Karlsson didn't say he wasn't going to resign until after the announcement too. The money they offered him was too late at that point and a PR move. They knew he wasn't going to accept. Hockey Central (Doug Maclean, Nick Kypreos) were very critical of the Senators for handling it like that, it was widely covered on TSN and Sportsnet. After those two were gone, the others snowballed after. They weren't bad with those guys, they made the conferences finals and was one overtime goal away from making the finals. You're right in that the Rangers are being more aggressive rebuilding than teams like Anaheim and Detroit, but they also need to have be more aggressive because they have the highest ticket prices in the league. But they have given up pretty decent pieces in order to due to do so, not like the other rebuilding teams like LA. That's more than fine for both fanbases. LA probably has the best prospect pool in the league. There's nothing wrong with their approach. With the Rangers, just them missing the playoffs for the last two years has the majority of fans (not me) being very impatient. Guess it's the New York mindset lol. It would be great to have even the minimal shot at the lottery like I was saying previously to get the potential bump into contender sooner than later, but I wouldn't lose sleep over picking around 12-15. I agree, LA and Anaheim did have to be good teams for people to be there. Same with Chicago. Nobody wanted to be in Chicago when they were bad. The same thing with Arizona and Florida. These cities are destinations as well; they're not Edmonton or Winnipeg. I don't think any huge free agents have gone there because they've never been a true contender, plus who knows what they've heard regarding about those teams potentially relocating. New York is most definitely a destination, of course it has it's appeal. With Panarin, it being New York combined that the other two teams making the final offers being the Islanders and Panthers, the destination and potential core to have some success could/would/should have sealed it. With Niedermayer, I should have said he went to try to win a cup with his brother. They were contenders and just landed Pronger. I'm not saying that the Rangers or teams in the middle need a franchise player like Detroit does. They obviously don't. I just like the added entertainment and excitement that comes along with the draft lottery dude. It's not a perfect system. We can disagree on it, that's more than fine. I respect your opinion, and like I said previously, I actually agree with you, I was playing devil's advocate for the sake of me being a fan of a team in the middle. Detroit only having an 18% chance is pretty insane and they are taking their beating now like you were saying. In regards to your last sentence and being a Rangers/Red Wings fan, I agree. The only thing that I wasn't agreeing with was changing the lottery odds because of the pandemic. I just thought that the %'s of where teams end up should have stayed the same as this was the plan until the virus hit. They just made the announcement regarding the lottery and it looks like it'll stay the same, so I'm happy about that. At worst, Detroit can still get a franchise player at #4, especially this year. I just like that there is that incentive not to tank like Buffalo in 2015. In my post about Chicago, it's that I like that there's a potential consolation for not tanking. Maybe it's because I played for a junior hockey team that purposely tanked and it was infuriating, but I hate tanking. Chicago didn't look like a playoff team, same with St. Louis, and both teams got rewarded for not blowing up their teams and still trying to win. Chicago with the pick, St. Louis with the cup. Both teams could have easily gave up and they didn't. I applaud that. They weren't like Buffalo in 2015. And I agree that the coaching and development also has everything to do with it. Ottawa had shit ownership. Everyone has known that for years. They were gonna make a push for contention while they still thought they had a good squad, but it turned out to be a pumpkin. Karlsson didn't make a statement on it in order to leave it open for him to leave. How many captains avoid making a statement when they are going to stay? We're dealing with the same thing in St. Louis with Pietrangelo. He's being professional, just like Karlsson. Not making any statement either way. But that's so if he gets a good enough offer, which we cannot match with this no-longer inflating cap, he can leave and say that he gave them a chance. And Pietrangelo is going to give the Blues a chance, especially considering he just won a Cup here. But undecided usually means they're leaning toward leaving. In this case, Petro is leaving for money. Karlsson left both to get on a better team and get paid. You don't offer a guy who is on the fence a giant contract for PR, because what if he accepts it? Ottawa needed to get to the cap floor anyway. My point isn't that the Rangers have been more aggressive but that ANY team with a great core has paid to get there. Colorado paid to get Byram. Ottawa paid to get Brannstrom. Everyone costs something. Fox basically pushed his way to NY basically the same way Vesey did. Yes, you had to pay to get him but what other young talented defenseman is forcing his team's hand to go to a non-playoff team? NY is in a fantastic spot, and you should be really encouraged by both having a stud core and likely having another top 14 pick to go with that. And I do think that while the Islanders have ownership and arena issues, their team-building and player development is really good. I think them and the Rangers are in for a great rivalry coming up. Dobson is going to be great, and their system already works with average goalies like Varly. Once Sorokin hits his stride, they could be a great defensive team. I would put LA about 4th or 5th in the prospect pool. I like Turcotte a lot and Bjornfot, but I don't get the hype on Kaliyev and their track record of developing dynamic forward essentially starts and ends with Kopitar. I think we are mostly on the same page. I get you as a Rangers fan wanting a top player, who wouldn't? But like with Chicago. It wasn't just that they didn't tank. It's that they were an actually talented team who gave teams in the Central problems. I honestly think they were a notably better team than Minnesota that season, and had the season been a little longer I think they make the playoffs. And it kills me to say those things about my team's biggest rival. But it's true. I don't think the bottom lottery teams should be rewarded for being better teams. But there's no real way to quantify and punish tanking in the NHL, especially when it's not as egregious as it is in other sports. Detroit sucked out loud this year. Could they have made more moves and ended up winning some more games? Probably. But they still would have had a long way to go to not be a bottom 5 team in the league. And I can't find it in me to argue that better teams should have a higher chance than them to get possibly generational players like Lafreniere. On Shestyorkin, what do you think his ceiling is? I've heard better than Vasilievsky before, and that's currently pretty high praise. But I do wonder if he will level off like Price did who was the biggest recent can't miss goalie. Dobson is going to be a stud. He trains with Crosby, Marchand, Mackinnon, etc in Halifax in the summer. There's a youtube guy named John Moore that films them from time to time if you're interested. He also does pretty good snippets of QMJHL prospects. Those guys all had strong praise for him and I remember an article saying he held his own in battle drills when the others were going hard and they didn't take it easy on him. They get other guys to come in from outside the area too like Taylor Hall and Jack Hughes. I wouldn't be opposed to the bottom team getting bumped up to 25/33%, or even higher. Too early to tell about Shestyorkin, at least from me. I had a hard time watching them last year due to scheduling and life getting in the way. I didn't get to see him much other than game highlights on nhl.com. I've liked his demeanour and what I've seen so far, so I'm optimistic, but I have the same thoughts about him leveling off once the league gets a feel for his tendencies, weaknesses, etc and get a playbook on him. What are your current thoughts on Binnington? Wasn't able to see him much this year either. The Blues are actually my team from the west, have been since the 90's. They have my favourite sweaters in the league. Was a big fan of Hull, MacInnis, Cujo, Shanny. I was really excited when Gretzky got traded there, back then I thought it meant an automatic cup haha. When they won last year, I posted a picture of when I was about 8 wearing a Blues hat and holding a team banner. I still have the hat. When I was a kid I got a GT snow racer that came with a Brett Hull poster. It was up for at least 10 years. I've rooted for other teams when it's just jumping on the bandwagon and I don't really care about the results, but the Rangers and Blues have been my lifelong two.
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