sfvega
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Post by sfvega on Jun 1, 2020 22:54:14 GMT -5
Malone and Payton on the Lakers, send tweet. Well Shaq was after them but yeah they were def ring chasing and Karl decided to retire while Payton did get his with the Heat with Shaq anyway Depending on next team DeMarcus Cousins goes too he will be the next case of ring hunting after being on Warriors and Lakers and with his legs essentially gone who knows how effective he will be I can't believe I forgot Cousins. Man, that was just kinda sad all the way around. Being injured and joining the most egregiously powerful super team only to get injured again, have the star of that team suffer the same Achillies injury, and end up without a ring anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 23:04:55 GMT -5
LBJ leaving the Cavs the first time was perfectly fine. The issue was intentionally creating a super team (via mid season tampering) with two other stars. At the time no other superstar in NBA history, right in the prime of their career, did anything close to what LeBron initially did. Now free agents leaving and either creating super teams artificially or joining them is common place. KD just followed the blueprint LBJ handed him, but LeBron was the first. And don't get it twisted about returning to the Cavs. The Heat just got slaughtered by the Spurs, Wade was going to be 33 after missing nearly 30 games, and Bosh was about to turn 30 after spending 4 years neutering his own game to appease James. That Heat team was going to decline. The Cavs on the other hand had a 22 year old Kyrie and a #1 pick that LeGM knew he could trade for more help (Love). He didn't just randomly finish the 2014 season wanting to redeem himself in Cleveland. Everything he does is strategic and calculated. There's no denying his talent, and coming back from 3-1 down to beat the Warriors is definitely a huge plus on his legacy, but there's definitely a bunch of red flags there for me. It's a red flag that he was basically the GM for a championship team in addition to being their best player? Are we holding it against Michael that he vetoed the Scottie trade? Not to mention most of his time in the playoffs in Cleveland was spent with banged up Kyrie or Love or both. Nobody thought LeBron went back to Cleveland to go slumming again. What a revelation. I was responding to the quote that said the Cavs were a lottery team before LeBron returned. That’s misleading. If you have a budding young star and a #1 pick belonging to (at the time) a very highly regarded player (Wiggins) that was a huge trade piece, and then just drop the best player in the game on that squad, guess what? It’s not a lottery team. He wasn’t going back to right a wrong. He was going back because it was a better situation than the one he was leaving. Redeeming himself in Ohio was just icing on the cake. The Jordan comparison doesn’t work because he was already in Chicago and won multiple titles with Pippen when he vetoed the Scottie trade. Jordan wasn’t a free agent making chess moves before he signed with a team, he was already there. LeBron knew where the Wiggins pick was going. No one is saying LBJ had to slum it anywhere, but just call a spade a spade. Two times in his prime he put himself on teams that were going to be damn near impossible to beat, especially in the East. He didn’t have to spend years getting humbled and then have his GM organically build a roster around him like MJ did. He spent years getting humbled and then told his two superstar friends “wouldn’t it be cool if we teamed up and made the league unfair?” Which makes his loss to Dallas that year (which they had no business losing) even worse because even with a stacked team he needed a season to become the man on that squad.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on Jun 1, 2020 23:23:55 GMT -5
It's a red flag that he was basically the GM for a championship team in addition to being their best player? Are we holding it against Michael that he vetoed the Scottie trade? Not to mention most of his time in the playoffs in Cleveland was spent with banged up Kyrie or Love or both. Nobody thought LeBron went back to Cleveland to go slumming again. What a revelation. I was responding to the quote that said the Cavs were a lottery team before LeBron returned. That’s misleading. If you have a budding young star and a #1 pick belonging to (at the time) a very highly regarded player (Wiggins) that was a huge trade piece, and then just drop the best player in the game on that squad, guess what? It’s not a lottery team. He wasn’t going back to right a wrong. He was going back because it was a better situation than the one he was leaving. Redeeming himself in Ohio was just icing on the cake. The Jordan comparison doesn’t work because he was already in Chicago and won multiple titles with Pippen when he vetoed the Scottie trade. Jordan wasn’t a free agent making chess moves before he signed with a team, he was already there. LeBron knew where the Wiggins pick was going. No one is saying LBJ had to slum it anywhere, but just call a spade a spade. Two times in his prime he put himself on teams that were going to be damn near impossible to beat, especially in the East. He didn’t have to spend years getting humbled and then have his GM organically build a roster around him like MJ did. He spent years getting humbled and then told his two superstar friends “wouldn’t it be cool if we teamed up and made the league unfair?” Which makes his loss to Dallas that year (which they had no business losing) even worse because even with a stacked team he needed a season to become the man on that squad. The Cleveland situation boils down to what are they if LeBron doesn't return? What do Kyrie and Wiggins win? The first round of the playoffs, probably. They sure as shit aren't going to 4 Finals. It doesn't matter than Jordan and Pip were together before and won championships before. The bottom line in MJ forced their hand, that they wouldn't have otherwise done, in order to further his chances and ultimately win a championship. You can't be fine with one (or even praise it) and call another a red flag in the same breath. Didn't have to slum it? Did you watch the NBA before 2010, or is it still saved in the DVR and you're gonna get around to it one day or..... LeBron left Cleveland because they were doing the absolute minimum to really contend for a title. The got routinely beat by the first incarnation of the coordinated superteam. Did you want him to stay in Cleveland? Do you think he ever had a shot at winning before he had the absolute team that he wanted? Did you begrudge KG for leaving Minny? It's basically he can stay in Cleveland and keep not winning titles and have that used against him or join a great team and have that used against him.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 2, 2020 8:45:55 GMT -5
Wiggins a huge trade piece? Minnesota got f***ed on that trade, they pretty much gave away Kevin Love for free.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 8:53:34 GMT -5
I was responding to the quote that said the Cavs were a lottery team before LeBron returned. That’s misleading. If you have a budding young star and a #1 pick belonging to (at the time) a very highly regarded player (Wiggins) that was a huge trade piece, and then just drop the best player in the game on that squad, guess what? It’s not a lottery team. He wasn’t going back to right a wrong. He was going back because it was a better situation than the one he was leaving. Redeeming himself in Ohio was just icing on the cake. The Jordan comparison doesn’t work because he was already in Chicago and won multiple titles with Pippen when he vetoed the Scottie trade. Jordan wasn’t a free agent making chess moves before he signed with a team, he was already there. LeBron knew where the Wiggins pick was going. No one is saying LBJ had to slum it anywhere, but just call a spade a spade. Two times in his prime he put himself on teams that were going to be damn near impossible to beat, especially in the East. He didn’t have to spend years getting humbled and then have his GM organically build a roster around him like MJ did. He spent years getting humbled and then told his two superstar friends “wouldn’t it be cool if we teamed up and made the league unfair?” Which makes his loss to Dallas that year (which they had no business losing) even worse because even with a stacked team he needed a season to become the man on that squad. The Cleveland situation boils down to what are they if LeBron doesn't return? What do Kyrie and Wiggins win? The first round of the playoffs, probably. They sure as shit aren't going to 4 Finals. It doesn't matter than Jordan and Pip were together before and won championships before. The bottom line in MJ forced their hand, that they wouldn't have otherwise done, in order to further his chances and ultimately win a championship. You can't be fine with one (or even praise it) and call another a red flag in the same breath. Didn't have to slum it? Did you watch the NBA before 2010, or is it still saved in the DVR and you're gonna get around to it one day or..... LeBron left Cleveland because they were doing the absolute minimum to really contend for a title. The got routinely beat by the first incarnation of the coordinated superteam. Did you want him to stay in Cleveland? Do you think he ever had a shot at winning before he had the absolute team that he wanted? Did you begrudge KG for leaving Minny? It's basically he can stay in Cleveland and keep not winning titles and have that used against him or join a great team and have that used against him. Again, the Jordan comparison doesn’t work. No one said a team can’t appease its star player. Every superstar in the top 5 in the league will have the ability to impact roster changes. Orgs know how important those players are and will cater to them for that reason. The point was LeBron was making these moves BEFORE signing with a team. Picture two scenarios, one is Jordan didn’t want Pipp traded, and the other is a prime Jordan conspires with Magic and Bird (or pick any two stars) to form a super team together. There is a HUGE difference there. Not even close to the same thing. Again, I said I don’t blame LBJ for leaving Cleveland the first time. He had a bad roster and a bad GM. That doesn’t mean he had to intentionally try to create unbeatable teams elsewhere. That’s going to look suspect on his resume, just like no one except his d-riders takes KD’s rings seriously. Also, re: Celtics. Clearly McHale did Ainge a favor in the Garnett trade but here’s the reality: Pierce was drafted by the Celts. Rondo drafted by the Celts. They traded the #5 pick in the draft for Ray Allen. They traded Al Jefferson and a bunch of pieces including two draft picks for Garnett. One of those picks could have been Steph Curry if the Wolves knew what the hell they were doing. So while it’s true LBJ likely got his Miami inspiration from the Celtics group, a GM creating a super team versus players doing it themselves is going to be perceived differently.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 2, 2020 8:56:09 GMT -5
Wiggins a huge trade piece? Minnesota got f***ed on that trade, they pretty much gave away Kevin Love for free. That wasn't the thinking at the time Wiggins was a big trade piece. He was a raw tools guy who was supposed to be an all around player
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 8:56:11 GMT -5
Wiggins a huge trade piece? Minnesota got f***ed on that trade, they pretty much gave away Kevin Love for free. That’s in hindsight. Wiggins was very highly rated in 2014. Six years later he clearly did not live up to expectations but you make moves at the time not in hindsight.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 2, 2020 8:59:00 GMT -5
Point blank is LBJ did not go back to the Cavs out the goodness of his heart
He saw an emerging PG in Kyrie who was clearly going to be great and a bunch of young trade pieces that can be flipped for better players if need be. LeBron could mold the team as he wanted and they won a chip for it. Now will see if the same happens with Lakers
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 2, 2020 8:59:50 GMT -5
Wiggins a huge trade piece? Minnesota got f***ed on that trade, they pretty much gave away Kevin Love for free. That’s in hindsight. Wiggins was very highly rated in 2014. Six years later he clearly did not live up to expectations but you make moves at the time not in hindsight. You trade an all NBA player for someone and it should be a future star at least. Also record wise they actually got worse with the trade.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 9:10:43 GMT -5
That’s in hindsight. Wiggins was very highly rated in 2014. Six years later he clearly did not live up to expectations but you make moves at the time not in hindsight. You trade an all NBA player for someone and it should be a future star at least. Also record wise they actually got worse with the trade. But again, that’s after knowing the end result. Wiggins at the time was seen as a very high upside talent with superstar potential. Maybe going to the Wolves was his downfall, a better run org might have helped him come closer to his ceiling (maybe the Warriors will have better luck), but the Wolves don’t make that trade if they have a crystal ball and know what 2020 Wiggins would look like. You make moves based on information at the time.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 2, 2020 9:10:43 GMT -5
That’s in hindsight. Wiggins was very highly rated in 2014. Six years later he clearly did not live up to expectations but you make moves at the time not in hindsight. You trade an all NBA player for someone and it should be a future star at least. Also record wise they actually got worse with the trade. He was projected to be a future star If he was right he could be as high as Vince Carter and his bottom was a Rudy Gay. He ended up more Rudy Gay then VC
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 2, 2020 9:14:54 GMT -5
You trade an all NBA player for someone and it should be a future star at least. Also record wise they actually got worse with the trade. But again, that’s after knowing the end result. Wiggins at the time was seen as a very high upside talent with superstar potential. Maybe going to the Wolves was his downfall, a better run org might have helped him come closer to his ceiling (maybe the Warriors will have better luck), but the Wolves don’t make that trade if they have a crystal ball and know what 2020 Wiggins would look like. You make moves based on information at the time. Yea, as I just said people had his ceiling as high as Vince Carter He's had a good season or two and it is easy to forget his 3rd year in the league at age 21 he averaged 24 PPG on 45% shooting. The upside was there but he never was consistent and the knock against him is he's lazy
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on Jun 2, 2020 10:56:26 GMT -5
The Cleveland situation boils down to what are they if LeBron doesn't return? What do Kyrie and Wiggins win? The first round of the playoffs, probably. They sure as shit aren't going to 4 Finals. It doesn't matter than Jordan and Pip were together before and won championships before. The bottom line in MJ forced their hand, that they wouldn't have otherwise done, in order to further his chances and ultimately win a championship. You can't be fine with one (or even praise it) and call another a red flag in the same breath. Didn't have to slum it? Did you watch the NBA before 2010, or is it still saved in the DVR and you're gonna get around to it one day or..... LeBron left Cleveland because they were doing the absolute minimum to really contend for a title. The got routinely beat by the first incarnation of the coordinated superteam. Did you want him to stay in Cleveland? Do you think he ever had a shot at winning before he had the absolute team that he wanted? Did you begrudge KG for leaving Minny? It's basically he can stay in Cleveland and keep not winning titles and have that used against him or join a great team and have that used against him. Again, the Jordan comparison doesn’t work. No one said a team can’t appease its star player. Every superstar in the top 5 in the league will have the ability to impact roster changes. Orgs know how important those players are and will cater to them for that reason. The point was LeBron was making these moves BEFORE signing with a team. Picture two scenarios, one is Jordan didn’t want Pipp traded, and the other is a prime Jordan conspires with Magic and Bird (or pick any two stars) to form a super team together. There is a HUGE difference there. Not even close to the same thing. Again, I said I don’t blame LBJ for leaving Cleveland the first time. He had a bad roster and a bad GM. That doesn’t mean he had to intentionally try to create unbeatable teams elsewhere. That’s going to look suspect on his resume, just like no one except his d-riders takes KD’s rings seriously. Also, re: Celtics. Clearly McHale did Ainge a favor in the Garnett trade but here’s the reality: Pierce was drafted by the Celts. Rondo drafted by the Celts. They traded the #5 pick in the draft for Ray Allen. They traded Al Jefferson and a bunch of pieces including two draft picks for Garnett. One of those picks could have been Steph Curry if the Wolves knew what the hell they were doing. So while it’s true LBJ likely got his Miami inspiration from the Celtics group, a GM creating a super team versus players doing it themselves is going to be perceived differently. Before he signed isn't a big deal though. MJ's choice was to play with another All Star rather than a rookie T-Mac for a better chance at another ring. True, the Cavs also had Kyrie. But the Bulls had a great supporting cast and a GOAT coach. MJ told Krause and the Bulls that he wouldn't play for another coach and didn't want to be part of a rebuild. LeBron was also not interested in a young, non-contending team. MJ forced them to contend at the cost of young talent, same as LBJ. And I don't get why that's a bad thing for either. I also don't get how these are WILDLY different scenarios based on contract status, other than the fact that it is tampering. Also, Kawhi just did the same thing and nobody shits on him for it. And unlike Love, PG actually plays defense. If LeBron went to the Celtics, Lakers, or Spurs, he's bitch-made. If he went to the Heat, he's making it unfair. If he stays in Cleveland or goes to any other number of franchises, he stands the same slim chances of winning a title. You didn't answer the KG question at all. And if the price negates everything, I guess the #1 overall pick does it. Rondo and Pierce alone aren't a legit contender and are probably topping out the same as KG's teams did. Good teams that got the brakes beat off them against the best. The Heat drafted Wade. Lots of teams are great at drafting one of their big 3. Again, you're making it out to be a bad thing that LeBron was a part of big moves instead of the GM. How does that take credit AWAY from him? That's crazy. Also, as much as everyone wants to make Steph seem like this phenom, there were big questions at the time about him at the draft. And I liked the dude at Davidson, but Rubio at the time EVERYONE thought was a better prospect.
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Gus Richlen Was Wrong
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Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on Jun 2, 2020 14:10:40 GMT -5
Draft lotteries are terrible ideas. Just do a regular draft like NFL does.
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Jun 2, 2020 14:26:44 GMT -5
Draft lotteries are terrible ideas. Just do a regular draft like NFL does. I agree. "But Val, they are TANKING!" So? If a team sucks shit on purpose, quit supporting them if it's that important to you. It's that easy. Besides, it's not like the #1 Draft Pick is a surefire slam dunk hall of fame caliber guy. Sure you might get the next LeBron or Kyrie, but the odds also say you might get the next Greg Oden, Wiggins or Kwame Brown.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 2, 2020 19:58:12 GMT -5
Point blank is LBJ did not go back to the Cavs out the goodness of his heart He saw an emerging PG in Kyrie who was clearly going to be great and a bunch of young trade pieces that can be flipped for better players if need be. LeBron could mold the team as he wanted and they won a chip for it. Now will see if the same happens with Lakers You make a good point that I could see, but why not just stay in Miami to win more chips? It was possible.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 2, 2020 20:13:29 GMT -5
Point blank is LBJ did not go back to the Cavs out the goodness of his heart He saw an emerging PG in Kyrie who was clearly going to be great and a bunch of young trade pieces that can be flipped for better players if need be. LeBron could mold the team as he wanted and they won a chip for it. Now will see if the same happens with Lakers You make a good point that I could see, but why not just stay in Miami to win more chips? It was possible. I doubt it. DWade was starting to regress because of injuries and it wasn’t long before Bosh had the blood cots. LBJ did the right thing leaving miami for his career. If he stayed with the heat he would’ve had to carry the team by himself just like he did the first time in Cleveland. There were also petty bs going on between him and Pat Riley about Riley not respecting Lebron’s inner circle more.
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tenshi
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Post by tenshi on Jun 2, 2020 22:08:35 GMT -5
I don't mind the proposed 20 team "group stage" for the NBA playoffs once they resume playing. It adds an element of unpredictability given that all teams are at the will of a draw to see which other teams are in their group and that adds importance to all group games. Every game matters, point differential can be the X factor separating a team from moving onto the next round and being left behind, more teams are added as the NBA's answer to "wild cards" in other leagues, which could open new match-ups along the way, and, if my math adds up, each team would have to play 4 games to move onto the next stage instead of playing up to 7 in a conventional series. More teams, more chances, more unpredictability. I'm all for it.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jun 2, 2020 22:12:35 GMT -5
When you take framing pitches into account I think Russell Martin for a while was one of the most underrated catchers in baseball, maybe just behind Molina and Posey at his peak.
Right now Realmuto is the guy, but I'm talking late 2000's and early 2010s.
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Post by Lupin the Third on Jun 2, 2020 22:16:38 GMT -5
Draft lotteries are terrible ideas. Just do a regular draft like NFL does. I agree. "But Val, they are TANKING!" So? If a team sucks shit on purpose, quit supporting them if it's that important to you. It's that easy. Besides, it's not like the #1 Draft Pick is a surefire slam dunk hall of fame caliber guy. Sure you might get the next LeBron or Kyrie, but the odds also say you might get the next Greg Oden, Wiggins or Kwame Brown. Plus, we get one of the greatest sporting events known to man..... {Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}
TANK BOWL!!!!!
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