Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 19, 2019 21:15:00 GMT -5
Personally for me AEW is lacking BIG MOMENTS/Storylines.I know we mock WWE for only focusing on moments.
But which big moment have we gotten lately?Kinda like Ripley winning the title/The Brand Wars.They had the start of the elite vs circle but not much deeper.
This Dark Order Story could be the start of those. Or Moxley/JB/Allin winning the title/big moments
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Dec 19, 2019 21:25:27 GMT -5
I think this is what Jericho is getting at, there's a lot that needs tightened up. They're still doing fine, but if they ever expect to grow they have to do what they did the first few weeks. While Sports Entertainment is kind of a dirty word, they've had their biggest success when they were mixing their signature in ring action with the balls to the wall insanity that American pro wrestling is known for outside the ring. The first several weeks weren't just hot because it was all new, but because they had a clear story they were building to. They had Cody Vs. Jericho being built, a beginning of Inner Circle Vs. The Elite, Moxley Vs. Omega, Pac Vs. Hangman. You had some must see matches that were being built to with segments, great matches and fire promos. So they need to get Omega on the mic, have him talk up his impending showdown with Pac, hit the ground running with Mox Vs. Jericho ASAP, Cody Vs. MJF could be the classice face heel dynamic pro wrestling is known for, and most importantly start having the Inner Circle act more like an actual stable again as opposed to a loose collection of heel wrestlers. Pretty much every Cody/Jericho segment leading up to their match was gold, and exactly the type of stuff AEW should have plastered all over the show. I know people laugh at "BRING BACK THE ATTITUDE ERA!!!1111!", but that type of format is solely missing in wrestling right now. The WWE can probably do "video game wrestling" just as well if not better than AEW. The one thing WWE can't do, and hasn't done for 15+ years, is be able to build characters and do compelling long-term storylines. This is where AEW needs to shine. If their 2 hour show is just going to be match-match-match-Jericho promo-match-match-match, it's not going to work over time. If they cut all their matches to 5 minutes or less, and just had a story driven show, they'd accomplish two things: 1) they'd have a distinct competitive advantage over WWE, and 2) they'd differentiate themselves enough to stand out. I disagree on the 5 minutes or less for the matches, but I agree that they need more promo time. One of the chief ways they've presented themselves as a WWE alternative is that they are in ring focused. That being said, they need to strike a happy medium. They got Jericho Vs. Mox to work with, they've got Kenny Vs Pac III to make happen, Dark Order Vignettes have been gold so they need to keep that up. They also have a lot of talent that the fans aren't overly familiar with, they need to give vignettes for them, give them some interview time, do something to introduce the rest of your roster.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 19, 2019 22:16:24 GMT -5
I don't agree on the silly stuff not being over, in fact Stunt, Luchasaurus, and other "Silly Gimmicks" have proven to draw numbers back to the viewership in ratings breakdowns in certain weeks. It's more how you present the gimmicks and get people to care. I think AEW's doing that for the more part but they need to do more for sure.
I thinKD ark Order is great, I think it's gonna give a lot of roster a platform to work, and already is starting to plant seeds for multiple arcs of the card, this is the kind of stuff you need to do to sell a gimmick as something legitimate while still in that line of wrestling hokeyness that has been around since the 80s
Do I think Omega and The Bucks should win more? Yes. Do I think there's a point to them losing? Also yes, considering The Elite since AEW formed have hit slumps in respective regards, which I think helps in terms of developing storylines. I get how it could look bad to a casual fan perspective, but I think in the long run it'll work fine. At least I woud hope so.
They still won in demos, which I think considering is great, and they'll only strive to make improvements. They have already proven they want to make improvements to the product and have in multiple ways. The company like three months old. For a three month old company, I'd say it's hitting a lot of marks. And hope it only continues to get better and improve.
It really sucks that we even need to have this "competition" at all, but at the very least it's made Wednesdays great.
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Dec 19, 2019 23:10:15 GMT -5
Jericho pretty much gave the edge to AEW, the moment he left, NXT pretty much won. They clearly missed Moxley.
Good to see Darby helping with the viewership, finally he is getting over with the casuals.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 19, 2019 23:18:07 GMT -5
I don't get the obsession with quarter hour ratings. Sure, maybe Marko Stunt didn't hurt AEW's quarter hour ratings the first time he was on, but the various indie-rific talent on display on AEW may well be a factor in the erosion of viewership.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 19, 2019 23:20:56 GMT -5
I’m really not buying some of the arguments being made; we can’t really sit here and say “but nothings happening on Dynamite!” or “where are the promos?” when we’re one week removed from an episode that got near universal praise for quality matches, promos, and build that people liked. The show’s been really damn good; I’m sympathetic to the argument that Kenny and the Bucks need to take the bull by the horns and not be afraid to book themselves to win more, but you can’t build a wrestling show around “big moments” because you simply can’t deliver that every week.
Fact is, this is a super young show with an audience that has very little crossover with WWE’s. It’s viewing habits aren’t fully established yet, it’s seemingly susceptible to wild swings in viewer numbers, and it’s not as embedded as the “will be there for anything the company puts on TV” installed base WWE has. It is what it is. All you can do is put on a show that keeps stories and characters moving forward and provides some solid action and, in turn, build your own loyal base that’ll tune in no matter what else is happening on TV that night, but it clearly doesn’t happen overnight.
Again, there are things to criticize, namely that it feels like the Elite guys booking themselves stronger would help in providing for more main event acts to go along with the clear draws that Jericho and Moxley are, but I’m baffled at some of what Meltzer’s complaining about right now, dude literally pulled a “that was like 2000 WCW” in his most recent review and now I’m looking at him like he has three heads (he did say he enjoyed most of the show, but he clearly dislikes gimmicks given how he spoke about Statlander and Dark Order).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 23:21:25 GMT -5
Pretty much every Cody/Jericho segment leading up to their match was gold, and exactly the type of stuff AEW should have plastered all over the show. I know people laugh at "BRING BACK THE ATTITUDE ERA!!!1111!", but that type of format is solely missing in wrestling right now. The WWE can probably do "video game wrestling" just as well if not better than AEW. The one thing WWE can't do, and hasn't done for 15+ years, is be able to build characters and do compelling long-term storylines. This is where AEW needs to shine. If their 2 hour show is just going to be match-match-match-Jericho promo-match-match-match, it's not going to work over time. If they cut all their matches to 5 minutes or less, and just had a story driven show, they'd accomplish two things: 1) they'd have a distinct competitive advantage over WWE, and 2) they'd differentiate themselves enough to stand out. I disagree on the 5 minutes or less for the matches, but I agree that they need more promo time. One of the chief ways they've presented themselves as a WWE alternative is that they are in ring focused. That being said, they need to strike a happy medium. They got Jericho Vs. Mox to work with, they've got Kenny Vs Pac III to make happen, Dark Order Vignettes have been gold so they need to keep that up. They also have a lot of talent that the fans aren't overly familiar with, they need to give vignettes for them, give them some interview time, do something to introduce the rest of your roster. Yeah I agree they need to act as if the audience doesn’t know these guys aside from the stars (Jericho, Mox, Cody) and give them vignettes, promo time, character development, etc. I’m just not a big fan of long matches unless it’s a PPV. I don’t know how today’s fans sit through 15-20 minute TV matches. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I feel like the casual fan would lean towards my thinking, while the hardcore fan would want more wrestling. Regardless like you said there needs to be a blend rather than 90% wrestling.
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 19, 2019 23:21:46 GMT -5
I don't agree on the silly stuff not being over, in fact Stunt, Luchasaurus, and other "Silly Gimmicks" have proven to draw numbers back to the viewership in ratings breakdowns in certain weeks. It's more how you present the gimmicks and get people to care. I think AEW's doing that for the more part but they need to do more for sure. I thinKD ark Order is great, I think it's gonna give a lot of roster a platform to work, and already is starting to plant seeds for multiple arcs of the card, this is the kind of stuff you need to do to sell a gimmick as something legitimate while still in that line of wrestling hokeyness that has been around since the 80s Do I think Omega and The Bucks should win more? Yes. Do I think there's a point to them losing? Also yes, considering The Elite since AEW formed have hit slumps in respective regards, which I think helps in terms of developing storylines. I get how it could look bad to a casual fan perspective, but I think in the long run it'll work fine. At least I woud hope so. They still won in demos, which I think considering is great, and they'll only strive to make improvements. They have already proven they want to make improvements to the product and have in multiple ways. The company like three months old. For a three month old company, I'd say it's hitting a lot of marks. And hope it only continues to get better and improve. It really sucks that we even need to have this "competition" at all, but at the very least it's made Wednesdays great. I don’t think it’s about the silly gimmicks being “over”, it’s about the mass appeal of such gimmicks to the casual/lapsed fan that AEW was said to be looking at gaining. And same thing with the Bucks and Omega losing. Sure that can be a compelling storyline but to those unfamiliar with them it doesn’t make them come across as stars when it’s your first exposure to them. They needed to be built up and presented as megastars from the jump so that a losing streak would even mean anything.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Dec 19, 2019 23:48:11 GMT -5
I mean, NXT did put forth a better show on paper. Even just looking at the card it was going to just be a much better show. The thing is that it never really seems that NXT can maintain the lead. Every once in a while they can put on a really big show, but they can't maintain from week to week. AEW on the other hand usually does put on shows of at least consistent quality. They've beaten AEW three times: Once when there was a promise of Raw and Smackdown retaliation, once in the Survivor Series Fallout and once with an uber stacked card. They always seem like they have to do something big to beat AEW, but AEW always seem to win without having to do much. Fair play to NXT for a great show but I'm not worried. I don't really get this argument. Building shows that people want to watch is the aim of the game isn't it?
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 19, 2019 23:56:13 GMT -5
I’m baffled at some of what Meltzer’s complaining about right now, dude literally pulled a “that was like 2000 WCW” in his most recent review and now I’m looking at him like he has three heads (he did say he enjoyed most of the show, but he clearly dislikes gimmicks given how he spoke about Statlander and Dark Order). Just wanted to chime in agreement on this. Meltzer just kinda went off on how AEW isn't the serious workrate based WWE alternative show he clearly wants it to be - as if lack of good matches is even remotely WWE's issue right now (with failure to make compelling characters and stories a far bigger issue, to my eye). He even used opposite arguments - he (rightly) used the reaction to Dark Order as evidence that that segment fell flat, yet actively dismisses the good reactions to Statlander's gimmick because it doesn't click for him. And like...AEW really can't be the workrate promotion. NJPW is continuing to make inroads to the US, and if all AEW had to offer was better matches than WWE, they wouldn't even be the best out there by that metric.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Dec 20, 2019 0:00:07 GMT -5
I mean, NXT did put forth a better show on paper. Even just looking at the card it was going to just be a much better show. The thing is that it never really seems that NXT can maintain the lead. Every once in a while they can put on a really big show, but they can't maintain from week to week. AEW on the other hand usually does put on shows of at least consistent quality. They've beaten AEW three times: Once when there was a promise of Raw and Smackdown retaliation, once in the Survivor Series Fallout and once with an uber stacked card. They always seem like they have to do something big to beat AEW, but AEW always seem to win without having to do much. Fair play to NXT for a great show but I'm not worried. I don't really get this argument. Building shows that people want to watch is the aim of the game isn't it? What I'm saying is that this is not an ordinary episode of NXT, and it did about as well as a below average episode of AEW. I'm not taking anything away from the fact that they built a show that people want to watch, and yes that is the goal. My point is that they don't seem to have it in them to beat AEW from week to week. After all they can't put out shows like that every week, and that seems to be the only way they ever win. It probably didn't come across the way I meant it to, but the idea here is that this isn't as bad a thing for AEW as it seems on paper.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Dec 20, 2019 0:04:43 GMT -5
I’m baffled at some of what Meltzer’s complaining about right now, dude literally pulled a “that was like 2000 WCW” in his most recent review and now I’m looking at him like he has three heads (he did say he enjoyed most of the show, but he clearly dislikes gimmicks given how he spoke about Statlander and Dark Order). Just wanted to chime in agreement on this. Meltzer just kinda went off on how AEW isn't the serious workrate based WWE alternative show he clearly wants it to be - as if lack of good matches is even remotely WWE's issue right now (with failure to make compelling characters and stories a far bigger issue, to my eye). He even used opposite arguments - he (rightly) used the reaction to Dark Order as evidence that that segment fell flat, yet actively dismisses the good reactions to Statlander's gimmick because it doesn't click for him. And like...AEW really can't be the workrate promotion. NJPW is continuing to make inroads to the US, and if all AEW had to offer was better matches than WWE, they wouldn't even be the best out there by that metric. They need to be the best of both approach. To a casual fan, NJPW is too serious, while WWE is getting too moronic for them. AEW's got to strike a happy medium. Also Dave's a moron if he thinks the gimmicks aren't working, the live crowd loves them, and that makes them come off better to the people at home.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 20, 2019 4:49:34 GMT -5
I don't agree on the silly stuff not being over, in fact Stunt, Luchasaurus, and other "Silly Gimmicks" have proven to draw numbers back to the viewership in ratings breakdowns in certain weeks. It's more how you present the gimmicks and get people to care. I think AEW's doing that for the more part but they need to do more for sure. I thinKD ark Order is great, I think it's gonna give a lot of roster a platform to work, and already is starting to plant seeds for multiple arcs of the card, this is the kind of stuff you need to do to sell a gimmick as something legitimate while still in that line of wrestling hokeyness that has been around since the 80s Do I think Omega and The Bucks should win more? Yes. Do I think there's a point to them losing? Also yes, considering The Elite since AEW formed have hit slumps in respective regards, which I think helps in terms of developing storylines. I get how it could look bad to a casual fan perspective, but I think in the long run it'll work fine. At least I woud hope so. They still won in demos, which I think considering is great, and they'll only strive to make improvements. They have already proven they want to make improvements to the product and have in multiple ways. The company like three months old. For a three month old company, I'd say it's hitting a lot of marks. And hope it only continues to get better and improve. It really sucks that we even need to have this "competition" at all, but at the very least it's made Wednesdays great. I don’t think it’s about the silly gimmicks being “over”, it’s about the mass appeal of such gimmicks to the casual/lapsed fan that AEW was said to be looking at gaining. And same thing with the Bucks and Omega losing. Sure that can be a compelling storyline but to those unfamiliar with them it doesn’t make them come across as stars when it’s your first exposure to them. They needed to be built up and presented as megastars from the jump so that a losing streak would even mean anything. Omega I think has been played well since it's been hinted at that he's breaking mentally, plus he's still had some of the best matches in AEW so far, whether losing or not the talent has been showcased to the fullest. As for the Bucks, I think it's important to show how good and unpredictable the tag team division is, that they DONT win every match. They've won a lot of matches, but a lot of teams ae really good, whether up and coming like Private Party, champs like SCU, or f***ing amazing like Lucha Bros or PNP. I think you gotta sell that, and make the division seem unpredictable as well I get wanting to draw in the lapsed fan as well, and wanting to make guys seem like legitimate deals, but I also enjoy the sheer unpredictability of AEW. It's refreshing to see a roster where I don't know who is gonna win almost every match that is presented. Maybe that ain't everyones cup of tea, but it's been one of my strong points of the brand so far.
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Steveweiser
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Post by Steveweiser on Dec 20, 2019 5:25:55 GMT -5
There's now been three instances (World Series, Thanksgiving and the news event on Wednesday night) where a big cultural event has led to people tuning out of Dynamite - fans are not as loyal to them as WWE fans are to NXT (in fact NXT went up this week). While AEW will be fine as they have good DVR/VOD viewing figures, Turner won't be so happy as live viewers keep reducing over time.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 20, 2019 6:55:37 GMT -5
There's now been three instances (World Series, Thanksgiving and the news event on Wednesday night) where a big cultural event has led to people tuning out of Dynamite - fans are not as loyal to them as WWE fans are to NXT (in fact NXT went up this week). While AEW will be fine as they have good DVR/VOD viewing figures, Turner won't be so happy as live viewers keep reducing over time. Yeah, that was part of my point before: as the new show on the block, Dynamite appears to have a pretty high viewership ceiling relative to the promotion's age and exposure (e.g. in the neighborhood of 850,000-900,000, possibly hitting or passing 1 million if the stars align), but also a lower floor due to its viewer base not being as rock solid as the more established WWE's (note: we can't know 100% what its base would be without NXT going head to head with it, of course). NXT deserves credit for building from its relatively lower starting rating numbers to a stronger floor than they had before (e.g. pretty consistently getting to 700,000 instead of 500,000), and it's likely a very solid floor given the core base of WWE viewers that are well established and consistent, but so far its ceiling doesn't seem as potentially high, likely due to some misplaced "oh, that's just the C show" stigma some fans might feel toward it. What sucks is that it feels like Wednesday should be THE wrestling night right now on mainstream cable given the overall quality of Dynamite and NXT over Raw and Smackdown, but combined viewership isn't hitting 1.5 million, let alone the 2 million the more established shows often get. But that's where the whole "marathon, not a sprint" meme does make sense: established brand names and viewership habits matter. As for Dynamite's future fate, though, I doubt them dipping into the 600,000's on nights where big events draw away from their numbers is going to concern Turner too much, given it still surpasses their early hopes for the show's weekly numbers, but where it might eventually hurt them is a few years from now when they try to negotiate a deal that's really lucrative for them than the current "just get us on air" deal they have now, since it's one less leg to stand on during negotiations. Doesn't mean they're screwed or anything, barring major slides in numbers over a prolonged stretch of time, so some of the talk there's been in some corners like "the company might not even be around in a couple of years" likely doesn't have much to back it up.
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Post by The Barber on Dec 20, 2019 7:25:34 GMT -5
Does anyone else feel like the WWE is hot shotting NXT?
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 20, 2019 7:55:29 GMT -5
Jericho pretty much gave the edge to AEW, the moment he left, NXT pretty much won. They clearly missed Moxley. Good to see Darby helping with the viewership, finally he is getting over with the casuals. Interesting note that Jericho has never lost to NXT in any of his quarters thus far.
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 20, 2019 8:21:18 GMT -5
Does anyone else feel like the WWE is hot shotting NXT? In what way? By putting out consistent, compelling TV? It’s not like they’re anywhere near running out of fresh matchups. They have plenty of talented folks that don’t even make TV or barely get a push.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 8:35:37 GMT -5
Meltzer says AEW fans want it to be like NXT. I don't, I find NXT to be dull with no characters, everyone just looks the same. There's only so many times I can appreciate a good wrestling match before wanting something more. Then again I wasn't a fan of ROH in the 2000s where everyone said how great it was. I grew up in the attitude era and I just wanna see an exciting weekly product with great stories, feuds and characters. I still think AEW is the best weekly wrestling show, they've had a lot of great episodes so far, hot crowds every week and some great moments.
2020 will be a big year for them to decide what sort of product they want to be. WCW became hot with the nWo angle. I feel AEW needs a moment like that to make people think "oh shit I need to watch this every Wednesday". The next 3-6 months will be interesting.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 20, 2019 9:41:22 GMT -5
My biggest takeaway is that they need to do more work to make their tag division a ratings draw. They put on consistently great matches and have compelling characters but it is not connecting the same way the top singles stars are. I think they can get there, but I think they need to have a compelling rivalry or angle driving that in 2020. Perhaps the Dark Order could figure into that. That gets to another point I've been seeing. Some people definitely did not like the Dark Order angle which is fine, I get it even as someone who enjoyed it. But I've seen takes saying of course AEW lost with that angle. No one knew they were doing that until literally the last four minutes. Maybe it ultimately turns off the viewers they had at that point but I have my doubts. It wasn't a hot angle by any means with the live crowd but I still want to see where it goes.
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