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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 20, 2019 17:11:09 GMT -5
And you didn't even mention Riddle, Tegan, Velveteen etc AEW has the ability to do that and they've gotten guys over from scratch but just not to that level They can raise guys but yeah to that level and as often as NXT does? Nah, I don't think so personally. I do like the fact they're trying to raise stars though but at the same time thye need to be a bit more selfish with the actual stars themselves. You need stars to make stars. Sure, you can have Omega lose to a new star but it has to make sense. It's like Triple H helping make Batista and Orton. I gradually happened because Trips was a star. The next 3-6 months will be really good for AEW I believe They need a few more known names. This will take the pressure off Omega, Bucks, Cody etc to help make people. Thus far they have done well in helping established acts like PAC, Mox etc remain up top but grabbing some of the other names will def be key I know people are a bit afraid of pushing the ex WWE guy but I don't think that will be a problem. AEW has really dne a good job of seperating incoming talent from their previous personality
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 17:17:45 GMT -5
They can raise guys but yeah to that level and as often as NXT does? Nah, I don't think so personally. I do like the fact they're trying to raise stars though but at the same time thye need to be a bit more selfish with the actual stars themselves. You need stars to make stars. Sure, you can have Omega lose to a new star but it has to make sense. It's like Triple H helping make Batista and Orton. I gradually happened because Trips was a star. The next 3-6 months will be really good for AEW I believe They need a few more known names. This will take the pressure off Omega, Bucks, Cody etc to help make people. Thus far they have done well in helping established acts like PAC, Mox etc remain up top but grabbing some of the other names will def be key I know people are a bit afraid of pushing the ex WWE guy but I don't think that will be a problem. AEW has really dne a good job of seperating incoming talent from their previous personality I've got no problem with them pushing ex-WWE talent as long as the talent is looking to help the newer stars like Darby. Like the Moxley/Darby series, right now that's clearly looking like Moxley will continue to beat him until Darby finally faces him and wins. Maybe Moxley will be a champion when it happens, maybe he won't be but that's how you use an ex-WWE guy. I also don't get the whole "damned if you push the Elite damned if you don't" thing either. You push them but don't push them too hard to where it looks like they're only out for themselves. Push them above most of the people except the upper class dudes and dudes you want in that upper level.
I wanna see Omega, the Bucks and Cody to be THOSE DUDES who are winning until they face the next guy on the block. That way when they're beaten you can look at that guy and go "damn, they really did it."
They only need to lose important matches.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 20, 2019 17:21:04 GMT -5
The next 3-6 months will be really good for AEW I believe They need a few more known names. This will take the pressure off Omega, Bucks, Cody etc to help make people. Thus far they have done well in helping established acts like PAC, Mox etc remain up top but grabbing some of the other names will def be key I know people are a bit afraid of pushing the ex WWE guy but I don't think that will be a problem. AEW has really dne a good job of seperating incoming talent from their previous personality I've got no problem with them pushing ex-WWE talent as long as the talent is looking to help the newer stars like Darby. Like the Moxley/Darby series, right now that's clearly looking like Moxley will continue to beat him until Darby finally faces him and wins. Maybe Moxley will be a champion when it happens, maybe he won't be but that's how you use an ex-WWE guy. I also don't get the whole "damned if you push the Elite damned if you don't" thing either. You push them but don't push them too hard to where it looks like they're only out for themselves. Push them above most of the people except the upper class dudes and dudes you want in that upper level.
I wanna see Omega, the Bucks and Cody to be THOSE DUDES who are winning until they face the next guy on the block. That way when they're beaten you can look at that guy and go "damn, they really did it."
They only need to lose important matches.
Which I’m digging. I think that daredevil style of Darby is going to bring in viewers. They are handling him with care and it’s basically the match rivalry that Mox himself should have gotten in WWE Sammy being another guy. Jericho is giving him all the rub he can get. Eventually when Sammy leaves or turns on Chris it’s going to be felt because he is treating him like a son There is a lot of good Shìt to like and time to make it happen
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 20, 2019 17:30:03 GMT -5
I get people being upset, but this is a ratings thread, and we really don't gotta be that serious. Points really get lost when you come at people like that, at that point it's just not worth it imo. Whatever. Would sure be nice if we had an AEW thread about AEW instead of NXT though. I think it's got enough essays about how great and unstoppable NXT is going to be in it now. The discussions will intertwine, it's inevitable about what company is doing right or wrong For the record I am very pro AEW and I advocate for their successes and defend A LOT of their shit. And I'll continue to do so unless something really goes south. NXT's good too though, and the fact of the matter is, I want both companies to do well because I just want good wrestling. I obviously want AEW to hit their stride more though because it's not a WWE product no matter how different NXT presents itself AEW will recover and continue to improve. Look at their track record of doing so already with storylines and characters, again I get your frustration but AEW's been alive for three months as a weekly TV program, and they're gonna have bumps in a road and people will criticize them like any company, but their PPV literally just sold out in under an hour. They're gonna be ok.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 17:31:24 GMT -5
I've got no problem with them pushing ex-WWE talent as long as the talent is looking to help the newer stars like Darby. Like the Moxley/Darby series, right now that's clearly looking like Moxley will continue to beat him until Darby finally faces him and wins. Maybe Moxley will be a champion when it happens, maybe he won't be but that's how you use an ex-WWE guy. I also don't get the whole "damned if you push the Elite damned if you don't" thing either. You push them but don't push them too hard to where it looks like they're only out for themselves. Push them above most of the people except the upper class dudes and dudes you want in that upper level.
I wanna see Omega, the Bucks and Cody to be THOSE DUDES who are winning until they face the next guy on the block. That way when they're beaten you can look at that guy and go "damn, they really did it."
They only need to lose important matches.
Which I’m digging. I think that daredevil style of Darby is going to bring in viewers. They are handling him with care and it’s basically the match rivalry that Mox himself should have gotten in WWE Sammy being another guy. Jericho is giving him all the rub he can get. Eventually when Sammy leaves or turns on Chris it’s going to be felt because he is treating him like a son There is a lot of good Shìt to like and time to make it happen Darby's one of their trump cards so yeah keeping him in play will definitely help in the long run. He's someone who has potential to crossover. Maybe the same for Sammy as well too, they're just 2 dudes who you look at and can go "alright, we can make something out of them." As long as they're healthy then yeah they'll be good. It's just all about booking and making sure the crowds connect with what they're putting out there. I've got faith AEW will ultimately find itself and get some crossover stars. We're still in the early period. The fact they've got 2 who we can see and go "alright, let's see what happens with them" is a plus.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Dec 21, 2019 8:09:05 GMT -5
Granted, I've not been watching, but going purely on numbers, the fact they've almost halved their weekly TV audience in less than three months can not be a good thing.
Edit: checking numbers, they've lost more than half of their initial viewing numbers.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Dec 21, 2019 8:21:49 GMT -5
I may be making this up, but weren't they expecting about 500,000 a week initially for AEW?
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Post by The Barber on Dec 21, 2019 8:23:21 GMT -5
Granted, I've not been watching, but going purely on numbers, the fact they've almost halved their weekly TV audience in less than three months can not be a good thing. Edit: checking numbers, they've lost more than half of their initial viewing numbers. Do you mean AEW or NXT?
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Post by The Barber on Dec 21, 2019 8:30:25 GMT -5
Does anyone else feel like the WWE is hot shotting NXT? In what way? By putting out consistent, compelling TV? It’s not like they’re anywhere near running out of fresh matchups. They have plenty of talented folks that don’t even make TV or barely get a push. But will those not on TV draw? Also, how long before the WWE can't deliver on the Takeover-like shows that the audience expects because they will get bored with the current roster or the roster gets called up after WrestleMania (or another time of the year) during a hot feud? Does anyone else feel like the WWE is hot shotting NXT? They've been hot shotting NXT since the moment they got on USA. To say otherwise is being naive. Exactly. Does anyone else feel like the WWE is hot shotting NXT? Nope, it's not a hotshot. A hotshot would be sending all of the main roster to NXT every week or numerous times when ratings get lower like most people were saying they'd do when AEW was winning all the time. A hotshot would be having constant title changes when the only title changes they've had are to 2 titles which makes sense. They're building NXT correctly through basic steps. I'll break it down.
- First they set the basic building blocks up with the first few weeks on USA. They show you how their 2 hours will be. Nothing wild but basically it sets the foundation for who will be the initial main stars on the brand. Undisputed Era, Ciampa, Shayna, Balor's return, basic stuff like that. Alongside that they establish it's midcard with the Riddles, Keith Lees, Dijaks and the rest. With this they're also showing how you can have multiple talent mixing in with others rather than being kept apart. - Next you get the Survivor Series stuff in which the NXT stars get more exposure by mingling with the main roster stars. Guys and girls getting rubs from the main roster helps establish the third brand aspect. - The main roster stars show up on NXT which helps NXT out. - NXT beats AEW. A good amount of people say they'll never do it again without their main roster sliding over. Remember this. - The midcarders from before (Keith Lee, Dijak, Dakota) become elevated through the Survivor Series/War Games build and while they're still in the midcard, they're building their storylines. You have the Mia Yims and Matt Riddles on the side too but along that you've got the Dains, Priests and Dunnes as well. The midcard is set in a way that you know they'll eventually elevate rather than be stagnant, there's changes. - Main roster doesn't show up on NXT anymore and NXT continues to build it's storylines up focusing on it's main people as it's midcard division continues to look great but on the side you've got new midcarders aka the return of Kushida and Cameron Grimes who just a few weeks ago, wasn't anything to talk about. You've got Xia Li who's improved and is getting more screentime. You also have Bianca Belair reestablishing herself.
- Rhea beats Shayna which makes complete sense and sets up a new era in the NXT Women's Division. Garza beat Lio last week which set up a new Cruiserweight division, Balor didn't beat Cole but Gargano returned so there's their feud continuing. Overall there's a clear path.
You can literally put together a Takeover level tv episode with all they've done. Rhea/Dakota, Keith Lee/Ciampa, Dijak/Strong for the NA Title, these would work as Takeovers or tv matches. Lets continue with Rhea, you can do Rhea/Dakota, Rhea/Io, Rhea/Candace, Rhea/Tegan, Rhea/Bianca, all of them can fit as a Takeover because of how well they're building these stars. That's what NXT has done. It's done a great job at building it's brand and individual stars up in such a way that not only is there a constant stream of elevation with the talent but everything's mixed together in a way that all it takes is one change and you've got a hyped match. Next year around this time you'll see Keith Lee, Io, Dijak and Dakota getting more shine while the midcard will have risen up to the top. We're going to see Keith lee's era, Dijak's era, Balor's next era, Undisputed Era's breakup, there's so much right here that you can see they're building towards. There's a basic structure in place. No hotshotting needed and mind you, they haven't hit the road yet, they haven't even finished fleshing out their roster to peak levels, they haven't really gone to the well. In movie terms NXT is basically like the Avengers right now by having a lot of smaller movies all coming together in one grand arc and each movie works off the others in small ways. It flows very well, it's streamlined and that's basically been their MO for a while now. AEW, sure they're building some stars up but they're missing a lot of easy stuff. Like I said earlier in the thread, Cody made that Elite/Inner Circle comment some weeks ago but rather than capitalizing on it when it was needed or continuously building towards it they left it aside. That's just easy money and sure, they can build those stars up again but that would have worked well off that Jericho feud. You've got them doing experiments like the Librarians and Dark Order and Britt Baker to see if it works or not and I give them props for being courageous to do that but shit, NXT doesn't really do that.
Like the whole Moxley thing with AEW, they know he's that dude and yet he's out doing his standard stuff when the truth is they need to build him vs Jericho in a way that makes sense rather than teasing it and then leaving it alone and then when it happens down the line it's not to the level it needs to be. That feud needs to have a Taker/Kane WM14 level build to where you're itching to see them fight. It's weird. They're using different building styles. NXTs is more streamlined while AEW's is less so.
The problem I have with them not pushing the Elite is if the did, people would be complaining about them not putting over the new talent and turning AEW into NWO Nitro or Jim Crockett Promotions.
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 21, 2019 8:45:20 GMT -5
In what way? By putting out consistent, compelling TV? It’s not like they’re anywhere near running out of fresh matchups. They have plenty of talented folks that don’t even make TV or barely get a push. But will those not on TV draw? Also, how long before the WWE can't deliver on the Takeover-like shows that the audience expects because they will get bored with the current roster or the roster gets called up after WrestleMania (or another time of the year) during a hot feud? NXT has been running strong with hot crowds and changing rosters for over 5 years now so there’s no basis in thinking that the audience will get bored or that they will run out of talent. You can easily just say the same thing about AEW or any company. Just look at all the other replies to see how many over stars they have that aren’t even in main storylines right now- including surefire main eventers like Riddle, Dream, Kushida, Swerve. They have years’ worth of storylines, not to mention they are still the most likely destination for any big signings the company makes (I think Kross is likely coming soon). As to call ups, it’s already been reported that they won’t be calling NXT stars up mid-storyline anymore now that they’re on USA.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Dec 21, 2019 10:07:31 GMT -5
Granted, I've not been watching, but going purely on numbers, the fact they've almost halved their weekly TV audience in less than three months can not be a good thing. Edit: checking numbers, they've lost more than half of their initial viewing numbers. Do you mean AEW or NXT? AEW
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Post by Fake Jesus on Dec 21, 2019 12:03:23 GMT -5
We had weeks of people on here talking about AEW being unstoppable and NXT getting embarrassed. Now many of those same people are doing the opposite.
The point is this: most takes you see anywhere on anything are purely reactionary and driven by the latest thing to happen. Both shows are in a good position. In all likelihood they'll trade wins for the entire length of the time they're competing. Ratings almost matter less than audience engagement anyway.
At the end of the day, when we're working with ratings this small, a localised power cut could change the narrative. It is what it is.
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Post by brown bricks on Dec 21, 2019 12:51:56 GMT -5
I expected this. I like AEW, but they need to dump the silly shit. It's not drawing and it's not going to draw. They claimed that they were going to have a "real sport" feel. f***ing do that and dump this, "OMG SHEZ AN ALIEN LOL BOOP" and Dark Order shit. The reaction to that angle alone last night should be enough for them to pump the brakes on it. Do I think they will? No, and it's going to continue to hurt them. What's really scary is that they won't have a new show for a couple of weeks. I wouldn't be shocked if that rating is even worse. I kinda agree with Meltzer on this week being a 'tipping point'. Like he said, I don't expect AEW to go out of business any time soon, but I think that NXT is going to beat them for quite a while. They never said they were going to have a "real sport feel'. They said sports-like matchmaking, and that has so far proven entirely the direction they took with the win/loss records. Still not sure why anyone expected the people behind Being the Elite to put out a hard, serious product. "They" didn't, no, but Tony Khan absolutely hinted at that. A quote: "Khan, who grew up watching every promotion imaginable, cites Memphis Wrestling and Mid South Wrestling as particularly influential on his vision. To that end, he says that fans can expect a product with a serious bend. “Great promotion, taking the stars seriously, the fans seriously, and treating the product as a legitimate sports property, and treating wins and losses as everything,” Khan says of his vision." People can't be surprised that A LOT of people interpreted that to mean that silly shit like Dark Order, Alien Girl, Voodoo Brandi, Dinosaur Jr., Orange Cassidy, etc. wouldn't be put on television. I get that those characters are over with people, but again, you're not going to win casual viewers or lapsed fans with that nonsense. I heard this on a podcast and it's 100% true: Tony Khan needs to tell The Young Buck and Omega to f*** off, shut down their ideas, and give Cody the book. Again, I don't think this show was the death knell for AEW. That's stupid and it's hyperbole. However, it was a goofy angle that left a bad taste in a lot of their fans' mouths. Tony Khan needs to grow some balls and take control of his shit before it gets way out of hand.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 21, 2019 13:15:34 GMT -5
People can't be surprised that A LOT of people interpreted that to mean that silly shit like Dark Order, Alien Girl, Voodoo Brandi, Dinosaur Jr., Orange Cassidy, etc. wouldn't be put on television. I get that those characters are over with people, but again, you're not going to win casual viewers or lapsed fans with that nonsense. Who says these can't draw in new or casual viewers, though? One of my friends is looking to buy a ticket, and she got in via Dark Order. Orange Cassidy gets a great reaction from literally every non-fan I have shown clips to. Someone with no wrestling knowledge or experience at all said she might give it a try after I told her about Kris Statlander. Another asked me how he could get started after hearing about all of the above. Like, I have a weird social circle, but marketing to weird people isn't a bad choice in this day and age. And if you want an alternative to WWE - WWE wouldn't touch a single one of those acts. SRS COMPETITORS, though, they have in abundance. Moreover, whatever the gimmick, every single one of them is played straight as a competitor. Statlander isn't being relegated to comedy segments; Orange aptly and smoothly demonstrates that he is not to be trifled with; the Dark Order have the wins to back up their rhetoric. They are funny, but they are not fools - compare that to any WWE gimmick that is even a little funny (hi Dean Ambrose). And also - these kinds of gimmicks have brought success at the indy level in a decade where indies grew. Maybe, just maybe, it's worth seeing what happens when they get put on TV.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 21, 2019 13:32:19 GMT -5
Tony Khan loves Orange Cassidy so he's not going anywhere. AEW isn't for the Jim Cornettes of the world either.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 13:53:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think casual viewers really cares about the serious side of wrestling. / I started watching when I was like 12. I have never had one single friend who followed or understood wrestling as I do. / I've played the games with my big brother in past, he kind of understands it, because I've told him about wraslin' business in detail and he actually took me to my first and only live event. When I happen to talk about it with someone, I usually pick the most ridiculous stuff: then people actually are interested. Once two of my friends started to mimic cocained up promos from 80-90s and LOL'd at costumes and the manly attitudes of Hogan, Warrior, etc. / Chuck Taylor's grenades were a hit too in last decade. / I haven't met a single person who cared about the "sporty" side of it. Might be 'cause WWE hasn't been shown in any finnish channels in years.
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Post by lildude8218 on Dec 21, 2019 14:41:33 GMT -5
I shouldn't have to watch their Youtube show to understand storylines or characters on their TV show.
"Michael Nakazawa is Kenny Omega's best friend."
Is he? I don't even remember them interacting at all on TV but I could be wrong.
Less "stuff" needs to happen during their picture in picture segments. Wrestling, brawling, sure. That's fine. But I've seen guys walking down the hall who stop and interact with other characters. What just happened? How would I know since I can't hear it at all?
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Post by . on Dec 21, 2019 14:42:52 GMT -5
1:Adding a few more folks to the roster would help. It would allow you to have fresh match ups.
2:Try harder for some known names, EG: Luke Harper/Brodie lee and Kross are free. Do what you can to get em.
3: I don't mind the goofy stuff, Just recognize what works and what isn't.
As for why the Dark order isn't working it's simple. It's not special. You already have this dominant heel faction in the Inner Circle that has shown it can handle most of what AEW can throw at it. Adding another large group doesn't have the same impact because kayfabe wise it's the same set of babyfaces being attacked, This goes for BBB too. Rather than have BBB go after say SCU and doing an easy[and admittedly punny] 'Were Butcher and Blade, We will cut through the entire Tag team roster leaving a trail of body parts behind on our way to winning the titles' promo they attacked Cody who was also attacked by the Inner Circle and MJF.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 21, 2019 14:54:59 GMT -5
As for why the Dark order isn't working it's simple. It's not special. You already have this dominant heel faction in the Inner Circle that has shown it can handle most of what AEW can throw at it. Adding another large group doesn't have the same impact because kayfabe wise it's the same set of babyfaces being attacked, This goes for BBB too. Rather than have BBB go after say SCU and doing an easy[and admittedly punny] 'Were Butcher and Blade, We will cut through the entire Tag team roster leaving a trail of body parts behind on our way to winning the titles' promo they attacked Cody who was also attacked by the Inner Circle and MJF. This is a good point. BBB butted up against the need to keep Cody somewhat protected, and Dark Order diverted attention from angles that are still in progress. I think the issue with this latest Dark Order segment specifically is that they went a bit 0 to 60. They were struggling to get over; just as they sort of clicked, they went to vignettes that built a good buzz; then, they crashed a main event and anointed jobbers as their enforcers. They would probably have been better off having a midcard win or two, then the anointing, then the jobbers getting their first wins - then crash a main event. And also - that main event could have used a feel good fallout instead of an interruption.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 15:08:14 GMT -5
The problem I have with them not pushing the Elite is if the did, people would be complaining about them not putting over the new talent and turning AEW into NWO Nitro or Jim Crockett Promotions. I see what you're saying. I just look at it like this.
There's a way to do it. I think the best example is someone like Orton when he wasn't pushed as The Dude (The Guy but secondary). He was pushed strong but there hit a point where guys such as Rollins, Ambrose, Styles and Kofi were able to beat him and when that happened it not only made sense but it also made said guy look better and Orton wasn't hurt by it. Orton wasn't booked as a monster, just a really strong talent who if you get one over on him you're pretty great. That was basically Dean Ambrose's entire WWE run once the Shield broke up. He was always strong but he was that benchmark. I thought they'd do that with The Elite but I was wrong. From a casual standpoint, I can only imagine how some of them feel when they watch it for the first time. We always see the comments about Omega being the Best Bout Machine and the Young Bucks being the best in the world but it's hard for them to really feel that if you haven't been following along prior to AEW. That goes back into the booking style I just mentioned because a viewer who's been watching a program for lets say 6 months, they can determine if someone's built up strong and they can see that a win over them means a lot. In this case we don't see it given AEW hasn't really been around long enough to establish them at that level yet.
It's just really hard for those who haven't followed their stories to see how great they are given they haven't really built up that long standing background to new AEW viewers. If they were kept strong for say 6 months and then they'd be beaten then the ones they put over just look better.
I wanted the Young Bucks to put over guys but I didn't think it would really be similar to what we're seeing now. I think they need to be a bit more selfish and put themselves over even if some people might dislike it because it's all about making stars and storytelling. There's more potential in that than what we're seeing now with them. The Elite were/are stars and if you want to make other stars, you have to do it right.
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