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Post by Cyno on Dec 21, 2019 15:16:24 GMT -5
As far as booking goes, AEW feels a bit disjointed. Tnere's some really frantic 0-60 booking for some stuff that jumps all over the place. Meanwhile, you have storylines with almost Gedo-esque long-term builds, like everything going on with Kenny Omega.
As for BBB, it's been mentioned a few times that MJF brought them in to mess with Cody. I'd like to see more cohesion between BBB, MJF, and Wardlow on-screen.
I also think there could be more face stables. I'm used to New Japan where there's like 4 major stables (Chaos, LIJ, Suzuki-gun, Bullet Club, along with the smaller Taguchi Japan still around) that it feels like most of the roster belongs to with all of them having varying alignments and goals. But right now there's a bunch of bigger heel stables (MJF's minions, Inner Circle, and now the Dark Order) that are all ganging up on the Elite. Anything else that could be considered a face stable (Jurassic Express, SCU) are smaller trios. Also doesn't help that the Elite come out individually to help their ambushed brothers instead of as a group to even it up immediately.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 21, 2019 15:27:22 GMT -5
I shouldn't have to watch their Youtube show to understand storylines or characters on their TV show. "Michael Nakazawa is Kenny Omega's best friend." Is he? I don't even remember them interacting at all on TV but I could be wrong. Less "stuff" needs to happen during their picture in picture segments. Wrestling, brawling, sure. That's fine. But I've seen guys walking down the hall who stop and interact with other characters. What just happened? How would I know since I can't hear it at all? The whole reason that Nakazawa faced moxley(and that was on commentary)was for omega.And before that I think Nakazawa helped Omega ONCE in a beatdown. But yeh I keep saying they need some of the non-kayfabe breaking BTE segments on the main show,because they do wonders
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Dec 21, 2019 15:48:55 GMT -5
My biggest takeaway is that they need to do more work to make their tag division a ratings draw. They put on consistently great matches and have compelling characters but it is not connecting the same way the top singles stars are. I think they can get there, but I think they need to have a compelling rivalry or angle driving that in 2020. Perhaps the Dark Order could figure into that. That gets to another point I've been seeing. Some people definitely did not like the Dark Order angle which is fine, I get it even as someone who enjoyed it. But I've seen takes saying of course AEW lost with that angle. No one knew they were doing that until literally the last four minutes. Maybe it ultimately turns off the viewers they had at that point but I have my doubts. It wasn't a hot angle by any means with the live crowd but I still want to see where it goes. I think the big factor for the tag team division is giving it something story wise that people can get into. When the tournament was running the tag division proved it could be a ratings draw, because people were interested and invested in the tournament and seeing how it panned out. Like you said, The Dark Order could be the answer to that issue. If they become a looming figure and "Big Bad" for the tag division to deal with, it could lead to some compelling television. Alternatively as stables slowly begin to form and take shape in AEW (Inner Circle, Dark Order, Best Friends w/ Orange Cassidy, SCU), they could end up using a similar format to how NJPW treats its battles between factions to be a shot in the arm.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 21, 2019 17:32:42 GMT -5
I shouldn't have to watch their Youtube show to understand storylines or characters on their TV show. "Michael Nakazawa is Kenny Omega's best friend." Is he? I don't even remember them interacting at all on TV but I could be wrong. Less "stuff" needs to happen during their picture in picture segments. Wrestling, brawling, sure. That's fine. But I've seen guys walking down the hall who stop and interact with other characters. What just happened? How would I know since I can't hear it at all? The whole reason that Nakazawa faced moxley(and that was on commentary)was for omega.And before that I think Nakazawa helped Omega ONCE in a beatdown. But yeh I keep saying they need some of the non-kayfabe breaking BTE segments on the main show,because they do wonders To be fair, they haven't really acted like Nakazawa is Kenny's best friend on BTE either. The most memorable segment on BTE I remember with the both of them in it is having to room together in Mexico and Nakazawa is doing his "NAKA! NAKA! NAKA!" thing in the room when Kenny gets there. And Kenny's like "seriously? this f***ing guy?"
That whole thing's been a Dynamite deal as far as I know, with commentary and Nak's and Omega's promos bringing it up with Pac and Moxley.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Dec 22, 2019 10:09:51 GMT -5
I also want to say this, just to show how divorced some of the IWC narratives you see are from facts - It's likely that with DVR AEW is still getting close to or over a million viewers. And it's almost guaranteed that with DVR and the WWE network factored in, NXT has never actually "lost" except in live numbers. Both USA and Turner enjoy live viewers, they almost definitely prefer live viewers, but at the end of the day if your show has a loyal, cult-like fanbase - which wrestling generally does - and it's still doing over a million altogether in an era where trends and analytics are increasingly important and even most genuinely culturally relevant shows struggle to pop over two million for eight weeks of high budget prestige TV, USA and Turner are still going to be pretty happy that they can reliably get about 700,000 viewers for two hours live every week.
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Dec 22, 2019 13:01:38 GMT -5
I also want to say this, just to show how divorced some of the IWC narratives you see are from facts - It's likely that with DVR AEW is still getting close to or over a million viewers. And it's almost guaranteed that with DVR and the WWE network factored in, NXT has never actually "lost" except in live numbers. Both USA and Turner enjoy live viewers, they almost definitely prefer live viewers, but at the end of the day if your show has a loyal, cult-like fanbase - which wrestling generally does - and it's still doing over a million altogether in an era where trends and analytics are increasingly important and even most genuinely culturally relevant shows struggle to pop over two million for eight weeks of high budget prestige TV, USA and Turner are still going to be pretty happy that they can reliably get about 700,000 viewers for two hours live every week. Plus, live TV numbers don't account for WWE Network/Fite TV live viewers.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 22, 2019 13:04:18 GMT -5
I also want to say this, just to show how divorced some of the IWC narratives you see are from facts - It's likely that with DVR AEW is still getting close to or over a million viewers. And it's almost guaranteed that with DVR and the WWE network factored in, NXT has never actually "lost" except in live numbers. Both USA and Turner enjoy live viewers, they almost definitely prefer live viewers, but at the end of the day if your show has a loyal, cult-like fanbase - which wrestling generally does - and it's still doing over a million altogether in an era where trends and analytics are increasingly important and even most genuinely culturally relevant shows struggle to pop over two million for eight weeks of high budget prestige TV, USA and Turner are still going to be pretty happy that they can reliably get about 700,000 viewers for two hours live every week. Opposite, it has been reported AEW has more DVR numbers.Plus tnt also has the replays on the website the next day.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 22, 2019 20:06:30 GMT -5
I think the more obnoxious thing in all the ratings talk is how we'll have a week where Dynamite does strong live numbers and everything's fine, but each week they have a dip we get a bunch of talk (less so here than on other sites) about "everything that's wrong with AEW", as if the shows that have drawn lower numbers have been of any strong particular difference from the shows that have done better, or visa versa.
I mean, you'd think after this week that Dynamite had a viewership drop because Kris Statlander's outfit isn't weird enough for her gimmick, going by some of the online discourse, or that Dark Order showing up with four minutes left on the show hurt ratings despite Dark Order getting a lot of positive buzz lately. But if the live ratings go back up into 800,000 territory on New Years, suddenly that stuff won't get talked about, will it?
Guess it ties into the weird myopia of a lot of online-centric wrestling fans; not all obviously, but you know how it gets sometimes.
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 22, 2019 20:49:44 GMT -5
I think the more obnoxious thing in all the ratings talk is how we'll have a week where Dynamite does strong live numbers and everything's fine, but each week they have a dip we get a bunch of talk (less so here than on other sites) about "everything that's wrong with AEW", as if the shows that have drawn lower numbers have been of any strong particular different from the shows that have done better, or visa versa. I mean, you'd think after this week that Dynamite had a viewership drop because Kris Statlander's outfit isn't weird enough for her gimmick, going by some of the online discourse, or that Dark Order showing up with four minutes left on the show hurt ratings despite Dark Order getting a lot of positive buzz lately. But if the live ratings go back up into 800,000 territory on New Years, suddenly that stuff won't get talked about, will it? Guess it ties into the weird myopia of a lot of online-centric wrestling fans; not all obviously, but you know how it gets sometimes. Especially since, it's not like ratings are entirely irrelevant. It is part of getting new viewers in, and obviously, it matters for their relationship with TNT, but PPV sales, ticket sales, and merch are considerably more relevant for the financial health of the company in its future. That said, obviously, they will want to work on it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 22, 2019 21:06:35 GMT -5
I think the more obnoxious thing in all the ratings talk is how we'll have a week where Dynamite does strong live numbers and everything's fine, but each week they have a dip we get a bunch of talk (less so here than on other sites) about "everything that's wrong with AEW", as if the shows that have drawn lower numbers have been of any strong particular different from the shows that have done better, or visa versa. I mean, you'd think after this week that Dynamite had a viewership drop because Kris Statlander's outfit isn't weird enough for her gimmick, going by some of the online discourse, or that Dark Order showing up with four minutes left on the show hurt ratings despite Dark Order getting a lot of positive buzz lately. But if the live ratings go back up into 800,000 territory on New Years, suddenly that stuff won't get talked about, will it? Guess it ties into the weird myopia of a lot of online-centric wrestling fans; not all obviously, but you know how it gets sometimes. Especially since, it's not like ratings are entirely irrelevant. It is part of getting new viewers in, and obviously, it matters for their relationship with TNT, but PPV sales, ticket sales, and merch are considerably more relevant for the financial health of the company in its future. That said, obviously, they will want to work on it. Right, they're selling 5,000-6,000 tickets on Wednesday nights, they've sold out each of their PPVs so far, and I'm sure they're doing great on merch. The ratings are big for them to get a nice, more lucrative TV contract a few years from now, but if they're drawing something like 700,000-900,000 live viewers with regularity they'll get something solid and be all the better off.
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Post by robferatu on Dec 22, 2019 23:43:58 GMT -5
I think it’s a combination of the “silly” gimmicks like the Dark Order and whatever Brandi is doing, and also the fact that they did not at all present and establish the Bucks and Omega as superstars as they should have. The Bucks and Omega have been presented as run-of-the-mill wrestlers when they should have gotten substantial pushes out of the gate to establish them to the “causal” audience that is not as familiar (or familiar at all) with their work. Because of that, we are 3 months in and their only real “stars” on the show are still just Jericho, Moxley and Cody. I think Meltzer hit on not establishing Kenny Omega as a big star recently, which seems like a severe miscalculation by AEW as the only talent that has been established as such are Jon Moxley, Chris Jericho and Cody... All of which are "former" WWE guys, or guys that common fans associate with WWE more than anything. It feels paramount for All-Elite to establish Kenny Omega, Hangman Page and the Young Bucks as their homegrown star talent. However, both the Bucks and Kenny Omega have been far too generous and been putting over newer talent, younger talent while sacrificing their star quality. To be honest, my interest in AEW is already faltering, but I want to see them succeed and continue to grow.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 23, 2019 0:19:12 GMT -5
I think it’s a combination of the “silly” gimmicks like the Dark Order and whatever Brandi is doing, and also the fact that they did not at all present and establish the Bucks and Omega as superstars as they should have. The Bucks and Omega have been presented as run-of-the-mill wrestlers when they should have gotten substantial pushes out of the gate to establish them to the “causal” audience that is not as familiar (or familiar at all) with their work. Because of that, we are 3 months in and their only real “stars” on the show are still just Jericho, Moxley and Cody. I think Meltzer hit on not establishing Kenny Omega as a big star recently, which seems like a severe miscalculation by AEW as the only talent that has been established as such are Jon Moxley, Chris Jericho and Cody... All of which are "former" WWE guys, or guys that common fans associate with WWE more than anything. It feels paramount for All-Elite to establish Kenny Omega, Hangman Page and the Young Bucks as their homegrown star talent. However, both the Bucks and Kenny Omega have been far too generous and been putting over newer talent, younger talent while sacrificing their star quality. To be honest, my interest in AEW is already faltering, but I want to see them succeed and continue to grow. I have since the start,while yeh Jericho is the know name , Kenny Omega symbolizes the alternative,he should have been the face built upon
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 23, 2019 9:22:50 GMT -5
I think the more obnoxious thing in all the ratings talk is how we'll have a week where Dynamite does strong live numbers and everything's fine, but each week they have a dip we get a bunch of talk (less so here than on other sites) about "everything that's wrong with AEW", as if the shows that have drawn lower numbers have been of any strong particular difference from the shows that have done better, or visa versa. I mean, you'd think after this week that Dynamite had a viewership drop because Kris Statlander's outfit isn't weird enough for her gimmick, going by some of the online discourse, or that Dark Order showing up with four minutes left on the show hurt ratings despite Dark Order getting a lot of positive buzz lately. But if the live ratings go back up into 800,000 territory on New Years, suddenly that stuff won't get talked about, will it? Guess it ties into the weird myopia of a lot of online-centric wrestling fans; not all obviously, but you know how it gets sometimes. People always talk more about the negative. Critiquing leads to more nuanced discussion than praise. Same can be said for WWE ratings threads.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 23, 2019 17:21:46 GMT -5
I think the more obnoxious thing in all the ratings talk is how we'll have a week where Dynamite does strong live numbers and everything's fine, but each week they have a dip we get a bunch of talk (less so here than on other sites) about "everything that's wrong with AEW", as if the shows that have drawn lower numbers have been of any strong particular difference from the shows that have done better, or visa versa. I mean, you'd think after this week that Dynamite had a viewership drop because Kris Statlander's outfit isn't weird enough for her gimmick, going by some of the online discourse, or that Dark Order showing up with four minutes left on the show hurt ratings despite Dark Order getting a lot of positive buzz lately. But if the live ratings go back up into 800,000 territory on New Years, suddenly that stuff won't get talked about, will it? Guess it ties into the weird myopia of a lot of online-centric wrestling fans; not all obviously, but you know how it gets sometimes. People always talk more about the negative. Critiquing leads to more nuanced discussion than praise. Same can be said for WWE ratings threads. Only to a point: WWE at least has a history of consistently falling ratings (speaking only of Raw and SD here, obviously) while AEW has only been around for three months on weekly TV, plus there's a world of difference between how most shows have been received by the audience. Obviously negative talk will draw more engagement; as you said, it opens the door to more in-depth, critical discussion than just posts saying "man, that was fun!", so that's not the weird part. It's that the negative talk only seems to come when there's an odd week that Dynamite's ratings take a dip, at which point the "it might not be here in a few years!" types show up, while the bulk of the weeks where its trend lines are just fine don't find that kind of talk, even though the show is materially pretty much the same in both the up and down weeks. Criticism is always fine, and nobody has to enjoy every single thing that any single promotion puts on, but there's a big gap between that and arguing "Here's all the things I don't like, and I'm only really talking about them when I see a bad ratings week AND they're the exact reasons why this promotion won't last!", etc. etc. etc.
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 23, 2019 21:34:53 GMT -5
People always talk more about the negative. Critiquing leads to more nuanced discussion than praise. Same can be said for WWE ratings threads. Only to a point: WWE at least has a history of consistently falling ratings (speaking only of Raw and SD here, obviously) while AEW has only been around for three months on weekly TV, plus there's a world of difference between how most shows have been received by the audience. Obviously negative talk will draw more engagement; as you said, it opens the door to more in-depth, critical discussion than just posts saying "man, that was fun!", so that's not the weird part. It's that the negative talk only seems to come when there's an odd week that Dynamite's ratings take a dip, at which point the "it might not be here in a few years!" types show up, while the bulk of the weeks where its trend lines are just fine don't find that kind of talk, even though the show is materially pretty much the same in both the up and down weeks. Criticism is always fine, and nobody has to enjoy every single thing that any single promotion puts on, but there's a big gap between that and arguing "Here's all the things I don't like, and I'm only really talking about them when I see a bad ratings week AND they're the exact reasons why this promotion won't last!", etc. etc. etc. I think that’s when those discussions start creeping into the ratings threads because it’s topical, but even when ratings were strong I think there were threads in here talking about what people didn’t like about AEW so far.
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