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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 3:20:41 GMT -5
Ok for those who don't know, Bret on his first DVD and in his book complained that when he got the belt back from Nash at the 1995 Survivor Series that it was never serious, he was just holding the belt until Shawn won it at Wrestlemania. He felt he was booked weak in his matches with both Taker at the Rumble and Nash in there Cage match. That he never allowed to have his time as champion.
Is that fair or Bret being to self involved. I mean theres been loads of holding Champions before Bret like Slaughter at Rumble 91 and even Macho at WM 4 (Hogan was taking time off). Hell Shawn himself would be a holding Champ for Austin at 14. I'm a huge Bret Hart fan and yeah im sure he hated the Klique but this seems unfair. What do others think?
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Post by flakeymcgill on Dec 29, 2019 7:05:57 GMT -5
I don't think Vince was only ever behind Bret reluctantly any time he won the title if truth be known. In 1993 he quickly transitioned away from Bret and moved him down the card, in 1994 he was only in the spot because Luger didn't work out as expected and they left themselves little time to go anywhere else, in 1995 he was just a transition to Michaels.
Unlike Hogan, Warrior, Diesel and Michaels I don't think Vince ever gave Bret the strap enthusiastically, instead when he felt he had little other option or when plan A's didn't work. Of all the babyface champions of that era I honestly don't think Vince ever really believed Bret was the right guy despite how many title runs he had. Competent, reliable, but you always got the feeling Vince was looking for something more in a way he wasn't with some of his other champions.
Years later when he returned that things Vince said, albeit in character, rang true where he criticised Bret's lack of mic skills and charisma. I think that was drawn from what Vince really felt about Bret back in the day, hence why he was always looking to transition away from him when he was on top.
With others Vince felt 'this is my guy', with Bret it was often 'Well, I didn't think we'd end up here but let's try and make the most of it'.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 29, 2019 7:18:58 GMT -5
I don't think Vince was only ever behind Bret reluctantly any time he won the title if truth be known. In 1993 he quickly transitioned away from Bret and moved him down the card, in 1994 he was only in the spot because Luger didn't work out as expected and they left themselves little time to go anywhere else, in 1995 he was just a transition to Michaels. Unlike Hogan, Warrior, Diesel and Michaels I don't think Vince ever gave Bret the strap enthusiastically, instead when he felt he had little other option or when plan A's didn't work. Of all the babyface champions of that era I honestly don't think Vince ever really believed Bret was the right guy despite how many title runs he had. Competent, reliable, but you always got the feeling Vince was looking for something more in a way he wasn't with some of his other champions. Years later when he returned that things Vince said, albeit in character, rang true where he criticised Bret's lack of mic skills and charisma. I think that was drawn from what Vince really felt about Bret back in the day, hence why he was always looking to transition away from him when he was on top. With others Vince felt 'this is my guy', with Bret it was often 'Well, I didn't think we'd end up here but let's try and make the most of it'. Agreed. For Vince Bret was a solid hand but not his kind of champion. Bret was Bob Backlund or Pedro Morales, not Bruno Sammartino or Hulk Hogan. Bret was a reset champion while Vince set up his next big thing. |
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Dec 29, 2019 8:30:18 GMT -5
Bret is, and probably always will be, one of my favorite wrestlers, but the way they built Shawn to go over Bret, it was very apparent who Vince favored. To be fair, Shawn had what Bret didn't, natural charisma and a larger than life personality.
After almost a decade of using Hogan over and over, it's no wonder why Vince would want guys like Shawn and Diesel over guys like Bret and Luger. I'm also curious to know how much Shawn was in Vince's ear at the time too.
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 8:31:55 GMT -5
I don't think Vince was only ever behind Bret reluctantly any time he won the title if truth be known. In 1993 he quickly transitioned away from Bret and moved him down the card, in 1994 he was only in the spot because Luger didn't work out as expected and they left themselves little time to go anywhere else, in 1995 he was just a transition to Michaels. Unlike Hogan, Warrior, Diesel and Michaels I don't think Vince ever gave Bret the strap enthusiastically, instead when he felt he had little other option or when plan A's didn't work. Of all the babyface champions of that era I honestly don't think Vince ever really believed Bret was the right guy despite how many title runs he had. Competent, reliable, but you always got the feeling Vince was looking for something more in a way he wasn't with some of his other champions. Years later when he returned that things Vince said, albeit in character, rang true where he criticised Bret's lack of mic skills and charisma. I think that was drawn from what Vince really felt about Bret back in the day, hence why he was always looking to transition away from him when he was on top. With others Vince felt 'this is my guy', with Bret it was often 'Well, I didn't think we'd end up here but let's try and make the most of it'. I think you're right. Even when he was Champion in 94 he was never in the Main Event. King of the Ring was Piper/Lawler and Summerslam and Survivor were Taker/Faker and Taker/Yoko. It's ironic he had the same amount of Title runs as Hogan but never the same amount of support from Vince. |
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 8:34:13 GMT -5
Bret is, and probably always will be, one of my favorite wrestlers, but the way they built Shawn to go over Bret, it was very apparent who Vince favored. To be fair, Shawn had what Bret didn't, natural charisma and a larger than life personality. After almost a decade of using Hogan over and over, it's no wonder why Vince would want guys like Shawn and Diesel over guys like Bret and Luger. I'm also curious to know how much Shawn was in Vince's ear at the time too. One of the big mysterys of the time bloften said by people who actually worked in the WWF was how the hell did Shawn not get fired for all the crap he did at the time ? |
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Dec 29, 2019 8:38:57 GMT -5
Bret is, and probably always will be, one of my favorite wrestlers, but the way they built Shawn to go over Bret, it was very apparent who Vince favored. To be fair, Shawn had what Bret didn't, natural charisma and a larger than life personality. After almost a decade of using Hogan over and over, it's no wonder why Vince would want guys like Shawn and Diesel over guys like Bret and Luger. I'm also curious to know how much Shawn was in Vince's ear at the time too. One of the big mysterys of the time bloften said by people who actually worked in the WWF was how the hell did Shawn not get fired for all the crap he did at the time ? Drugs and trouble weren't uncommon issues for Vince up to this point. Hell, he had plenty of those same issues to deal with himself at the time. However, if he saw dollar signs on someone, especially after Hogan left, then I'm sure he turned a blind eye to a lot. |
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Post by Milkman Norm on Dec 29, 2019 10:12:52 GMT -5
Yes but they had booked themselves into a corner where they didn't have any top heels to put Shawn over. Diesel was putting Undertaker over and after that?... The roster was thin in the spring of 96. A Babyface vs Babyface match is always risky because about half the fans are gonna be upset in the end. But at that time I think it was the best that could be done.
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 10:53:09 GMT -5
Yes but they had booked themselves into a corner where they didn't have any top heels to put Shawn over. Diesel was putting Undertaker over and after that?... The roster was thin in the spring of 96. A Babyface vs Babyface match is always risky because about half the fans are gonna be upset in the end. But at that time I think it was the best that could be done. Shawn winning the belt off Bret was the right call. They were the two best wrestlers in the company at that time. It gave Shawn legitimacy as a real wrestler than just a high flying pretty boy. Bret forgets he was taking time off anyway. He would be gone until Survivor Series. There were some heels coming through like Vader (who Shawn buried) and Mankind. After there In Your House match, I kind of wish Mankind had got Sid's Survivor Series/Rumble spot for the belt feud with Shawn. They had amazing chemistry in the ring and it seemed like Vince wasted a golden feud there. Also was Sid a heel before Survivor Series I can't remember ? |
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Dec 29, 2019 11:06:22 GMT -5
Yes but they had booked themselves into a corner where they didn't have any top heels to put Shawn over. Diesel was putting Undertaker over and after that?... The roster was thin in the spring of 96. A Babyface vs Babyface match is always risky because about half the fans are gonna be upset in the end. But at that time I think it was the best that could be done. It makes you wonder what the dynamic of the "New Generation" era would've been like if Bret had put Owen over in '94, or Bulldog in '95? It was difficult to buy them as credible heel contenders against Shawn and Diesel. Sid had feuds with both which is interesting, especially with Sid going over on Shawn. It should've been Vader. Does anyone know the reason for the Sid reign in '96? Warrior should've turned heel on his return, and put Shawn over. |
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 11:16:56 GMT -5
Yes but they had booked themselves into a corner where they didn't have any top heels to put Shawn over. Diesel was putting Undertaker over and after that?... The roster was thin in the spring of 96. A Babyface vs Babyface match is always risky because about half the fans are gonna be upset in the end. But at that time I think it was the best that could be done. It makes you wonder what the dynamic of the "New Generation" era would've been like if Bret had put Owen over in '94, or Bulldog in '95? It was difficult to buy them as credible heel contenders against Shawn and Diesel. Sid had feuds with both which is interesting, especially with Sid going over on Shawn. It should've been Vader. Does anyone know the reason for the Sid reign in '96? Warrior should've turned heel on his return, and put Shawn over. In a nutshell, Vader was originally ment to get Sid's spot of winning the belt at Survivor Series 96 then dropping it back to Shawn at Rumble 97 but Shawn killed it and they gave it to Sid instead. Shawn was pissed with Vader potatoing him in there matches. He used to bully him backstage threatening to have his fat ass fired. In there Summerslam match he even breaks character kicking him and screaming move fu@%ing move. That pretty much killed Vaders push in the WWF |
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Post by Milkman Norm on Dec 29, 2019 11:40:45 GMT -5
Warror wasn
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Post by Milkman Norm on Dec 29, 2019 11:42:40 GMT -5
Part of Warrior coming back was the deal to promote his comic book and "university". If Vince had tried to turn him heel methinks he would have just gone home had Vince tried to turn him heel.
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 12:54:18 GMT -5
Part of Warrior coming back was the deal to promote his comic book and "university". If Vince had tried to turn him heel methinks he would have just gone home had Vince tried to turn him heel. Warrior was a big as prick as Shawn but without the in ring talent to compensate. I did read they wanted him to turn heel at Summerslam 92 but he killed it back then |
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Post by Wardlow on Wardlow 54 on Dec 29, 2019 13:14:44 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Bret claimed his issue wasn't losing it to Shawn, but it was the booking of his reign, particularly the Champion being used as an extra in someone else's feud. I can't say I blame him for being upset. He looked weak in every title defense, only getting fluke wins, if he wasn't dqed. Even against Bulldog, he won with a rollup-style hold. There are holding Champions, then there are your transitional reigns. Bret got a transitional reign where the Champion was secondary to the guys he was fighting.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 29, 2019 13:35:37 GMT -5
Correct me if I am not remembering it correctly, but wasn't Bret's gripe moreso with his portrayal rather in his third reign rather than his losing to Shawn at any point?
He genuinely thought that he and Shawn had the tools to turn the tide on WCW with an epic rivalry, trading the title multiple times, with Shawn winning the rubber match.
But in order to do that, he needed to be potrayed as the ultimate hero. Instead, Shawn got the Rocky style training montage vignettes and Bret lost to Taker and couldn't beat Diesel clean, followed by vignettes of him being wrapped up by 70 year old Stu.
---
Edit Lol the post above has my exact sentiments
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Post by Muskrat on Dec 29, 2019 13:36:02 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Bret claimed his issue wasn't losing it to Shawn, but it was the booking of his reign, particularly the Champion being used as an extra in someone else's feud. I can't say I blame him for being upset. He looked weak in every title defense, only getting fluke wins, if he wasn't dqed. Even against Bulldog, he won with a rollup-style hold. There are holding Champions, then there are your transitional reigns. Bret got a transitional reign where the Champion was secondary to the guys he was fighting. Yeah, that’s my issue with that run. Nothing wrong with a transitional champ, but he was booked like shit during that run basically only looking good when he lost it to Shawn |
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 29, 2019 13:40:06 GMT -5
Correct me if I am not remembering it correctly, but wasn't Bret's gripe moreso with his portrayal rather in his third reign rather than his losing to Shawn at any point? He genuinely thought that he and Shawn had the tools to turn the tide on WCW with an epic rivalry, trading the title multiple times, with Shawn winning the rubber match. But in order to do that, he needed to be potrayed as the ultimate hero. Instead, Shawn got the Rocky style training montage vignettes and Bret lost to Taker and couldn't beat Diesel clean, followed by vignettes of him being wrapped up by 70 year old Stu. --- Edit Lol the post above has my exact sentiments Ive never seen any of that so yeah, dumb. If Bret is a loser so what if you, barely, beat him. Im reminded of Mick Foleys story of working with Sting. When he laid out his ideas Sting asked "Arent you just here to make me look good?". And Mick replied " Yeah but the better I look then you look even better when you beat me. " |
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 29, 2019 13:47:23 GMT -5
Bret is, and probably always will be, one of my favorite wrestlers, but the way they built Shawn to go over Bret, it was very apparent who Vince favored. To be fair, Shawn had what Bret didn't, natural charisma and a larger than life personality. After almost a decade of using Hogan over and over, it's no wonder why Vince would want guys like Shawn and Diesel over guys like Bret and Luger. I'm also curious to know how much Shawn was in Vince's ear at the time too. One of the big mysterys of the time bloften said by people who actually worked in the WWF was how the hell did Shawn not get fired for all the crap he did at the time ? I'm sure there were a number of reasons that people will wave off with some bearskin rug theories, but I feel like Vince drifting away from Hogan meant he was possibly wanting another "strong personality" to collaborate with, though even he ran out of patience with Shawn sometimes. Had Vince gone to prison, Shawn would have probably either needed to cool his jets or get sacked. When asked how he would have handled it, Jerry Jarrett, who would have been in charge, said that it'd have been like when JFK got shot. "We'd be real sorry and miss him, but then life would move on., something to that effect. I can buy that, given how firm he was with Lawler at points. I imagine Vince was also just reluctant to get rid of a star he thought had crossover appeal when the business was already not good. I think if Bret had been pushy, too, Vince may have also capitulated to a lot to keep him, but Bret didn't tend to test Vince like that. |
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 13:55:24 GMT -5
Correct me if I am not remembering it correctly, but wasn't Bret's gripe moreso with his portrayal rather in his third reign rather than his losing to Shawn at any point? He genuinely thought that he and Shawn had the tools to turn the tide on WCW with an epic rivalry, trading the title multiple times, with Shawn winning the rubber match. But in order to do that, he needed to be potrayed as the ultimate hero. Instead, Shawn got the Rocky style training montage vignettes and Bret lost to Taker and couldn't beat Diesel clean, followed by vignettes of him being wrapped up by 70 year old Stu. --- Edit Lol the post above has my exact sentiments I know he did a match with Taker at the 96 Rumble and he did a Cage match with Diesel on Raw. You can judge for yourself whether he looked strong or weak in this. www.dailymotion.com/video/x5sepvh |
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