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Post by The Rick Jericho on Mar 2, 2020 21:33:20 GMT -5
Without the screwjob and his legendary 1996-97 run, how does Bret's legacy look like if he never came back?
So no heel turn, no screwjob, no WCW run, no legendary Austin feud.
Is he looked upon more highly or less because he didn't have that "moment" of Montreal in his career. I guess tied into this, who knows what Austin's career looks like without Bret Hart, so factor that in, to his legacy.
3x WWF Champion 2x Intercontinental Champion 2x Tag Team Champion 1994 Royal Rumble Winner 1993 King of the Ring Winner
Where would that stack up, if he retired in 1996?
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Mar 2, 2020 21:36:54 GMT -5
Kind of like Pedro Morales I’d imagine but better remembered. In that they were both great performers who had segments of the audiences eat up everything they did. However overshadowed by some bigger names that came before then after, namely Bruno and Backlund for Pedro and Hogan and Austin/Rock for Bret (if Austin/Rock even blow up in this alternate timeline).
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Mar 2, 2020 22:11:21 GMT -5
The main takes on Bret these days seem to be a balance between "Extraordinarily talented in-ring performer who never quite had the presence to become a top megastar" and "One of the greatest of all time, didn't get the opportunity to live up to his potential because he didn't fit McMahon's ideal of what a pro wrestling star should look like". If he'd retired at WM12, I figure we'd have a lot more of the former and a lot less of the later, though that view wouldn't be nonexistent. Either way, there'd be a lot less dispute about HBK being the overall better performer.
Basically Ricky Steamboat if he'd been in the right place at the right time on a depleted roster.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 3, 2020 7:23:17 GMT -5
Workhorse that excelled in Tag and Singles competition.
Put over Davey Boy Smith and Shawn Michaels.
Paved the way for smaller more athletic wrestlers.
Couldn't draw a dime.
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 3, 2020 7:34:43 GMT -5
Brought more tears to more eyes than any wrestler ever.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Mar 3, 2020 9:49:42 GMT -5
I feel like Bret had already established himself as an all time great prior to that run. 1996-97 is like Bret’s Peyton-Manning-with-the-Broncos years - we already knew he was a first ballot Hall of Famer but that run solidified his spot as one of the best of the best.
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Post by Aceorton on Mar 3, 2020 13:14:45 GMT -5
Montreal comes up first in conversation because of the controversy and intrigue around it, but it's not what "made" Bret, at least for me. It was the whining about getting screwed, Austin feud and U.S.-Canada/Hart Foundation angle that cemented him for all-time.
Without any of that happening, he'd be remembered as a technically sound, mostly well-behaved babyface champion who serviceably got the company through some lean transition years between Hulkamania and the Attitude Era after being a longtime tag guy. (I say "mostly well-behaved" because part of Bret's charm was his willingness to sometimes do heelish things like play possum, tie Diesel's ankles together with a power cord, etc.)
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Post by David-Arquette on Mar 3, 2020 14:14:57 GMT -5
Great technical wrestler who could really tell a story, and who paved the way for a lot of guys. Looking back, he was never a first choice Champion, but very much the go to workhorse, holding Champion.
Just looking at how he won the Title the first time, on a house show, and then losing at Wrestlemania 9 the way he did. Wrestlemania 10 was a strong victory, I feel, but he seemed like he was just killing time with the belt. He won it from Diesel with the main reason being to drop it to Shawn, and then when he won the Title for the final time, he was booked in what felt like a mid card feud against the damn Patriot.
I think circumstance was against him, but also Bret just couldn't cut it on the mic in the way he perceived himself; the hero Champion. If he had more charisma and mic skills I think he would have had better runs as Champion.
I also think that even without the screw job Brett's legacy would have been tarnished due to his ego and bitterness, which would have still played a factor regardless.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 3, 2020 15:12:35 GMT -5
Even with the screwjob and WCW garbage, I still consider Bret the greatest of all time. No bad matches (not counting WCW where he had to carry broken down peers from his WWF days), always treated fans with respect, put his opponents over consistently even in defeat. Yeah man, Bret is the GOAT.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 4, 2020 15:35:43 GMT -5
Would have been great, but Bret's heel run is one of the best ever IMO, because he was a heel who I generally agreed with.
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Post by flakeymcgill on Mar 4, 2020 15:43:35 GMT -5
Dependable, reliable, unremarkable.
I think Bret Hart's best work came in the midcard, quite honestly. At main event level I think Bret struggled in the immediate afterglow of the boom period where every main eventer to that point would sweat charisma. Bret Hart didn't sweat charisma and I think the appreciation of his in-ring ability we can have now, kind of masks how obvious that was at the time to the audience and what a massive culture shock his rise to being the WWE champion and lead face for the company was.
It's not necessarily a knock against Bret as he was an impossible task but in terms of who the audience had been conditioned to think of as a main eventer and the attributes they should have - Bret was a shock. In his IC title days the fact he wasn't as good on the mic as half of the babyface roster didn't matter, when he became world champ it stuck out like a sore thumb.
Not saying Bret shouldn't have been a main eventer or suggesting anyone else who could have done better at that time but if you think only a few years earlier that Savage had gone from IC level to main event and took to it like a duck to water and seemed a natural fit at the top of the card, with Bret I'm not sure his ascendancy to be the top guy in the company ever stopped being a bit....jarring, at least to the mainstream/casual audience.
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Post by timelimitdraw on Mar 4, 2020 19:33:52 GMT -5
If he had retired from in-ring competition, he would've been the "Babe Ruth of the WWF" that Vince always wanted. Bret would've still likely had a good relationship to pop up from time to time as a goodwill ambassador, maybe even being the on-air President after Gorilla Monsoon's health started declining, and most likely gone in the 1996 HOF class (assuming he had a non-wrestler contract with the WWF).
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 4, 2020 23:39:12 GMT -5
One of the best in ring wrestlers but one who lacked a defining rival. If you think about it in a lot of ways the backstage feud with Shawn helped boost Bret's legacy as it made people think of the two as constant rivals... which really was not the case until 97.
Honest question before 97 with Shawn and Austin, who would be considered the biggest rival of the Hitman? Lawler? Owen? Backlund? Honestly I feel like others in that era have more memorable rivalries than Bret (and I say that as a fan)
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on Mar 5, 2020 1:30:30 GMT -5
One of the best in ring wrestlers but one who lacked a defining rival. If you think about it in a lot of ways the backstage feud with Shawn helped boost Bret's legacy as it made people think of the two as constant rivals... which really was not the case until 97. Honest question before 97 with Shawn and Austin, who would be considered the biggest rival of the Hitman? Lawler? Owen? Backlund? Honestly I feel like others in that era have more memorable rivalries than Bret (and I say that as a fan) Well, if you ignore Shawn, which really you can’t, you still have Owen. That feud lasted until the Hart Foundation formed as a stable. Montreal certainly put Bret v. HBK OTT, but they were side by side on career progression anyway and had Memorable matches.
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Post by flakeymcgill on Mar 5, 2020 3:39:08 GMT -5
Would have been great, but Bret's heel run is one of the best ever IMO, because he was a heel who I generally agreed with. Doesn't that make him a bad heel, though? The point of a heel is to get heat not sympathy and support.
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Post by sportatorium on Mar 5, 2020 15:06:58 GMT -5
To the original point, if WWF wasn’t in financial dire straits, he probably doesn’t have to go to WCW and none of the above scenarios matter as much. From a wrestling fan’s point of view, his involvement in the double turn with Austin and the Backlund match where he stayed in the crossface chickenwing for 8 minutes while the Owen/Helen drama unfolded say everything about what that legacy could have been.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Mar 5, 2020 19:16:32 GMT -5
Would have been great, but Bret's heel run is one of the best ever IMO, because he was a heel who I generally agreed with. Doesn't that make him a bad heel, though? The point of a heel is to get heat not sympathy and support. Their motivations can be justified, ie Foley being upset that a fan had a sign advocating the brutal beating of his 3 year old son is valid. His reaction, to inflict every single bad thing that had ever happened to him onto Tommy Dreamer because Tommy likes the fans, was where you need to separate "Hey, I kinda agree with him" from "Jesus man, calm down!"
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Post by Phosphor Glow on Mar 25, 2020 2:09:52 GMT -5
Doesn't that make him a bad heel, though? The point of a heel is to get heat not sympathy and support. Their motivations can be justified, ie Foley being upset that a fan had a sign advocating the brutal beating of his 3 year old son is valid. His reaction, to inflict every single bad thing that had ever happened to him onto Tommy Dreamer because Tommy likes the fans, was where you need to separate "Hey, I kinda agree with him" from "Jesus man, calm down!" Precisely. Heels can be right and still be good heels. It all comes down to their actions in response to whatever's happened to them.
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WR91
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Post by WR91 on Mar 25, 2020 5:32:35 GMT -5
Still the BEST in ring performer of all time. To me, 1997 onward was just extra anyway.
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 25, 2020 5:38:55 GMT -5
Their motivations can be justified, ie Foley being upset that a fan had a sign advocating the brutal beating of his 3 year old son is valid. His reaction, to inflict every single bad thing that had ever happened to him onto Tommy Dreamer because Tommy likes the fans, was where you need to separate "Hey, I kinda agree with him" from "Jesus man, calm down!" Precisely. Heels can be right and still be good heels. It all comes down to their actions in response to whatever's happened to them. Right. A heel can reconcile their actions any way they want, and say that what they do is justified. Shortcuts are meant to be taken and really no big deal, they deserve success at any cost, a slight cannot be forgiven, etc. Even ones who admit to being plainly evil still usually feel in the right, like Jake Roberts saying it's simply his nature, or Kane lashing out at a world that wronged him and favored his brother. Doesn't make them not a heel.
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