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Post by ANuclearError on Mar 21, 2020 14:13:23 GMT -5
The part that really hit me was David talking about his relationship with Nancy & Daniel. I knew he wasn't Nancy's biological kid, but hearing him talk about how she had embraced him and how him & Daniel were gonna be tag-team champions one day was really impactful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2020 14:55:03 GMT -5
I kind of wished they had mentioned Benoit winning the WCW Championship and then just dropping it without losing, but that wasn't the focus of the story (though, as someone who never watched "Hart Knocks", I bet WWE made sure to mention that in great detail cause "hurr hurr, WCW sucks!").
Listening to these people, Chris was a very eccentric individual; machine-like, neurotic, and exclusive to his craft. That which made him one of the best in the industry also made him so ill-adjusted to life away from the ring and society in general that it was no wonder Eddie Guerrero was his anchor, and when Eddie died, Benoit mentally collapsed. Naturally, one can never excuse him for what he did, yet given his unique mentality, his choice of role model in the Dynamite Kid (not the best choice when you think about it), everything he would do in the ring, and how the industry didn't provide much help for mental health, it was a perfect storm for someone with that broken a brain to fall apart.
Part two is gonna be a doozy.
I'm going to see some other episodes on Viceland's website, starting with the Von Erich's as I followed the Lapsed Fan take thoroughly and want to hear their take on it followed by another World Class tragedy; Gino Hernandez's murder.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 21, 2020 16:56:08 GMT -5
They did an excellent job on this. I think stuff they left out was in part to squash any conspiracy jabber. Saying Sullivan got the book before Benoit left gives a little in for the people who think Sullivan killed them. Saying they left because they never got the main event and then leaving out Benoit was world champion and had main evented the night before and was supposed to that night just adds noise. A more irresponsible documentary also probably would have implied more about Eddie and Chris’ relationship was going on. Especially since they left out just how many of Benoit’s friends died and how that was affecting him. Fair point: I could definitely see the first episode being a chance to lay out what happened based on the words of the people closest to Chris or who knew the most about him personally or professionally, with part two diving into the investigations and the deluded theories that came out of that (e.g. "Sullivan did it", "roid rage", "demoted to ECW from the Four Horsemen", etc.). It could be a chance to say "Chris did use steroids, but here's why that doesn't appear to have been a driving factor in the killings", or "Sullivan did return to booking WCW, but that's not what caused all this", etc.). Leave it out now and just keep things focused on the accounts of those closest to Chris.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2020 17:13:10 GMT -5
Did we really need the dramatisation of what Eddie and Vickie got up to in bed? I can't unsee that now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2020 17:28:54 GMT -5
Is the video gonna eventually be released for rest of the world? Have you gone to Viceland's website? On this subject, a person on YouTube decided to take the plunge and chronicled every Benoit match for his last 100 days, inter-spliced with his personal opinions on why conspiracy theories were created and how the reality of a man who clearly had deteriorating mental faculties couldn't be that forward thinking nor someone from that industry could be a victim of a robbery gone wrong. I've always stated that I started watching for real around February 2007, so this is getting towards the tail end of his life (when he was in a feud with MVP that featured MVP beating up local enhancement talent dressed in stereotypical ethnic garb over the US Championship), so I only have experience when he's looking like hell.
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Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on Mar 21, 2020 17:44:28 GMT -5
They did an excellent job on this. I think stuff they left out was in part to squash any conspiracy jabber. Saying Sullivan got the book before Benoit left gives a little in for the people who think Sullivan killed them. Saying they left because they never got the main event and then leaving out Benoit was world champion and had main evented the night before and was supposed to that night just adds noise. A more irresponsible documentary also probably would have implied more about Eddie and Chris’ relationship was going on. Especially since they left out just how many of Benoit’s friends died and how that was affecting him. Fair point: I could definitely see the first episode being a chance to lay out what happened based on the words of the people closest to Chris or who knew the most about him personally or professionally, with part two diving into the investigations and the deluded theories that came out of that (e.g. "Sullivan did it", "roid rage", "demoted to ECW from the Four Horsemen", etc.). It could be a chance to say "Chris did use steroids, but here's why that doesn't appear to have been a driving factor in the killings", or "Sullivan did return to booking WCW, but that's not what caused all this", etc.). Leave it out now and just keep things focused on the accounts of those closest to Chris. And it’s not really important to the story of the murders. Wrestling fans know the history and non-fans who may see this won’t care. The Radicalz showing up on Raw is a huge and interesting part of the MNW and an important part of their stories just not this story.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 21, 2020 19:13:21 GMT -5
They may cover this in the 2nd part, but it wasn't just Eddie dying (though I'm sure that was the biggest part). After Eddie's death Johnny Grunge died and he was someone that Chris relied on to help him cope with pain (and marital problems) and Black Cat died as well (someone who was Chris's mentor in Japan). Chris's original tag partner in wrestling Biff Wellington died around the same time. And that all played a part.
Still really well done. I hope to hear more from Jericho as it sounds like they had been very close for a long time and as he said in this out of nowhere it felt like the friendship ended (and from Jericho's 2nd book it sounds like Chris would pick random times to call)
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Blindkarevik
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Post by Blindkarevik on Mar 21, 2020 19:23:28 GMT -5
I honestly feel like this two parter might have an angel/devil feel to it. The first part, while it had to talk about Benoit's slide... it really seemed to highlight the good points of Chris. The second part will probably get deeper into the hard, uncomfortable facts.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Mar 21, 2020 19:30:58 GMT -5
Chris Benoit was someone with a lot of mental health issues who spent far too long in wrestling getting his bell rung, and watching his best friends die.
Hindsight is 20/20 but, with everything we know about him now, it probably shouldn't have come as too much of a surprise it didn't end well.
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Mar 21, 2020 20:13:10 GMT -5
I honestly feel like this two parter might have an angel/devil feel to it. The first part, while it had to talk about Benoit's slide... it really seemed to highlight the good points of Chris. The second part will probably get deeper into the hard, uncomfortable facts. And I think that's both an intelligent and incredibly important thing to do. People with opinions on the tragedy usually fall into one of two categories - he was a murdering piece of shit who should rot, or he was a saint who was simply a victim of circumstance, and neither of those blanket statements accurately describes what happened with Benoit. It's more nuanced and layered than either side would be willing to admit, and I'm glad this documentary is coming at it exactly from that angle.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 21, 2020 20:16:53 GMT -5
I honestly feel like this two parter might have an angel/devil feel to it. The first part, while it had to talk about Benoit's slide... it really seemed to highlight the good points of Chris. The second part will probably get deeper into the hard, uncomfortable facts. And I think that's both an intelligent and incredibly important thing to do. People with opinions on the tragedy usually fall into one of two categories - he was a murdering piece of shit who should rot, or he was a saint who was simply a victim of circumstance, and neither of those blanket statements accurately describes what happened with Benoit. It's more nuanced and layered than either side would be willing to admit, and I'm glad this documentary is coming at it exactly from that angle. Having listened to people like Jericho and Nancy's sister that both loved the Benoit the knew but also condemn him for what he did and basically said he doesn't deserve to be honored because of that. Jericho even has said one thing that he will never be able to forgive Chris for is what he did to his other children.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 21, 2020 21:22:06 GMT -5
It really is the terrifying thing about mental issues and injuries to the brain: how it can take a person you know and love and just utterly change them, or make them prone to things you'd never recognize in them.
I mean, as they said here, Chris was a loving father, husband, and among his close circle a close friend, along with being a big time professional in his career. All of that was real, as best we can tell. It wasn't some grand facade, wasn't him putting on an act, no wrestling kayfabe, no mask to cover ulterior motives.
And yet the damage, downfall, and tragedy still came, and that was real, as well. It wasn't an evil spirit possessing him, it wasn't a conspiracy or staged event to frame him, it wasn't entirely one person or group's fault that we can all point the finger at. It happened, it was real.
The challenge everyone confronts, especially those who knew him, is how the very real good man could also be the very real disturbed murderer, and the terrifying thought many of us don't ever want to consider is that our brain chemistry can play a gigantic role in making such seeming contradictions reality.
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Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on Mar 21, 2020 22:38:08 GMT -5
They may cover this in the 2nd part, but it wasn't just Eddie dying (though I'm sure that was the biggest part). After Eddie's death Johnny Grunge died and he was someone that Chris relied on to help him cope with pain (and marital problems) and Black Cat died as well (someone who was Chris's mentor in Japan). Chris's original tag partner in wrestling Biff Wellington died around the same time. And that all played a part. Still really well done. I hope to hear more from Jericho as it sounds like they had been very close for a long time and as he said in this out of nowhere it felt like the friendship ended (and from Jericho's 2nd book it sounds like Chris would pick random times to call) Biff Wellington was found dead the same day Benoit killed them all.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Mar 22, 2020 0:27:30 GMT -5
God, I never heard that Chavo held Eddie as he died; that was an absolute gut punch, the poor guy. yeah, that nearly broke me. I'll say it a million times, I never like it when people shit on Chavo due to how closely involved he was with both the tragedies. Wait... I thought Eddie died in his sleep?
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Mar 22, 2020 0:33:21 GMT -5
yeah, that nearly broke me. I'll say it a million times, I never like it when people shit on Chavo due to how closely involved he was with both the tragedies. Wait... I thought Eddie died in his sleep? He was found in the hotel bathroom. Died while brushing his teeth.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Mar 22, 2020 0:56:32 GMT -5
Wait... I thought Eddie died in his sleep? He was found in the hotel bathroom. Died while brushing his teeth. Yea, I think I was mixing him and Pillman up.
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Post by thechase on Mar 22, 2020 4:11:37 GMT -5
I kind of wished they had mentioned Benoit winning the WCW Championship and then just dropping it without losing, but that wasn't the focus of the story (though, as someone who never watched "Hart Knocks", I bet WWE made sure to mention that in great detail cause "hurr hurr, WCW sucks!"). According to Benoit himself, he thought of the WCW title win as a "stale accomplishment", not much else was specified other than "Sullivan books people badly"
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Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on Mar 22, 2020 4:15:04 GMT -5
I kind of wished they had mentioned Benoit winning the WCW Championship and then just dropping it without losing, but that wasn't the focus of the story (though, as someone who never watched "Hart Knocks", I bet WWE made sure to mention that in great detail cause "hurr hurr, WCW sucks!"). According to Benoit himself, he thought of the WCW title win as a "stale accomplishment", not much else was specified Well by the time he won it he knew it was a transparent ploy to keep him happy and within the company. It was WCW and their usual bumbling that lead to him just leaving it with Charles Robinson when he decided to f*** off, since he offered to job it before he did.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 22, 2020 6:59:27 GMT -5
That was really powerful and yes really hard to get through with just how hard you could tell the interviewees were taking it
It was really hard seeing Vickie, Chavo, and David like that. David's still wanting to get into the business and continue his dad's legacy and there have been numerous opinions about how good or bad of an idea that is, Jericho's kept a close eye on him, he apparently makes really good money doing I think oil rigs in Canada so at least he has a really good job if he never does get into the business.
After watching that how can you not wish happy healthy lives for people like Vickie and Chavo? Bless them, they really went through a period of absolute hell none of us could ever fathom.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Mar 22, 2020 10:52:06 GMT -5
Excellent doc, very well done.
As an aside, I love docs that have the interviewee looking directly at the camera.
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