Mecca
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by Mecca on May 18, 2020 14:10:37 GMT -5
I think you point has a bit of merit as far as not doing the job, but there are a ton of other reasons the NBA hasn't gotten back to that level. 1. No one else is Jordan, replacing him is impossible, dude knew how to market himself, stay clean and be great. In the era of social media it's hard for an athlete to stay squeaky clean. Jordan had the mixture of being a great dude and also being a great player that had substance and flash. You see the stuff now about him being a dick etc, if that were today we'd all know about it within minutes. The 24 hour news cycle mixed the internet and social media has left nothing behind closed doors,good and bad. 2. The teams/players that follows Jordan really struggled to meet the same level. Generally the Spurs were thought of as being boring as hell. Kobe got arrested for rape etc.. 3. Todays NBA is a players league above all else. There is a section of fans that are completely turned off by mega teams and dudes recruiting each other in free agency. Lebrons team hopping has tarnished his legacy to a ton of people. 4. Style of play, I personally have friends that were NBA fans that don't watch it now because "Golden State ruined the NBA' All they do is shoot 3's and miss etc etc All of these things play in to why it's different today. I came across this exchange on twitter if anyone questions the Lebron/team hopping point I made.. I wish we could go back in time and see LeBron play against the Bad Boy Pistons with 1980’s NBA rules just to see what would happen. He wouldn’t. He’d play on the Pistons. And recruit Magic and Olajuwon there too Once again I will cut LeBron slack I think he is mentally weak or was mentally weak up until his 2nd run with the Cavs but if you made him get aggressive, he would. Take him out the current day mindset where he can flop and all that and put him in the era where you had to get your shit and he does better then people think LeBron doesn't have loyalty to a team so I can see like those early years where Jordan is getting beat by Boston and Det and learning how to win, LeBron might be ready to skate but no superstars really moved from team to team and if you did, he wouldn't find anyone as willing as Wade to say this is your team now. Look at Adrian Dantley, who is one of the greatest scorers of all time but they took that man out of Det because he didn't fit I'm not even saying you're wrong, I'm saying his perception as a team hopper destroyed him in the minds of fans. There is still a huge section of fans that hate that shit and want guys to stay where they start. Like I think in most sports free agency is acceptable, but Lebron is viewed by many as the superteam starter with the decision and that is not something a ton of people look at the NBA for fondly right now.
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WR91
Bubba Ho-Tep
FAN 14685
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Post by WR91 on May 18, 2020 14:24:43 GMT -5
"...The Bulls began to rebuild." a rebuild that's arguably continuing to this day. Unfortunately.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 14:53:54 GMT -5
Once again I will cut LeBron slack I think he is mentally weak or was mentally weak up until his 2nd run with the Cavs but if you made him get aggressive, he would. Take him out the current day mindset where he can flop and all that and put him in the era where you had to get your shit and he does better then people think LeBron doesn't have loyalty to a team so I can see like those early years where Jordan is getting beat by Boston and Det and learning how to win, LeBron might be ready to skate but no superstars really moved from team to team and if you did, he wouldn't find anyone as willing as Wade to say this is your team now. Look at Adrian Dantley, who is one of the greatest scorers of all time but they took that man out of Det because he didn't fit I'm not even saying you're wrong, I'm saying his perception as a team hopper destroyed him in the minds of fans. There is still a huge section of fans that hate that shit and want guys to stay where they start. Like I think in most sports free agency is acceptable, but Lebron is viewed by many as the superteam starter with the decision and that is not something a ton of people look at the NBA for fondly right now. It was almost an unspoken rule that you don't join a team to chase a ring in your prime. Barkley went to the Rockets at the end of his prime. Malone and Payton went to the Lakers at the end and past their prime. KG and Allen were at the end of their prime With LeBron, because ring, ring, ring is all that was being talked about and he made that move, the narrative changed to being more acceptable to chase a ring in your prime. KD followed suit after him. I don't like it. I'm glad guys like Dame Lillard is willing to say f*** it, let me stay in one my spot as long as possible. Rings will almost be overvalued now if that makes sense. I think we are reaching back to a point where rings aren't the only thing that matters in your career
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 15:15:31 GMT -5
I don’t mind if a star player leaves their team, but to join (or create) a super team in the process should not be celebrated. What Durant did was worse, but LBJ created that blueprint. A GM creating a super team through trades and drafting is fine (late 00’s Celtics) but LBJ took it to a level where even comparing him to Jordan is laughable and insulting. Since LeBron can manipulate the media like a puppet master, he has a line a mile long of analysts ready to kiss his ass when necessary. Hopefully this doc sheds enough light on Jordan so that the youngsters know that there is no comparison.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 15:23:37 GMT -5
I don’t mind if a star player leaves their team, but to join (or create) a super team in the process should not be celebrated. What Durant did was worse, but LBJ created that blueprint. A GM creating a super team through trades and drafting is fine (late 00’s Celtics) but LBJ took it to a level where even comparing him to Jordan is laughable and insulting. Since LeBron can manipulate the media like a puppet master, he has a line a mile long of analysts ready to kiss his ass when necessary. Hopefully this doc sheds enough light on Jordan so that the youngsters know that there is no comparison. The documentary without question re-established Jordan as the GOAT For me, LeBron DQ'd himself out of this when he left the Cavs for Miami. He will go down as the greatest statistical player ever to grace the game but he will chase Jordan shadow and not be the standard that Jordan is And putting my own personal bias in there, i've always steered toward players who don't give a f***. It is why Kobe and MJ are my favorite players as when they stepped on that court they became dogs. LeBron always struck me as a guy who would laugh in your face and then telling the GM he is ready to trade you behind your back. I didn't blame Kyrie when he decided to get out of Cleveland because we all knew LeBron was not staying and Kyrie beat him to the punch
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 15:41:19 GMT -5
I don’t mind if a star player leaves their team, but to join (or create) a super team in the process should not be celebrated. What Durant did was worse, but LBJ created that blueprint. A GM creating a super team through trades and drafting is fine (late 00’s Celtics) but LBJ took it to a level where even comparing him to Jordan is laughable and insulting. Since LeBron can manipulate the media like a puppet master, he has a line a mile long of analysts ready to kiss his ass when necessary. Hopefully this doc sheds enough light on Jordan so that the youngsters know that there is no comparison. The documentary without question re-established Jordan as the GOAT For me, LeBron DQ'd himself out of this when he left the Cavs for Miami. He will go down as the greatest statistical player ever to grace the game but he will chase Jordan shadow and not be the standard that Jordan is And putting my own personal bias in there, i've always steered toward players who don't give a f***. It is why Kobe and MJ are my favorite players as when they stepped on that court they became dogs. LeBron always struck me as a guy who would laugh in your face and then telling the GM he is ready to trade you behind your back. I didn't blame Kyrie when he decided to get out of Cleveland because we all knew LeBron was not staying and Kyrie beat him to the punch Yeah, I feel like Kobe didn’t get enough respect in any MJ comparisons, but now he might due to his death (which is unfair since he’s not alive to hear it but can’t control that). He wasn’t on MJ’s level, but his game and mindset was a lot closer to MJ’s than LBJ ever was. Having seen Kawhi closely last year I think he’s the current player who most resembles MJ in terms of style and mindset but even he pulled the “want to play with another star” card. It’s easier to do that though after winning a title without another top 10 player on your team. The best thing about this doc is that, as you said, it reestablishes MJ as the greatest for anyone too young to have seen him. A lot of the youngsters who buy Jordan’s never even saw him. He was like a fictional character. Now this doc painted the picture perfectly.
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Bang Bang Bart
Ozymandius
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on May 18, 2020 15:52:07 GMT -5
The documentary without question re-established Jordan as the GOAT For me, LeBron DQ'd himself out of this when he left the Cavs for Miami. He will go down as the greatest statistical player ever to grace the game but he will chase Jordan shadow and not be the standard that Jordan is And putting my own personal bias in there, i've always steered toward players who don't give a f***. It is why Kobe and MJ are my favorite players as when they stepped on that court they became dogs. LeBron always struck me as a guy who would laugh in your face and then telling the GM he is ready to trade you behind your back. I didn't blame Kyrie when he decided to get out of Cleveland because we all knew LeBron was not staying and Kyrie beat him to the punch Yeah, I feel like Kobe didn’t get enough respect in any MJ comparisons, but now he might due to his death (which is unfair since he’s not alive to hear it but can’t control that). He wasn’t on MJ’s level, but his game and mindset was a lot closer to MJ’s than LBJ ever was. Having seen Kawhi closely last year I think he’s the current player who most resembles MJ in terms of style and mindset but even he pulled the “want to play with another star” card. It’s easier to do that though after winning a title without another top 10 player on your team. The best thing about this doc is that, as you said, it reestablishes MJ as the greatest for anyone too young to have seen him. A lot of the youngsters who buy Jordan’s never even saw him. He was like a fictional character. Now this doc painted the picture perfectly. At the very least, Kawhi gutted it out for the one season he was in Toronto and led them to a championship run, so you can't really paint him as a "quitter".
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
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Post by Push R Truth on May 18, 2020 15:56:24 GMT -5
I'm going to toss a pro wrestling kinda line out there... The NBA suffered because the Bulls didn't have a chance to pass the torch. You can trace a line from distinct line passed back and forth between Celtics, Lakers, the 76ers, The Pistons, Rockets and the Bulls. But the Bulls breaking up was like vacating a world title and having a tournament to fill the vacancy. 1980ish-1998 was an era with a full stop end.
Felt like the NBA spent 5 years with the New Blood Lakers vs Spurs going back and forth trying to establish the New Era.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 15:56:46 GMT -5
Yeah, I feel like Kobe didn’t get enough respect in any MJ comparisons, but now he might due to his death (which is unfair since he’s not alive to hear it but can’t control that). He wasn’t on MJ’s level, but his game and mindset was a lot closer to MJ’s than LBJ ever was. Having seen Kawhi closely last year I think he’s the current player who most resembles MJ in terms of style and mindset but even he pulled the “want to play with another star” card. It’s easier to do that though after winning a title without another top 10 player on your team. The best thing about this doc is that, as you said, it reestablishes MJ as the greatest for anyone too young to have seen him. A lot of the youngsters who buy Jordan’s never even saw him. He was like a fictional character. Now this doc painted the picture perfectly. At the very least, Kawhi gutted it out for the one season he was in Toronto and led them to a championship run, so you can't really paint him as a "quitter". Kawhi definitely isn’t a quitter. He wanted to go back home and he did. The only criticism would be that he maneuvered to get PG traded there at the same time, so it’s somewhat LBJ-esque but since he just won a title and finals MVP on a team without another superstar on it, his legacy was already cemented.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 16:06:06 GMT -5
I'm going to toss a pro wrestling kinda line out there... The NBA suffered because the Bulls didn't have a chance to pass the torch. You can trace a line from distinct line passed back and forth between Celtics, Lakers, the 76ers, The Pistons, Rockets and the Bulls. But the Bulls breaking up was like vacating a world title and having a tournament to fill the vacancy. 1980ish-1998 was an era with a full stop end. Felt like the NBA spent 5 years with the New Blood Lakers vs Spurs going back and forth trying to establish the New Era. Ehh that's not how that really works tho Bulls losing would have had the same effect. Just beating a team isn't enough, you need a rivalry with them. If let's say Utah beat the Bulls in 99-00 then it would have been a passing of the torch per se because they had ground. The best the NBA could have hoped for was a young team like Orlando led by Penny and Shaq faced the Bulls their first few times in the playoffs and losing to them each time only to overcome them and win a chip but that didn't happen for variety of reasons
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,218
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Post by Push R Truth on May 18, 2020 16:12:28 GMT -5
I'm going to toss a pro wrestling kinda line out there... The NBA suffered because the Bulls didn't have a chance to pass the torch. You can trace a line from distinct line passed back and forth between Celtics, Lakers, the 76ers, The Pistons, Rockets and the Bulls. But the Bulls breaking up was like vacating a world title and having a tournament to fill the vacancy. 1980ish-1998 was an era with a full stop end. Felt like the NBA spent 5 years with the New Blood Lakers vs Spurs going back and forth trying to establish the New Era. Ehh that's not how that really works tho Bulls losing would have had the same effect. Just beating a team isn't enough, you need a rivalry with them. If let's say Utah beat the Bulls in 99-00 then it would have been a passing of the torch per se because they had ground. The best the NBA could have hoped for was a young team like Orlando led by Penny and Shaq faced the Bulls their first few times in the playoffs and losing to them each time only to overcome them and win a chip but that didn't happen for variety of reasons We'll agree to disagree.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 16:14:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I feel like Kobe didn’t get enough respect in any MJ comparisons, but now he might due to his death (which is unfair since he’s not alive to hear it but can’t control that). He wasn’t on MJ’s level, but his game and mindset was a lot closer to MJ’s than LBJ ever was. Having seen Kawhi closely last year I think he’s the current player who most resembles MJ in terms of style and mindset but even he pulled the “want to play with another star” card. It’s easier to do that though after winning a title without another top 10 player on your team. The best thing about this doc is that, as you said, it reestablishes MJ as the greatest for anyone too young to have seen him. A lot of the youngsters who buy Jordan’s never even saw him. He was like a fictional character. Now this doc painted the picture perfectly. At the very least, Kawhi gutted it out for the one season he was in Toronto and led them to a championship run, so you can't really paint him as a "quitter". In an era where superteams have dominated the NBA the last 10 years, what Kawhi did for Toronto should not be overlooked and is lowkey one of the greatest performances ever
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Dave the Dave
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by Dave the Dave on May 18, 2020 18:20:09 GMT -5
Rodman and Buechler deserve props for that game 7 against Indiana. I just watched that game. Those two came in and out a lightning rod in that defense.
This series has been great
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
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Post by fw91 on May 18, 2020 22:05:04 GMT -5
I don’t mind if a star player leaves their team, but to join (or create) a super team in the process should not be celebrated. What Durant did was worse, but LBJ created that blueprint. A GM creating a super team through trades and drafting is fine (late 00’s Celtics) but LBJ took it to a level where even comparing him to Jordan is laughable and insulting. Since LeBron can manipulate the media like a puppet master, he has a line a mile long of analysts ready to kiss his ass when necessary. Hopefully this doc sheds enough light on Jordan so that the youngsters know that there is no comparison. Agreed. And the bandwagoning only makes it worse. It's tampering and makes the whole league not worth watching. Why get excited about a team drafting a stud prospect if he's going to leave to join a super team once his rookie contract expires?
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Post by cabbageboy on May 18, 2020 22:57:07 GMT -5
It depends on when someone does it. I don't give Barkley much grief over joining Hakeem and Drexler with the Rockets because all of those guys were kind of past their peak by then and looking to make a final run. It was a little odd to join the guys that made the Suns's lives miserable, but whatever. It was a little bit worse when Malone and Payton joined the Lakers for 2003-04, but again, two veteran guys trying to make a final serious run at a title. In Payton's case he actually did do this later with the Heat in 2006. Aging vets trying to make a last stand is different from guys in their prime just giving up on winning with their current team and joining up with other megastars to form super teams. That's why I cringe at these "2017 Warriors vs. 1996 Bulls" hypothetical match ups. The Warriors could very well win such a series, but that isn't the point. The point is that Durant joining them made him look like a punk since it was literally a "I can't beat them so I'll join them" situation. It would be like Jordan losing to the Cavs in 1989 and then joining them, or joining the Lakers if they had lost the 1991 Finals (he wouldn't join the Pistons under any circumstances).
One aspect that this documentary didn't really discuss was the overall declining level of play in the East by the end of the 1990s, which wasn't that obvious as long as Jordan was around. I tend to trace this to Riley moving on to the Heat, which led to all of the gooning of the Knicks/Heat rivalry that really defined the late 90s about as much as the Bulls. There were multiple playoff series marred by fighting and even Van Gundy was trying to grab Mourning in a famous moment. By the early 2000s the East was utterly terrible basketball to watch, whereas the West might not have won many titles in the 90s but at least it didn't have the legacy of thug ball (Bad Boy Pistons, 90s Knicks, late 90s Heat) and remained enjoyable. Take away the Jordan theatrics and the East had a bunch of hot garbage 88-84 type games. I think it really took the East until the time when the Celtics Big 3 was in place and some teams like Magic got pretty decent along with the Cavs before the East was anything I'd care to watch.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 19, 2020 1:28:38 GMT -5
It depends on when someone does it. I don't give Barkley much grief over joining Hakeem and Drexler with the Rockets because all of those guys were kind of past their peak by then and looking to make a final run. It was a little odd to join the guys that made the Suns's lives miserable, but whatever. It was a little bit worse when Malone and Payton joined the Lakers for 2003-04, but again, two veteran guys trying to make a final serious run at a title. In Payton's case he actually did do this later with the Heat in 2006. Aging vets trying to make a last stand is different from guys in their prime just giving up on winning with their current team and joining up with other megastars to form super teams. That's why I cringe at these "2017 Warriors vs. 1996 Bulls" hypothetical match ups. The Warriors could very well win such a series, but that isn't the point. The point is that Durant joining them made him look like a punk since it was literally a "I can't beat them so I'll join them" situation. It would be like Jordan losing to the Cavs in 1989 and then joining them, or joining the Lakers if they had lost the 1991 Finals (he wouldn't join the Pistons under any circumstances). One aspect that this documentary didn't really discuss was the overall declining level of play in the East by the end of the 1990s, which wasn't that obvious as long as Jordan was around. I tend to trace this to Riley moving on to the Heat, which led to all of the gooning of the Knicks/Heat rivalry that really defined the late 90s about as much as the Bulls. There were multiple playoff series marred by fighting and even Van Gundy was trying to grab Mourning in a famous moment. By the early 2000s the East was utterly terrible basketball to watch, whereas the West might not have won many titles in the 90s but at least it didn't have the legacy of thug ball (Bad Boy Pistons, 90s Knicks, late 90s Heat) and remained enjoyable. Take away the Jordan theatrics and the East had a bunch of hot garbage 88-84 type games. I think it really took the East until the time when the Celtics Big 3 was in place and some teams like Magic got pretty decent along with the Cavs before the East was anything I'd care to watch. I grew up in Boston during the early 2000s and I can personally attest that the Pacers/Pistons/Nets era was miserable to watch.
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Post by The Rick Jericho on May 19, 2020 19:24:26 GMT -5
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 19, 2020 20:40:12 GMT -5
I think Scott Burrell was going to show up with an Uzi looking for Mike one of those days
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 20:51:18 GMT -5
It depends on when someone does it. I don't give Barkley much grief over joining Hakeem and Drexler with the Rockets because all of those guys were kind of past their peak by then and looking to make a final run. It was a little odd to join the guys that made the Suns's lives miserable, but whatever. It was a little bit worse when Malone and Payton joined the Lakers for 2003-04, but again, two veteran guys trying to make a final serious run at a title. In Payton's case he actually did do this later with the Heat in 2006. Aging vets trying to make a last stand is different from guys in their prime just giving up on winning with their current team and joining up with other megastars to form super teams. That's why I cringe at these "2017 Warriors vs. 1996 Bulls" hypothetical match ups. The Warriors could very well win such a series, but that isn't the point. The point is that Durant joining them made him look like a punk since it was literally a "I can't beat them so I'll join them" situation. It would be like Jordan losing to the Cavs in 1989 and then joining them, or joining the Lakers if they had lost the 1991 Finals (he wouldn't join the Pistons under any circumstances). One aspect that this documentary didn't really discuss was the overall declining level of play in the East by the end of the 1990s, which wasn't that obvious as long as Jordan was around. I tend to trace this to Riley moving on to the Heat, which led to all of the gooning of the Knicks/Heat rivalry that really defined the late 90s about as much as the Bulls. There were multiple playoff series marred by fighting and even Van Gundy was trying to grab Mourning in a famous moment. By the early 2000s the East was utterly terrible basketball to watch, whereas the West might not have won many titles in the 90s but at least it didn't have the legacy of thug ball (Bad Boy Pistons, 90s Knicks, late 90s Heat) and remained enjoyable. Take away the Jordan theatrics and the East had a bunch of hot garbage 88-84 type games. I think it really took the East until the time when the Celtics Big 3 was in place and some teams like Magic got pretty decent along with the Cavs before the East was anything I'd care to watch. I grew up in Boston during the early 2000s and I can personally attest that the Pacers/Pistons/Nets era was miserable to watch. They HAD to hire the vampire as coach/GM and pass on a few possible choices as coach instead, didn't they?
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Perd on May 19, 2020 20:52:44 GMT -5
I saw someone compare MJ to Arya Stark and thought it was pretty funny. They both hold grudges against anyone they see as having wronged them. And they both usually win in the end.
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