BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,767
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Post by BRV on May 19, 2020 20:59:53 GMT -5
I grew up in Boston during the early 2000s and I can personally attest that the Pacers/Pistons/Nets era was miserable to watch. www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200205100BOS.htmlCeltics 66, Pistons 64. This was a PLAYOFF GAME in 2002. I watched it when it happened and remember feeling like the villains at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when the Ark opens. If Dr. James Naismith were resurrected and watched that game, he'd immediately ask to be buried again. As far as I can tell, this is the only video evidence that remains of that game, because I'm pretty sure posting any clips of it remains a crime against the laws of The Hague:
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 20, 2020 12:08:15 GMT -5
Horace Grant was not a fan of the documentary but his points come as sour grapes
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,767
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Post by BRV on May 20, 2020 14:29:38 GMT -5
One aspect that this documentary didn't really discuss was the overall declining level of play in the East by the end of the 1990s, which wasn't that obvious as long as Jordan was around. I tend to trace this to Riley moving on to the Heat, which led to all of the gooning of the Knicks/Heat rivalry that really defined the late 90s about as much as the Bulls. There were multiple playoff series marred by fighting and even Van Gundy was trying to grab Mourning in a famous moment. By the early 2000s the East was utterly terrible basketball to watch, whereas the West might not have won many titles in the 90s but at least it didn't have the legacy of thug ball (Bad Boy Pistons, 90s Knicks, late 90s Heat) and remained enjoyable. Take away the Jordan theatrics and the East had a bunch of hot garbage 88-84 type games. I think it really took the East until the time when the Celtics Big 3 was in place and some teams like Magic got pretty decent along with the Cavs before the East was anything I'd care to watch. The NBA got really lousy in the late-90s into the mid-2000s because they expanded too quickly without having the talent pool to match it. When the Toronto Raptors and Vancouver Grizzlies arrived in 1995-96, then the Charlotte Bobcats were created in 2004, the NBA didn't have the quality level of players to match a 29 (and then 30) team league. Pair that with draft classes being filled with too many high school players who clearly weren't ready for the NBA, but thought they could replicate Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady, or European players that GMs were sure were going to be the next Dirk Nowitzki or Toni Kukoc. That's how you ended up with Kwame Brown and Eddy Curry being drafted in the top-five right out of high school, or DeSagana Diop and Nikoloz Tskitishvili being top-10 picks. The NBA didn't really stabilize until the late-2000s when the talent pool began to match the amount of teams, high school players received the proper amount of seasoning in college or the G-League, and scouts understood when international players were ready to cross the pond.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 20, 2020 15:00:54 GMT -5
Horace Grant was not a fan of the documentary but his points come as sour grapes Scottie I think has a right to feel some way but even then, he still said he would do the shit he did 30 years ago. He would still sit out because Kukoc got the play call. Scottie got down wrong money wise but he did not make himself look good In regards to Grant, I get saying well Jordan "told on people" with the coke, weed and all that stuff but he didn't name names. In order for you to get the full picture of Michael Jordan, that is part of the story For Horace, their is a bit of sour grapes. I still think he is upset that he never got his due as it was always Scottie and MJ as the main focus when he was the 3rd piece in the first 3 peat. He was a good player and borderline all star and a part of him wants more of his due for being a big part of the title wins
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 20, 2020 15:41:44 GMT -5
From a casual basketball fan - I loved the documentary.
About MJ vs LBJ - Jordan didn't want to play with Magic, Bird, Thomas, etc and win championships with them. He wanted to beat them. That puts him above LBJ for me.
I loved Jordan's intensity and drive. I get why people wouldn't like him because of that but I don't mind it one bit. Would have been interesting to see if they could have gone 8 in a row if he didn't take the break.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 20, 2020 16:51:41 GMT -5
The sad thing about Grant is that I think he's quite the underrated HOF level player (he had higher Win Shares and W/S per 48 than Pippen most years from 1988-93, aside from 1991). His best year was 1992 where his Win Share and W/S per 48 were both #3 in the league. But I don't see why he's doing these interviews. If he wasn't on TV ranting about The Jordan Rules and replaying grudges from nearly 30 years ago would anyone possibly care? I don't even recall Jordan directly accusing him of being a leak to Sam Smith, just that he wondered about it. It was a few other guys that mentioned that they thought it was Horace.
As far as expansion goes, why is it the quality of the league didn't crater badly with the late 80s barrage of Charlotte, Miami, Orlando, and Minnesota? That's far more teams entering all at once than adding the Grizzlies and Raptors. The Bulls actually lost to the expansion Raptors in 1996, a bit mentioned by Joe Mantegna at one point. He was looking forward to having a post game dinner with Jackson, Jordan, etc. and it wasn't quite the great time he had in mind. NBA expansion has been on my mind greatly of late, since I've been reading about the ABA and the KY Colonels and there's the ever present discussion of Louisville getting a team. Whenever that next expansion happens I figure the NBA will move to 32 teams and realign a bit, and we all know the Seattle SuperSonics will be one of those teams. The other would need to be an Eastern Conference team to balance it out (which would rule out San Diego, Vegas, Vancouver, etc. although Memphis or someone could relocate). Given U of L's ongoing woes with the NCAA this would be an ideal time for an NBA team. It's just a matter of getting the ownership in place and figuring out the lease/dates on the KFC Yum Center.
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Post by arrogantmodel on May 20, 2020 20:51:46 GMT -5
From a casual basketball fan - I loved the documentary. About MJ vs LBJ - Jordan didn't want to play with Magic, Bird, Thomas, etc and win championships with them. He wanted to beat them. That puts him above LBJ for me. I loved Jordan's intensity and drive. I get why people wouldn't like him because of that but I don't mind it one bit. Would have been interesting to see if they could have gone 8 in a row if he didn't take the break. People don't like others with drive and intensity if they can't match it. Every job that I've had, I wanted to be the best. I was the certified coach at one job, in charge of training new people. I showed them the proper way to do everything, but I'm also a laid back guy, so they could find their own groove. All I always asked for, was to show up and work hard. Simple enough, right? But I had so many people roll in late, slack off, try to push work onto other people, etc. And I had to jump in some asses. And then I heard so many of them say, "Jesus, he's cool, but he can be a real asshole." Because I asked them to simply do the job they were hired to do, they would get pissed. I don't want those people on my team either. If I try to help you in your role, and you half-ass it, that makes me look bad, and we all suffer. I wish I was psychotic about it like Jordan. I bust my ass, but he's on another level few of us can get to.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,767
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Post by BRV on May 20, 2020 21:05:23 GMT -5
As far as expansion goes, why is it the quality of the league didn't crater badly with the late 80s barrage of Charlotte, Miami, Orlando, and Minnesota? That's far more teams entering all at once than adding the Grizzlies and Raptors. The NBA was still fairly top-heavy and bottom-heavy with the arrival of the Timberwolves and Magic in 1989-90 (one year after the Hornets and Heat debuted), as four teams failed to crack 20 wins, while six won 55 or more. But still, even without the Raptors and Grizzlies (and later Bobcats), that's still 36 additional roster spots to fill across the NBA, 36 jobs that would have otherwise gone unfilled. Also, as I mentioned earlier, general managers hadn't become obsessed with international players and inexperienced or unprepared high school standouts weren't turning down college for the pros yet, so the NBA Draft was turning out largely pro-ready players, thus the talent pool of young players was a bit deeper in the mid-to-late 80s to sustain a sudden expansion of four teams in two years.
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Post by sfvega on May 21, 2020 2:23:35 GMT -5
Grant has a point. As much as most of the doc is great, there is some of it that is just Mike having a hunch and it being presented as a fact of the story. The situation with Horace is one of those, and if he didn't do it, he has every right to be pissed while Mike opens this long-awaited doc with the hotel coke party story. I love Mike, but this is the peak of "When Mike does it, we look past it because it's Mike."
Krause is to blame for them not having a chance to defend the crown in 99. But also, it's insane that it's his call. In any other sport in recent times when a transcendent player, their other HOF player,and a HOF coach all have an issue with the GM, the GM is gone. It's that simple. He doesn't oust the other 3. If Belichick and Brady had a problem with someone in the front office in NE in the 2000s, who in their right mind would side with the least talented part of that equation? Reinsdorf waited too long to pitch one more year. Scottie demanded a trade in 97, Krause annonuced that this would be Phil's last season in 97, MJ wouldn't play for anyone but Phil. Reinsdorf let Krause paint them into a corner and half-assed a reconciliation to a situation that had become untenable to everyone, believing that Krause had the talent to produce another contending team over one more deep playoff run in 99. He did not produce another playoff win.
Someone mentioned Krause didn't get enough for Pippen and Kerr. They were S&T trades. They don't normally return a lot because you don't really have any leverage. You can't balk because the player just signs there for less money and you get nothing. LeBron in 2009 is probably one of the highest value players in history and his S&T deal hardly returns a ton for Cleveland. That's just the nature of those deals. The rebuild is lost on Krause's fickleness and enthusiasm to undo his own good moves. He drafted twice in the top 15 picks in 99 after fielding a laughable team. Both of them, along with Brad Miller signed in 2000, would become All Stars. But that came after all three left Chicago before the end of the 2002 season.
That trio of Miller, Brand, and Artest is a great frontcourt for that time in the East. Good balance of scoring, defense, and ball handling. And Miller was only 24, Artest and Brand were 21 on rookie deals. There's no real reason why they couldn't have stayed together for 7-8 years, instead of one season. He straight up built a good young core and yeeted into the trash like a Big Mac wrapper. It's like the inverse of that internet story of a guy trading a paper clip into a house. Krause had the greatest dynasty in basketball the last 50 years and he bet on himself and dealt and dealt until the end result was....the 2003/04 Bulls going 23-59 with their weakness being, you guessed it, the frontcourt. That season, John Paxson takes over and ends up drafting Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, and Derrick Rose. Krause wanted to prove that he was a better GM than Jordan was a player, or Phil was a coach. He turned out proving that he wasn't even the best GM of the Bulls in the 2000s and there were basically only 2.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 21, 2020 3:45:04 GMT -5
Krause is to blame for them not having a chance to defend the crown in 99. But also, it's insane that it's his call. In any other sport in recent times when a transcendent player, their other HOF player,and a HOF coach all have an issue with the GM, the GM is gone. It's that simple. He doesn't oust the other 3. If Belichick and Brady had a problem with someone in the front office in NE in the 2000s, who in their right mind would side with the least talented part of that equation? Reinsdorf waited too long to pitch one more year. Scottie demanded a trade in 97, Krause annonuced that this would be Phil's last season in 97, MJ wouldn't play for anyone but Phil. Reinsdorf let Krause paint them into a corner and half-assed a reconciliation to a situation that had become untenable to everyone, believing that Krause had the talent to produce another contending team over one more deep playoff run in 99. He did not produce another playoff win. This, it's happened so many times in other sports over 1 star player, let alone 2 star players and an incredible coach. There's a lot of talk about Krause wanting to rebuild. You don't rebuild with a wrecking ball. Any other team, ok Rodman was done at that point, Scottie, you'd need to get on your hand knees to beg, but move heaven and Earth to keep MJ and Phil, you get them, pay Scottie whatever he wants and yeah, it's an ageing side but you want those guys around to help you bring those younger players into the team. In 1999, you get your new guys, who do they learn from if the best talent is gone? MJ was a horrible person to work with, but he did raise everyone's game and work ethic. Phil was able to motivate and teach people, and you can't tell me even just seeing Scottie in practice wouldn't have helped out. It's what happens in basically every walk of life, you keep the old around to teach the new guys the ropes.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 21, 2020 4:19:07 GMT -5
Grant has a point. As much as most of the doc is great, there is some of it that is just Mike having a hunch and it being presented as a fact of the story. The situation with Horace is one of those, and if he didn't do it, he has every right to be pissed while Mike opens this long-awaited doc with the hotel coke party story. I love Mike, but this is the peak of "When Mike does it, we look past it because it's Mike." Krause is to blame for them not having a chance to defend the crown in 99. But also, it's insane that it's his call. In any other sport in recent times when a transcendent player, their other HOF player,and a HOF coach all have an issue with the GM, the GM is gone. It's that simple. He doesn't oust the other 3. If Belichick and Brady had a problem with someone in the front office in NE in the 2000s, who in their right mind would side with the least talented part of that equation? Reinsdorf waited too long to pitch one more year. Scottie demanded a trade in 97, Krause annonuced that this would be Phil's last season in 97, MJ wouldn't play for anyone but Phil. Reinsdorf let Krause paint them into a corner and half-assed a reconciliation to a situation that had become untenable to everyone, believing that Krause had the talent to produce another contending team over one more deep playoff run in 99. He did not produce another playoff win. Someone mentioned Krause didn't get enough for Pippen and Kerr. They were S&T trades. They don't normally return a lot because you don't really have any leverage. You can't balk because the player just signs there for less money and you get nothing. LeBron in 2009 is probably one of the highest value players in history and his S&T deal hardly returns a ton for Cleveland. That's just the nature of those deals. The rebuild is lost on Krause's fickleness and enthusiasm to undo his own good moves. He drafted twice in the top 15 picks in 99 after fielding a laughable team. Both of them, along with Brad Miller signed in 2000, would become All Stars. But that came after all three left Chicago before the end of the 2002 season. That trio of Miller, Brand, and Artest is a great frontcourt for that time in the East. Good balance of scoring, defense, and ball handling. And Miller was only 24, Artest and Brand were 21 on rookie deals. There's no real reason why they couldn't have stayed together for 7-8 years, instead of one season. He straight up built a good young core and yeeted into the trash like a Big Mac wrapper. It's like the inverse of that internet story of a guy trading a paper clip into a house. Krause had the greatest dynasty in basketball the last 50 years and he bet on himself and dealt and dealt until the end result was....the 2003/04 Bulls going 23-59 with their weakness being, you guessed it, the frontcourt. That season, John Paxson takes over and ends up drafting Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, and Derrick Rose. Krause wanted to prove that he was a better GM than Jordan was a player, or Phil was a coach. He turned out proving that he wasn't even the best GM of the Bulls in the 2000s and there were basically only 2. Reinsdorf is as much to blame for the bulls not going for a repeat title as much as Krause. As stated it isn't uncommon for star players and star GMs to get the benefit because you build your team around them. Magic was running the Lakers when he was a player so it wasn't uncommon for the star player to have the power. You should fired your GM or told him to shut the f*** up. When you rebuild you're talking about contending for a title in maybe within 5 seasons. It is jus backwards to toss away championship years as you're contending now knowing you damn well won't get another Michael Jordan Fickle is the right word. In the end, Krause did get his rebuilding effort and threw it away anyway. He had the best of both worlds. The team went from greatness to what can be seen as a quick rebuilding effort because unlike today teams they didn't kill future assets for the now.
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HeyYo
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 447
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Post by HeyYo on May 21, 2020 6:09:10 GMT -5
From a casual basketball fan - I loved the documentary. About MJ vs LBJ - Jordan didn't want to play with Magic, Bird, Thomas, etc and win championships with them. He wanted to beat them. That puts him above LBJ for me. I loved Jordan's intensity and drive. I get why people wouldn't like him because of that but I don't mind it one bit. Would have been interesting to see if they could have gone 8 in a row if he didn't take the break. People don't like others with drive and intensity if they can't match it. Every job that I've had, I wanted to be the best. I was the certified coach at one job, in charge of training new people. I showed them the proper way to do everything, but I'm also a laid back guy, so they could find their own groove. All I always asked for, was to show up and work hard. Simple enough, right? But I had so many people roll in late, slack off, try to push work onto other people, etc. And I had to jump in some asses. And then I heard so many of them say, "Jesus, he's cool, but he can be a real asshole." Because I asked them to simply do the job they were hired to do, they would get pissed. I don't want those people on my team either. If I try to help you in your role, and you half-ass it, that makes me look bad, and we all suffer. I wish I was psychotic about it like Jordan. I bust my ass, but he's on another level few of us can get to. We have similar mindsets and approaches.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 21, 2020 9:37:36 GMT -5
Grant has a point. As much as most of the doc is great, there is some of it that is just Mike having a hunch and it being presented as a fact of the story. The situation with Horace is one of those, and if he didn't do it, he has every right to be pissed while Mike opens this long-awaited doc with the hotel coke party story. I love Mike, but this is the peak of "When Mike does it, we look past it because it's Mike." Krause is to blame for them not having a chance to defend the crown in 99. But also, it's insane that it's his call. In any other sport in recent times when a transcendent player, their other HOF player,and a HOF coach all have an issue with the GM, the GM is gone. It's that simple. He doesn't oust the other 3. If Belichick and Brady had a problem with someone in the front office in NE in the 2000s, who in their right mind would side with the least talented part of that equation? Reinsdorf waited too long to pitch one more year. Scottie demanded a trade in 97, Krause annonuced that this would be Phil's last season in 97, MJ wouldn't play for anyone but Phil. Reinsdorf let Krause paint them into a corner and half-assed a reconciliation to a situation that had become untenable to everyone, believing that Krause had the talent to produce another contending team over one more deep playoff run in 99. He did not produce another playoff win. Someone mentioned Krause didn't get enough for Pippen and Kerr. They were S&T trades. They don't normally return a lot because you don't really have any leverage. You can't balk because the player just signs there for less money and you get nothing. LeBron in 2009 is probably one of the highest value players in history and his S&T deal hardly returns a ton for Cleveland. That's just the nature of those deals. The rebuild is lost on Krause's fickleness and enthusiasm to undo his own good moves. He drafted twice in the top 15 picks in 99 after fielding a laughable team. Both of them, along with Brad Miller signed in 2000, would become All Stars. But that came after all three left Chicago before the end of the 2002 season. That trio of Miller, Brand, and Artest is a great frontcourt for that time in the East. Good balance of scoring, defense, and ball handling. And Miller was only 24, Artest and Brand were 21 on rookie deals. There's no real reason why they couldn't have stayed together for 7-8 years, instead of one season. He straight up built a good young core and yeeted into the trash like a Big Mac wrapper. It's like the inverse of that internet story of a guy trading a paper clip into a house. Krause had the greatest dynasty in basketball the last 50 years and he bet on himself and dealt and dealt until the end result was....the 2003/04 Bulls going 23-59 with their weakness being, you guessed it, the frontcourt. That season, John Paxson takes over and ends up drafting Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, and Derrick Rose. Krause wanted to prove that he was a better GM than Jordan was a player, or Phil was a coach. He turned out proving that he wasn't even the best GM of the Bulls in the 2000s and there were basically only 2. I agree Grant has the right to say he wasn't Smith's source, but he already did it in the doc. Jordan also isn't the only one to believe it, Will Perdue said the same thing and he's the player who called Jordan an asshole and jerk so he's no MJ cheerleader. BJ Armstrong took a middle of the road, that it wouldn't just be one player. I believe Krause was one the teams looking to sign Tracy McGrady and/or Grant Hill at the time. I was thinking that the lineup of Miller, Brand and Artest with a veteran guard or forward would be a pretty good team in that era or at least better than most of the east teams. It would be a tough sell when the Bulls have 13 and 17 wins the year prior. And how many times have the Bulls signed the superstar free agent in the offseason? Not that often, most recent success came from who they drafted and traded for. If you are tanking, you better be in it for the long haul because top free agents aren't just going to wait for the team to catch up.
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Post by sfvega on May 21, 2020 10:02:28 GMT -5
Grant has a point. As much as most of the doc is great, there is some of it that is just Mike having a hunch and it being presented as a fact of the story. The situation with Horace is one of those, and if he didn't do it, he has every right to be pissed while Mike opens this long-awaited doc with the hotel coke party story. I love Mike, but this is the peak of "When Mike does it, we look past it because it's Mike." Krause is to blame for them not having a chance to defend the crown in 99. But also, it's insane that it's his call. In any other sport in recent times when a transcendent player, their other HOF player,and a HOF coach all have an issue with the GM, the GM is gone. It's that simple. He doesn't oust the other 3. If Belichick and Brady had a problem with someone in the front office in NE in the 2000s, who in their right mind would side with the least talented part of that equation? Reinsdorf waited too long to pitch one more year. Scottie demanded a trade in 97, Krause annonuced that this would be Phil's last season in 97, MJ wouldn't play for anyone but Phil. Reinsdorf let Krause paint them into a corner and half-assed a reconciliation to a situation that had become untenable to everyone, believing that Krause had the talent to produce another contending team over one more deep playoff run in 99. He did not produce another playoff win. Someone mentioned Krause didn't get enough for Pippen and Kerr. They were S&T trades. They don't normally return a lot because you don't really have any leverage. You can't balk because the player just signs there for less money and you get nothing. LeBron in 2009 is probably one of the highest value players in history and his S&T deal hardly returns a ton for Cleveland. That's just the nature of those deals. The rebuild is lost on Krause's fickleness and enthusiasm to undo his own good moves. He drafted twice in the top 15 picks in 99 after fielding a laughable team. Both of them, along with Brad Miller signed in 2000, would become All Stars. But that came after all three left Chicago before the end of the 2002 season. That trio of Miller, Brand, and Artest is a great frontcourt for that time in the East. Good balance of scoring, defense, and ball handling. And Miller was only 24, Artest and Brand were 21 on rookie deals. There's no real reason why they couldn't have stayed together for 7-8 years, instead of one season. He straight up built a good young core and yeeted into the trash like a Big Mac wrapper. It's like the inverse of that internet story of a guy trading a paper clip into a house. Krause had the greatest dynasty in basketball the last 50 years and he bet on himself and dealt and dealt until the end result was....the 2003/04 Bulls going 23-59 with their weakness being, you guessed it, the frontcourt. That season, John Paxson takes over and ends up drafting Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, and Derrick Rose. Krause wanted to prove that he was a better GM than Jordan was a player, or Phil was a coach. He turned out proving that he wasn't even the best GM of the Bulls in the 2000s and there were basically only 2. I agree Grant has the right to say he wasn't Smith's source, but he already did it in the doc. Jordan also isn't the only one to believe it, Will Perdue said the same thing and he's the player who called Jordan an asshole and jerk so he's no MJ cheerleader. BJ Armstrong took a middle of the road, that it wouldn't just be one player. I believe Krause was one the teams looking to sign Tracy McGrady and/or Grant Hill at the time. I was thinking that the lineup of Miller, Brand and Artest with a veteran guard or forward would be a pretty good team in that era or at least better than most of the east teams. It would be a tough sell when the Bulls have 13 and 17 wins the year prior. And how many times have the Bulls signed the superstar free agent in the offseason? Not that often, most recent success came from who they drafted and traded for. If you are tanking, you better be in it for the long haul because top free agents aren't just going to wait for the team to catch up. Whether Grant was or not, Mike can't be out here complaining about guys blabbing about the inner working of the team while leading his documentary with a story about a coke party everyone on the team but Mike was having. They would have (and did) have a hard time selling McGrady or Hill on Chicago because they had done so much to become a cellar dweller. If McGrady had went there and I think they had Crawford at the time, they'd be pretty set.
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Post by sfvega on May 21, 2020 21:32:53 GMT -5
Grant has a point. As much as most of the doc is great, there is some of it that is just Mike having a hunch and it being presented as a fact of the story. The situation with Horace is one of those, and if he didn't do it, he has every right to be pissed while Mike opens this long-awaited doc with the hotel coke party story. I love Mike, but this is the peak of "When Mike does it, we look past it because it's Mike." Krause is to blame for them not having a chance to defend the crown in 99. But also, it's insane that it's his call. In any other sport in recent times when a transcendent player, their other HOF player,and a HOF coach all have an issue with the GM, the GM is gone. It's that simple. He doesn't oust the other 3. If Belichick and Brady had a problem with someone in the front office in NE in the 2000s, who in their right mind would side with the least talented part of that equation? Reinsdorf waited too long to pitch one more year. Scottie demanded a trade in 97, Krause annonuced that this would be Phil's last season in 97, MJ wouldn't play for anyone but Phil. Reinsdorf let Krause paint them into a corner and half-assed a reconciliation to a situation that had become untenable to everyone, believing that Krause had the talent to produce another contending team over one more deep playoff run in 99. He did not produce another playoff win. Someone mentioned Krause didn't get enough for Pippen and Kerr. They were S&T trades. They don't normally return a lot because you don't really have any leverage. You can't balk because the player just signs there for less money and you get nothing. LeBron in 2009 is probably one of the highest value players in history and his S&T deal hardly returns a ton for Cleveland. That's just the nature of those deals. The rebuild is lost on Krause's fickleness and enthusiasm to undo his own good moves. He drafted twice in the top 15 picks in 99 after fielding a laughable team. Both of them, along with Brad Miller signed in 2000, would become All Stars. But that came after all three left Chicago before the end of the 2002 season. That trio of Miller, Brand, and Artest is a great frontcourt for that time in the East. Good balance of scoring, defense, and ball handling. And Miller was only 24, Artest and Brand were 21 on rookie deals. There's no real reason why they couldn't have stayed together for 7-8 years, instead of one season. He straight up built a good young core and yeeted into the trash like a Big Mac wrapper. It's like the inverse of that internet story of a guy trading a paper clip into a house. Krause had the greatest dynasty in basketball the last 50 years and he bet on himself and dealt and dealt until the end result was....the 2003/04 Bulls going 23-59 with their weakness being, you guessed it, the frontcourt. That season, John Paxson takes over and ends up drafting Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, and Derrick Rose. Krause wanted to prove that he was a better GM than Jordan was a player, or Phil was a coach. He turned out proving that he wasn't even the best GM of the Bulls in the 2000s and there were basically only 2. Reinsdorf is as much to blame for the bulls not going for a repeat title as much as Krause. As stated it isn't uncommon for star players and star GMs to get the benefit because you build your team around them. Magic was running the Lakers when he was a player so it wasn't uncommon for the star player to have the power. You should fired your GM or told him to shut the f*** up. When you rebuild you're talking about contending for a title in maybe within 5 seasons. It is jus backwards to toss away championship years as you're contending now knowing you damn well won't get another Michael Jordan Fickle is the right word. In the end, Krause did get his rebuilding effort and threw it away anyway. He had the best of both worlds. The team went from greatness to what can be seen as a quick rebuilding effort because unlike today teams they didn't kill future assets for the now. Magic ran the show as soon at they won a title and he was the star in the NBA. Jordan was the biggest star in ANY sport or maybe any profession period, and had won 4/5 titles and Krause tried to fire the coach and trade his Robin in back-to-back off-seasons. Krause is weird, because he could mostly evaluate talent. Scottie was an all-time steal, Kukoc turned out well, Artest was a steal, he did have a number of good signings as well. He just overplays his hand, constantly looking for the next big thing. Krause is the type of guy who would find Tom Brady in the 6th round but trade him in 2007.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 21, 2020 22:53:20 GMT -5
I think it took Magic and Bird until about 1981-82 to truly become The Man in L.A. and Boston respectively. Magic's first two years it was still kinda Kareem's team and believe it or not Cedric Maxwell was the MVP of the Finals for the Celtics in 1981.
As far as Krause goes, I'll reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: If you are willing to alienate the greatest player and coach ever, who is going to sign with you? Even now I don't remember many big free agent signings the Bulls have had.
I have to admit I don't really care much about this Horace Grant thing. Whether he was the source of Sam Smith's book or not really doesn't mean a ton. I did hear Pippen is livid with how he was portrayed but if you think about it he did that to himself. He's the one who said he put off his surgery so it wouldn't "F*** up his summer." He's the one who said if he had it to do over again he still would sit out that last play against the Knicks. He was the one ranting and cussing out his GM on the bus, a story backed up by several players and Jackson (though he did kinda apologize in the last episode).
It's pretty surreal to hear Skip Bayless now blaming the breakup on Phil Jackson. First off, I don't really buy that Jackson already had a deal set with the Lakers since Del Harris was pretty firmly established there until the team got off to a crap start in the shortened 1999 season and they had Rambis coach on an interim basis. If Jackson was on board why not just hire him then? And what does this have to do with Jordan? MJ was a grown man. He didn't need Phil Jackson to hold his hand through life. If he wanted to play I can assure you there would be 28 other teams that would have been interested. What was Phil supposed to do, come back and coach another year for a GM who flat out told him he didn't want him back even if he went 82-0? And probably try to rebuild around an aging Jordan? Jackson played this perfectly, getting out and taking the next year off, then landing in the best possible situation he could have imagined with the Lakers. He even brought some guys with him like Harper and Grant.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 22, 2020 0:06:51 GMT -5
Reinsdorf is as much to blame for the bulls not going for a repeat title as much as Krause. As stated it isn't uncommon for star players and star GMs to get the benefit because you build your team around them. Magic was running the Lakers when he was a player so it wasn't uncommon for the star player to have the power. You should fired your GM or told him to shut the f*** up. When you rebuild you're talking about contending for a title in maybe within 5 seasons. It is jus backwards to toss away championship years as you're contending now knowing you damn well won't get another Michael Jordan Fickle is the right word. In the end, Krause did get his rebuilding effort and threw it away anyway. He had the best of both worlds. The team went from greatness to what can be seen as a quick rebuilding effort because unlike today teams they didn't kill future assets for the now. Magic ran the show as soon at they won a title and he was the star in the NBA. Jordan was the biggest star in ANY sport or maybe any profession period, and had won 4/5 titles and Krause tried to fire the coach and trade his Robin in back-to-back off-seasons. Krause is weird, because he could mostly evaluate talent. Scottie was an all-time steal, Kukoc turned out well, Artest was a steal, he did have a number of good signings as well. He just overplays his hand, constantly looking for the next big thing. Krause is the type of guy who would find Tom Brady in the 6th round but trade him in 2007. Krause is a gambler and when it works out, you hit homeruns and when it doesn't you look like a fool. He's one of those people trying to think 5 steps ahead instead of having a good quality of a GM in being able to evaluate on the fly and make adjustments. He's a guy who needed his power reigned in and they didn't do that
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 22, 2020 0:14:24 GMT -5
I have to admit I don't really care much about this Horace Grant thing. Whether he was the source of Sam Smith's book or not really doesn't mean a ton. I did hear Pippen is livid with how he was portrayed but if you think about it he did that to himself. He's the one who said he put off his surgery so it wouldn't "F*** up his summer." He's the one who said if he had it to do over again he still would sit out that last play against the Knicks. He was the one ranting and cussing out his GM on the bus, a story backed up by several players and Jackson (though he did kinda apologize in the last episode). It's pretty surreal to hear Skip Bayless now blaming the breakup on Phil Jackson. First off, I don't really buy that Jackson already had a deal set with the Lakers since Del Harris was pretty firmly established there until the team got off to a crap start in the shortened 1999 season and they had Rambis coach on an interim basis. If Jackson was on board why not just hire him then? And what does this have to do with Jordan? MJ was a grown man. He didn't need Phil Jackson to hold his hand through life. If he wanted to play I can assure you there would be 28 other teams that would have been interested. What was Phil supposed to do, come back and coach another year for a GM who flat out told him he didn't want him back even if he went 82-0? And probably try to rebuild around an aging Jordan? Jackson played this perfectly, getting out and taking the next year off, then landing in the best possible situation he could have imagined with the Lakers. He even brought some guys with him like Harper and Grant. Pippen made himself look bad. In fact, Jordan never said anything really bad about Pippen except saying he was selfish. First episode he said straight up you can't say Michael Jordan without Scottie Pippen. Pippen arrogance gets the best of him. He had every right to be mad about the contract but he did some shit he can't take back Jackson didn't have a deal set with Lakers. Shaq has commented that he asked for them to bring in Phil. Take that for what you will but there was no doubt intrigue between all parties
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 0:19:57 GMT -5
Magic ran the show as soon at they won a title and he was the star in the NBA. Jordan was the biggest star in ANY sport or maybe any profession period, and had won 4/5 titles and Krause tried to fire the coach and trade his Robin in back-to-back off-seasons. Krause is weird, because he could mostly evaluate talent. Scottie was an all-time steal, Kukoc turned out well, Artest was a steal, he did have a number of good signings as well. He just overplays his hand, constantly looking for the next big thing. Krause is the type of guy who would find Tom Brady in the 6th round but trade him in 2007. Krause is a gambler and when it works out, you hit homeruns and when it doesn't you look like a fool. He's one of those people trying to think 5 steps ahead instead of having a good quality of a GM in being able to evaluate on the fly and make adjustments. He's a guy who needed his power reigned in and they didn't do that He's like the Vince Russo of basketball. If you can harness his good ideas, you get 97 WWF (96-98 Bulls). If you don't, you get WCW 2000 (or 99-02 Bulls). Wanting to fire Phil in 96 or trade Pippen in 97 is insanity. McGrady was an amazing talent, but he never even won a playoff series in his career and likely would have left in FA like he did to Toronto. He was in the middle of an all-time great dynasty. The best Bulls team in that run, arguably the best basketball team of the last 50+ years. Maybe ever. And in the middle of a 3-peat, you try to switch coaches after chip 1 and star players after chip 2. Michael and Reinsdorf saved part of his legacy, begrudgingly.
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 0:31:30 GMT -5
I have to admit I don't really care much about this Horace Grant thing. Whether he was the source of Sam Smith's book or not really doesn't mean a ton. I did hear Pippen is livid with how he was portrayed but if you think about it he did that to himself. He's the one who said he put off his surgery so it wouldn't "F*** up his summer." He's the one who said if he had it to do over again he still would sit out that last play against the Knicks. He was the one ranting and cussing out his GM on the bus, a story backed up by several players and Jackson (though he did kinda apologize in the last episode). It's pretty surreal to hear Skip Bayless now blaming the breakup on Phil Jackson. First off, I don't really buy that Jackson already had a deal set with the Lakers since Del Harris was pretty firmly established there until the team got off to a crap start in the shortened 1999 season and they had Rambis coach on an interim basis. If Jackson was on board why not just hire him then? And what does this have to do with Jordan? MJ was a grown man. He didn't need Phil Jackson to hold his hand through life. If he wanted to play I can assure you there would be 28 other teams that would have been interested. What was Phil supposed to do, come back and coach another year for a GM who flat out told him he didn't want him back even if he went 82-0? And probably try to rebuild around an aging Jordan? Jackson played this perfectly, getting out and taking the next year off, then landing in the best possible situation he could have imagined with the Lakers. He even brought some guys with him like Harper and Grant. Pippen made himself look bad. In fact, Jordan never said anything really bad about Pippen except saying he was selfish. First episode he said straight up you can't say Michael Jordan without Scottie Pippen. Pippen arrogance gets the best of him. He had every right to be mad about the contract but he did some shit he can't take back Jackson didn't have a deal set with Lakers. Shaq has commented that he asked for them to bring in Phil. Take that for what you will but there was no doubt intrigue between all parties The more I see of Scottie, the less I like. He wanted to be the star with the Bulls when Mike was gone. Absolutely put up good years. But just lacked everything to be THE guy on a top team. Couldn't take the bull (no pun intended) by the horns, pouted while and after Kukoc hit the game winner and still says he'd do it the same, signed a contract that he was advised against and immediately regretted it. And the migraine game. And I've gotten migraines my whole life, they are debilitating. But it's weird to never have one until the biggest game of your life. Also, he asked if the lights were dim that day. If you had a migraine, you have sensitivity to light. You wouldn't be complaining the lights were too dim. It doesn't add up. I grew up in Illinois, idolizing the Bulls. But Scottie comes off bad in this. Not just because Mike is exec producer, but by the shit he himself said.
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