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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 22, 2020 0:46:43 GMT -5
Pippen made himself look bad. In fact, Jordan never said anything really bad about Pippen except saying he was selfish. First episode he said straight up you can't say Michael Jordan without Scottie Pippen. Pippen arrogance gets the best of him. He had every right to be mad about the contract but he did some shit he can't take back Jackson didn't have a deal set with Lakers. Shaq has commented that he asked for them to bring in Phil. Take that for what you will but there was no doubt intrigue between all parties The more I see of Scottie, the less I like. He wanted to be the star with the Bulls when Mike was gone. Absolutely put up good years. But just lacked everything to be THE guy on a top team. Couldn't take the bull (no pun intended) by the horns, pouted while and after Kukoc hit the game winner and still says he'd do it the same, signed a contract that he was advised against and immediately regretted it. And the migraine game. And I've gotten migraines my whole life, they are debilitating. But it's weird to never have one until the biggest game of your life. Also, he asked if the lights were dim that day. If you had a migraine, you have sensitivity to light. You wouldn't be complaining the lights were too dim. It doesn't add up. I grew up in Illinois, idolizing the Bulls. But Scottie comes off bad in this. Not just because Mike is exec producer, but by the shit he himself said. I’ve always felt this way about Scottie. His arrogance is up there with Jordan except he isn’t Jordan. No doubt one of the greatest players of all time but you aren’t THE GUY I put my championship basket in. You have to have a complimentary player with you like all good players but that money issue really had Him in his bag. Jordan had to learn to trust his teammates and that was a process but you don’t get so mad you say f*** the team because you don’t like the play. That’s stupid. That’s not leadership. For years I’ve always joked about Scottie got his ass whooped so bad the Pistons made him quit with that migraine issue. Scottie quit, I don’t care what he says. When it comes down to it, he just doesn’t have that intangible Mike had in I’m going to do everything possible to win. It is why his Rockets stint was so bad for one year. He thought he was going to be Jordan on that team. Mike basically did everything in his power to not criticize Scottie. Scottie did it to himself and saying shit you’ll do it again is not going to endear you to people. He had every tool to be one of the greatest and is one of the greatest but his mentality is what f***s him over.
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 1:17:34 GMT -5
The more I see of Scottie, the less I like. He wanted to be the star with the Bulls when Mike was gone. Absolutely put up good years. But just lacked everything to be THE guy on a top team. Couldn't take the bull (no pun intended) by the horns, pouted while and after Kukoc hit the game winner and still says he'd do it the same, signed a contract that he was advised against and immediately regretted it. And the migraine game. And I've gotten migraines my whole life, they are debilitating. But it's weird to never have one until the biggest game of your life. Also, he asked if the lights were dim that day. If you had a migraine, you have sensitivity to light. You wouldn't be complaining the lights were too dim. It doesn't add up. I grew up in Illinois, idolizing the Bulls. But Scottie comes off bad in this. Not just because Mike is exec producer, but by the shit he himself said. I’ve always felt this way about Scottie. His arrogance is up there with Jordan except he isn’t Jordan. No doubt one of the greatest players of all time but you aren’t THE GUY I put my championship basket in. You have to have a complimentary player with you like all good players but that money issue really had Him in his bag. Jordan had to learn to trust his teammates and that was a process but you don’t get so mad you say f*** the team because you don’t like the play. That’s stupid. That’s not leadership. For years I’ve always joked about Scottie got his ass whooped so bad the Pistons made him quit with that migraine issue. Scottie quit, I don’t care what he says. When it comes down to it, he just doesn’t have that intangible Mike had in I’m going to do everything possible to win. It is why his Rockets stint was so bad for one year. He thought he was going to be Jordan on that team. Mike basically did everything in his power to not criticize Scottie. Scottie did it to himself and saying shit you’ll do it again is not going to endear you to people. He had every tool to be one of the greatest and is one of the greatest but his mentality is what f***s him over. Exactly. Scottie was very underrated and proved when Mike was gone that he wasn't simply a beneficiary of Mike and could be a top 20 player by himself. But there's where the public put him with Mike in the 90's and there's where Scottie puts himself, and both are wrong. Scottie thought "Well, Mike's gone. I'm the Mike now." Dude, no. Dial it back several notches. Realize Kenny Smith and Clyde and Horry hit big shots, not just Hakeem. And Stockton finished them, not Malone. Don't take your ball and go home just because they didn't ONLY run big plays through you. He's out acting like he's Mike or Reggie that was a distant 3rd to his game behind defense and passing. He was never an elite scorer. He shot 32% from 3 and 66% from the line in 94. He was not a can't miss shooter/scorer. Kukoc wasn't either. That's why neither was a slam dunk to begin with. And never heard about Pippen having migraines before or since. Terrell Davis is the opposite, and nobody questions him. Scottie just....I don't want to say he made it up, but I don't really buy it either.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 22, 2020 1:21:31 GMT -5
The more I see of Scottie, the less I like. He wanted to be the star with the Bulls when Mike was gone. Absolutely put up good years. But just lacked everything to be THE guy on a top team. Couldn't take the bull (no pun intended) by the horns, pouted while and after Kukoc hit the game winner and still says he'd do it the same, signed a contract that he was advised against and immediately regretted it. And the migraine game. And I've gotten migraines my whole life, they are debilitating. But it's weird to never have one until the biggest game of your life. Also, he asked if the lights were dim that day. If you had a migraine, you have sensitivity to light. You wouldn't be complaining the lights were too dim. It doesn't add up. I grew up in Illinois, idolizing the Bulls. But Scottie comes off bad in this. Not just because Mike is exec producer, but by the shit he himself said. I’ve always felt this way about Scottie. His arrogance is up there with Jordan except he isn’t Jordan. No doubt one of the greatest players of all time but you aren’t THE GUY I put my championship basket in. You have to have a complimentary player with you like all good players but that money issue really had Him in his bag. Jordan had to learn to trust his teammates and that was a process but you don’t get so mad you say f*** the team because you don’t like the play. That’s stupid. That’s not leadership. For years I’ve always joked about Scottie got his ass whooped so bad the Pistons made him quit with that migraine issue. Scottie quit, I don’t care what he says. When it comes down to it, he just doesn’t have that intangible Mike had in I’m going to do everything possible to win. It is why his Rockets stint was so bad for one year. He thought he was going to be Jordan on that team. Mike basically did everything in his power to not criticize Scottie. Scottie did it to himself and saying shit you’ll do it again is not going to endear you to people. He had every tool to be one of the greatest and is one of the greatest but his mentality is what f***s him over. Didnt Scottie also retire midseason when he returned to the Bulls because after he got injured they wouldnt guarantee him a starting spot? It is kind of jarring to see the episode where everybody was praising how Scottie treated them when MJ was gone but then when he refused to go in it was like that was the moment those players realized how much they needed MJ. For as much of a bully as MJ was you can tell that several of the players in the documentary appreciate everything in hindsight. Really the only 2 in the documentary who seem to harbor a lot of ill will towards Michael are Horace Grant and MAYBE BJ Armstrong (who at least seemed to have harsh words). Scottie may be furious but as mentioned MJ was the nicest person about Scottie in the documentary. I also liked Colin Cowherd laughing at journalists trying to analyze MJ and say the documentary shows he isnt happy even with the success. I don't think during the show I ever saw an unhappy MJ. Maybe he regretted how tough he was on teammates to where people thought he was a bad guy, but from all accounts MJ has a great relationship with his mom and kids, and his current wife.
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 1:34:25 GMT -5
I’ve always felt this way about Scottie. His arrogance is up there with Jordan except he isn’t Jordan. No doubt one of the greatest players of all time but you aren’t THE GUY I put my championship basket in. You have to have a complimentary player with you like all good players but that money issue really had Him in his bag. Jordan had to learn to trust his teammates and that was a process but you don’t get so mad you say f*** the team because you don’t like the play. That’s stupid. That’s not leadership. For years I’ve always joked about Scottie got his ass whooped so bad the Pistons made him quit with that migraine issue. Scottie quit, I don’t care what he says. When it comes down to it, he just doesn’t have that intangible Mike had in I’m going to do everything possible to win. It is why his Rockets stint was so bad for one year. He thought he was going to be Jordan on that team. Mike basically did everything in his power to not criticize Scottie. Scottie did it to himself and saying shit you’ll do it again is not going to endear you to people. He had every tool to be one of the greatest and is one of the greatest but his mentality is what f***s him over. Didnt Scottie also retire midseason when he returned to the Bulls because after he got injured they wouldnt guarantee him a starting spot? It is kind of jarring to see the episode where everybody was praising how Scottie treated them when MJ was gone but then when he refused to go in it was like that was the moment those players realized how much they needed MJ. For as much of a bully as MJ was you can tell that several of the players in the documentary appreciate everything in hindsight. Really the only 2 in the documentary who seem to harbor a lot of ill will towards Michael are Horace Grant and MAYBE BJ Armstrong (who at least seemed to have harsh words). Scottie may be furious but as mentioned MJ was the nicest person about Scottie in the documentary. I also liked Colin Cowherd laughing at journalists trying to analyze MJ and say the documentary shows he isnt happy even with the success. I don't think during the show I ever saw an unhappy MJ. Maybe he regretted how tough he was on teammates to where people thought he was a bad guy, but from all accounts MJ has a great relationship with his mom and kids, and his current wife. I don't know where people get the idea that he wasn't happy. He seemed very happy every time they showed him at practice making fun of Krause or some of his teammates, in the locker room, on the bus or the planes, with his security guards. The only thing that seemed to bring him down was the weight of superstardom and everyone wanting a piece of you, but if he says no then it's a hit to his reputation. So people felt entitled to a piece of him, but he can't say no. He can't go out in public. He can't let himself and the team down. You could see the more time he spent in basketball, the more tired he got. Which is probably why he retired 3 times. But there's a difference between burnt out and unhappy. Michael was absolutely burnt out.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 22, 2020 1:40:46 GMT -5
I’ve always felt this way about Scottie. His arrogance is up there with Jordan except he isn’t Jordan. No doubt one of the greatest players of all time but you aren’t THE GUY I put my championship basket in. You have to have a complimentary player with you like all good players but that money issue really had Him in his bag. Jordan had to learn to trust his teammates and that was a process but you don’t get so mad you say f*** the team because you don’t like the play. That’s stupid. That’s not leadership. For years I’ve always joked about Scottie got his ass whooped so bad the Pistons made him quit with that migraine issue. Scottie quit, I don’t care what he says. When it comes down to it, he just doesn’t have that intangible Mike had in I’m going to do everything possible to win. It is why his Rockets stint was so bad for one year. He thought he was going to be Jordan on that team. Mike basically did everything in his power to not criticize Scottie. Scottie did it to himself and saying shit you’ll do it again is not going to endear you to people. He had every tool to be one of the greatest and is one of the greatest but his mentality is what f***s him over. Exactly. Scottie was very underrated and proved when Mike was gone that he wasn't simply a beneficiary of Mike and could be a top 20 player by himself. But there's where the public put him with Mike in the 90's and there's where Scottie puts himself, and both are wrong. Scottie thought "Well, Mike's gone. I'm the Mike now." Dude, no. Dial it back several notches. Realize Kenny Smith and Clyde and Horry hit big shots, not just Hakeem. And Stockton finished them, not Malone. Don't take your ball and go home just because they didn't ONLY run big plays through you. He's out acting like he's Mike or Reggie that was a distant 3rd to his game behind defense and passing. He was never an elite scorer. He shot 32% from 3 and 66% from the line in 94. He was not a can't miss shooter/scorer. Kukoc wasn't either. That's why neither was a slam dunk to begin with. And never heard about Pippen having migraines before or since. Terrell Davis is the opposite, and nobody questions him. Scottie just....I don't want to say he made it up, but I don't really buy it either. Correct. When Jordan left, Scottie saw that he can be Jordan and be the guy who get the plays drawn up and score 30 points a game when that wasn't the case the case at all. Scottie wanted the glory. He didn't try to establish anyone else as his second option like Jordan did with him. For as much of an ass Jordan was, it was his desire to win to make him borderline psychotic and a headache to deal with but there was a greater good in there. For Pippen, it was all about his brand and they still had a good team around to be decent but him acting out like he is Jordan got him in trouble Pippen has never been a big picture guy and that extends to real life with stupid shit like buying a Jet
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 22, 2020 1:48:36 GMT -5
I’ve always felt this way about Scottie. His arrogance is up there with Jordan except he isn’t Jordan. No doubt one of the greatest players of all time but you aren’t THE GUY I put my championship basket in. You have to have a complimentary player with you like all good players but that money issue really had Him in his bag. Jordan had to learn to trust his teammates and that was a process but you don’t get so mad you say f*** the team because you don’t like the play. That’s stupid. That’s not leadership. For years I’ve always joked about Scottie got his ass whooped so bad the Pistons made him quit with that migraine issue. Scottie quit, I don’t care what he says. When it comes down to it, he just doesn’t have that intangible Mike had in I’m going to do everything possible to win. It is why his Rockets stint was so bad for one year. He thought he was going to be Jordan on that team. Mike basically did everything in his power to not criticize Scottie. Scottie did it to himself and saying shit you’ll do it again is not going to endear you to people. He had every tool to be one of the greatest and is one of the greatest but his mentality is what f***s him over. Didnt Scottie also retire midseason when he returned to the Bulls because after he got injured they wouldnt guarantee him a starting spot? It is kind of jarring to see the episode where everybody was praising how Scottie treated them when MJ was gone but then when he refused to go in it was like that was the moment those players realized how much they needed MJ. For as much of a bully as MJ was you can tell that several of the players in the documentary appreciate everything in hindsight. Really the only 2 in the documentary who seem to harbor a lot of ill will towards Michael are Horace Grant and MAYBE BJ Armstrong (who at least seemed to have harsh words). Scottie may be furious but as mentioned MJ was the nicest person about Scottie in the documentary. I also liked Colin Cowherd laughing at journalists trying to analyze MJ and say the documentary shows he isnt happy even with the success. I don't think during the show I ever saw an unhappy MJ. Maybe he regretted how tough he was on teammates to where people thought he was a bad guy, but from all accounts MJ has a great relationship with his mom and kids, and his current wife. That I don't remember on Scottie faking retirement. The only thing I remember which was stated in the Documentary was him throwing a fit in saying he wanted to be traded and holding out due to his contract In regards to MJ being unhappy, I wouldn't say he was unhappy but more so fatigued. Mental fatigue from just his desire to win, his pops dying, and never getting a break because of who he is. Mike knows he was an ass but it got results. It is just in his nature to take shit personal and every year it was win by any means necessary.
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 2:07:19 GMT -5
Exactly. Scottie was very underrated and proved when Mike was gone that he wasn't simply a beneficiary of Mike and could be a top 20 player by himself. But there's where the public put him with Mike in the 90's and there's where Scottie puts himself, and both are wrong. Scottie thought "Well, Mike's gone. I'm the Mike now." Dude, no. Dial it back several notches. Realize Kenny Smith and Clyde and Horry hit big shots, not just Hakeem. And Stockton finished them, not Malone. Don't take your ball and go home just because they didn't ONLY run big plays through you. He's out acting like he's Mike or Reggie that was a distant 3rd to his game behind defense and passing. He was never an elite scorer. He shot 32% from 3 and 66% from the line in 94. He was not a can't miss shooter/scorer. Kukoc wasn't either. That's why neither was a slam dunk to begin with. And never heard about Pippen having migraines before or since. Terrell Davis is the opposite, and nobody questions him. Scottie just....I don't want to say he made it up, but I don't really buy it either. Correct. When Jordan left, Scottie saw that he can be Jordan and be the guy who get the plays drawn up and score 30 points a game when that wasn't the case the case at all. Scottie wanted the glory. He didn't try to establish anyone else as his second option like Jordan did with him. For as much of an ass Jordan was, it was his desire to win to make him borderline psychotic and a headache to deal with but there was a greater good in there. For Pippen, it was all about his brand and they still had a good team around to be decent but him acting out like he is Jordan got him in trouble Pippen has never been a big picture guy and that extends to real life with stupid shit like buying a Jet I bet they wish they could have Freaky Friday'ed. Scottie always wanted to be Jordan, and Jordan wanted to go back to a time when he wouldn't cause a traffic jam just by leaving the house. Come to think of it, Jordan had to LOVE having Dennis as a teammate. When he skipped practice and went to wrestle, that was probably the first time in many years that nobody in the media asked the rest of the team questions about Jordan or asked Jordan only questions about his teammate. Mike probably loooved having Dennis around, even before you take into account Dennis' affinity for booze and cigars.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 22, 2020 3:22:05 GMT -5
Correct. When Jordan left, Scottie saw that he can be Jordan and be the guy who get the plays drawn up and score 30 points a game when that wasn't the case the case at all. Scottie wanted the glory. He didn't try to establish anyone else as his second option like Jordan did with him. For as much of an ass Jordan was, it was his desire to win to make him borderline psychotic and a headache to deal with but there was a greater good in there. For Pippen, it was all about his brand and they still had a good team around to be decent but him acting out like he is Jordan got him in trouble Pippen has never been a big picture guy and that extends to real life with stupid shit like buying a Jet I bet they wish they could have Freaky Friday'ed. Scottie always wanted to be Jordan, and Jordan wanted to go back to a time when he wouldn't cause a traffic jam just by leaving the house. Come to think of it, Jordan had to LOVE having Dennis as a teammate. When he skipped practice and went to wrestle, that was probably the first time in many years that nobody in the media asked the rest of the team questions about Jordan or asked Jordan only questions about his teammate. Mike probably loooved having Dennis around, even before you take into account Dennis' affinity for booze and cigars. Jordan loved Dennis. He knew at the end of the day Dennis will have his antics but when it is important time, Dennis will handle his shit. You see how much he leaned on Dennis when Pippen was out and never had to worry about him knowing where the right play is. Dennis basketball IQ is highly underrated, it is covered under all his crazy antics On the party side? Of course. There is going to be shit Dennis and Jordan got into that we will never know about. I laughed when Jordan said he flew to Vegas to get Dennis, because we all know damn well he most likely flew out there hours before and did what he wanted before he actually found Dennis.
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 5:18:35 GMT -5
I bet they wish they could have Freaky Friday'ed. Scottie always wanted to be Jordan, and Jordan wanted to go back to a time when he wouldn't cause a traffic jam just by leaving the house. Come to think of it, Jordan had to LOVE having Dennis as a teammate. When he skipped practice and went to wrestle, that was probably the first time in many years that nobody in the media asked the rest of the team questions about Jordan or asked Jordan only questions about his teammate. Mike probably loooved having Dennis around, even before you take into account Dennis' affinity for booze and cigars. Jordan loved Dennis. He knew at the end of the day Dennis will have his antics but when it is important time, Dennis will handle his shit. You see how much he leaned on Dennis when Pippen was out and never had to worry about him knowing where the right play is. Dennis basketball IQ is highly underrated, it is covered under all his crazy antics On the party side? Of course. There is going to be shit Dennis and Jordan got into that we will never know about. I laughed when Jordan said he flew to Vegas to get Dennis, because we all know damn well he most likely flew out there hours before and did what he wanted before he actually found Dennis. Lol. Jordan: Phil, I'll go out there and get Dennis and we'll fly back at 7. Jordan *at the blackjack table at 6:50*: Oh shit! I gotta go get Dennis.....
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 22, 2020 5:24:43 GMT -5
Jordan loved Dennis. He knew at the end of the day Dennis will have his antics but when it is important time, Dennis will handle his shit. You see how much he leaned on Dennis when Pippen was out and never had to worry about him knowing where the right play is. Dennis basketball IQ is highly underrated, it is covered under all his crazy antics On the party side? Of course. There is going to be shit Dennis and Jordan got into that we will never know about. I laughed when Jordan said he flew to Vegas to get Dennis, because we all know damn well he most likely flew out there hours before and did what he wanted before he actually found Dennis. Lol. Jordan: Phil, I'll go out there and get Dennis and we'll fly back at 7. Jordan *at the blackjack table at 6:50*: Oh shit! I gotta go get Dennis..... *turns to run, trips over a passed out Rodman right behind him*
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Post by cabbageboy on May 22, 2020 8:32:46 GMT -5
Actually I don't think Jordan flew to Vegas at all. Rodman went to Vegas and did his thing for a while and I think was back in Chicago on a stay-cation when Jordan went to his apt. and dragged him out in front of Carmen Electra.
Glad others here agree with me on Pippen. I can't think of a single lie or misrepresentation of him presented in The Last Dance. One could argue that they cut out some of his more interesting moments ("The Mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday") or moments where he kinda got screwed (Hue Hollins call). But the stuff where he actively looked bad was when he buried himself in his own words.
Let me go back to the whole Win Shares and W/S per 48 thing. Here's Horace Grant vs. Scottie Pippen from their rookie years (1987-88) up until Horace's last year with the Bulls:
1988: Grant 4.2 (.111), Pippen 2.3 (.066) 1989: Grant 6.4 (.110), Pippen 4.0 (.080) 1990: Grant 8.0 (.140), Pippen 5.7 (.087) 1991: Grant 10.3 (.188), Pippen 11.2 (.179) 1992: Grant 14.1 (.237), Pippen 12.7 (.192) 1993: Grant 9.1 (.159), Pippen 8.6 (.132) 1994: Grant 10.0 (.188), Pippen 11.2 (.194)
That's 7 years and it was really only that last year where Pippen was supposed to be The Man that he was actually higher than Grant in Win Shares and W/S per 48 (he was slightly higher in Win Shares in 1991). A lot has been made of the fact that the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins without Jordan in 1994. Take a look at the numbers closer. The 1993 team avg. 105.2 points a game and gave up 98.9. The 1994 team avg. 98 a game and gave up 94.9. The 1993 team had a Pythagorean W/L of 58-24, while the 1994 team had was 50-32. In other words the 1994 team seriously overachieved, winning 5 more games than they actually created (Kukoc buzzer beaters perhaps?). They lost Jordan but picked up some other pieces and on paper losing Jordan should have cost them 8 wins, but Jackson managed to wring every bit out of that team to get near where they were. Pippen missed 10 games and Grant missed 12 that year, so one does wonder if they could have gotten the #1 seed in the East if both guys had played all 82.
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Post by sfvega on May 22, 2020 9:06:39 GMT -5
Actually I don't think Jordan flew to Vegas at all. Rodman went to Vegas and did his thing for a while and I think was back in Chicago on a stay-cation when Jordan went to his apt. and dragged him out in front of Carmen Electra. Glad others here agree with me on Pippen. I can't think of a single lie or misrepresentation of him presented in The Last Dance. One could argue that they cut out some of his more interesting moments ("The Mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday") or moments where he kinda got screwed (Hue Hollins call). But the stuff where he actively looked bad was when he buried himself in his own words. Let me go back to the whole Win Shares and W/S per 48 thing. Here's Horace Grant vs. Scottie Pippen from their rookie years (1987-88) up until Horace's last year with the Bulls: 1988: Grant 4.2 (.111), Pippen 2.3 (.066) 1989: Grant 6.4 (.110), Pippen 4.0 (.080) 1990: Grant 8.0 (.140), Pippen 5.7 (.087) 1991: Grant 10.3 (.188), Pippen 11.2 (.179) 1992: Grant 14.1 (.237), Pippen 12.7 (.192) 1993: Grant 9.1 (.159), Pippen 8.6 (.132) 1994: Grant 10.0 (.188), Pippen 11.2 (.194) That's 7 years and it was really only that last year where Pippen was supposed to be The Man that he was actually higher than Grant in Win Shares and W/S per 48 (he was slightly higher in Win Shares in 1991). A lot has been made of the fact that the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins without Jordan in 1994. Take a look at the numbers closer. The 1993 team avg. 105.2 points a game and gave up 98.9. The 1994 team avg. 98 a game and gave up 94.9. The 1993 team had a Pythagorean W/L of 58-24, while the 1994 team had was 50-32. In other words the 1994 team seriously overachieved, winning 5 more games than they actually created (Kukoc buzzer beaters perhaps?). They lost Jordan but picked up some other pieces and on paper losing Jordan should have cost them 8 wins, but Jackson managed to wring every bit out of that team to get near where they were. Pippen missed 10 games and Grant missed 12 that year, so one does wonder if they could have gotten the #1 seed in the East if both guys had played all 82. I like that you delved deeper than just Win Shares, which is a good stat but not all-encompassing. Horace was very effective despite his Usage being all over the place between playing with Mike, playing without Mike, to playing with Shaq, and then playing without Shaq. Vastly different roles, but seemingly excelled at all of them. He was like the Al Horford of his day. Very good defender without flashy STL/BLK #s, very good on the boards, good technical offensive player without being a top scorer.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 22, 2020 10:58:12 GMT -5
For anyone wondering about Jordan's Win Shares and W/S per 48 during that same era, just check out this insanity:
1987: 16.9 (.247) 1988: 21.2 (.308) !!! 1989: 19.8 (.292) 1990: 19.0 (.285) 1991: 20.3 (.321) !!! 1992: 17.7 (.274) 1993: 17.2 (.270)
Jordan led the league in both stats aside from 1987 where Magic had the slightly higher per 48 at .247.
Here's his return threepeat years:
1996: 20.4 (.317) !!! 1997: 18.3 (.283) 1998: 15.8 (.238)
It's interesting to see the decline in 1998. It was the first year (well, full season anyway) since MJ was injured in 1986 that he didn't lead the league in either. Malone led with 16.4 WS that year while David Robinson had a .269 per 48. Robinson's numbers there are fascinating really since the usual line of thinking is that he was never really the same after his late 1996 injury and Duncan's arrival. He also led in the per 48 category in 1999 at .261 (Duncan was slightly higher overall at 8.7 to his 8.4, they were 3rd and 4th in WS). Robinson also led in per 48 in 2001 (.246). Really the only subpar year Robinson had was his last year in 2003, but hey, he got a ring out of it.
But yeah, as far as Jordan goes the decline was starting in 1998. It's weird to say that about an MVP, but looking back I'd have flipped the 1997 and 98 MVPs. Jordan was clearly the best player on the best team in 1997 and should have been MVP, but one could argue Malone for 1998 given the Jazz ended up with the overall home court in the playoffs. Jordan seriously should have had other MVPs though. He probably could have won in 1989 and 1990, when he was pretty obviously the best player in basketball but Magic was on the better team. In 1993 he was still better than Barkley, though the Suns had more wins.
Speaking of the Suns at the time it was obvious that Barkley's addition made them a vastly better team, but check this out. In 1993 the Suns were 62-20 but the Pythagorean W/L was 57-25. The previous year when Hornacek was kinda their best player (along with Johnson and Majerle) the Suns won a respectable 53 games but they actually underachieved a bit since the Pythagorean was 56-26. In 1992 the Suns scored 112.1 and gave up 106.2 (+5.9). In 1993 they scored 113.4 and gave up 106.7 (+6.7). Basically the Suns were on paper about 1 game better in 1993, yet they were 9 games better in the actual standings. I guess Barkley was really good in the clutch, or just a lucky guy that year?
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