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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 19, 2020 22:14:36 GMT -5
You can't hold down talent. Shaq and Wilt in their Prime would dominate any era, Hakeem would give any center fits, Magic would dazzle no matter the scene, Curry would shoot the lights out and who's stopping Kareem's Skyhook? Oh I’m not denying any of THEIR talent, if anything they are under praised due to a lack of social media hype in their day. Those guys would dominate any era. If anything those guys would be more dominant today. I just find the narrative (usually pushes by old players turned commentators) that some guys today would somehow wither if a player was allowed to put a hand closer to their face etc I think if nothing else there would be a huge culture shock to a lot of today's players with how the "tough love worked"... let alone the hard fouls of yester year. On another note, Scottie was the 6th highest paid player on his team that final year. I know they mentioned he was not in the top 100 but he was paid less than Luc Longley. No wonder he was bitter. I'm intrigued to see what the future episodes bring. They've made it quite clear that Krause wanted to rebuild at any cost, and part of me does feel bad that he doesn't get a chance to defend himself and I don't think many will defend his thinking in the documentary. At the same time I do want to see throughout how he managed to ruin THAT team so badly. Also, I'm very amused by people who have grown up since 2000 being salty on social media bout how MJ is being celebrated.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 31,942
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Post by Perd on Apr 19, 2020 22:20:20 GMT -5
I’ve spent a lot of my life in the Chicago area. And I was a kid during the Jordan era. And like a lot of kids, I was obsessed with him. And that fascination still holds. I can acknowledge other plaher’s greatness. But none of them will ever enrapture me like Jordan. The iconography, and all that goes with it, will always be indelible in my mind.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 19, 2020 22:21:26 GMT -5
I see the potential that exists in the episodes to come, but dare I say the first two episodes of "The Last Dance" left me underwhelmed. Again, there's still eight episodes to go, so I may end up eating my words, but this footage of the 1997-98 Bulls has been kept behind closed doors for 20-plus years. Only recently was it greenlit to be aired for public consumption. There's obviously a lot of phenomenal material in it that will have people talking for days, weeks, and months on end. Yet the majority of the first two episodes was footage and backstories from Michael Jordan's past that we've known about for decades. Give me 20 minutes of that random must-win game in Anaheim against the Clippers where Jordan is rolling his eyes at his teammates on the floor, instead of another 20 minutes reliving his 63-point playoff game against the Celtics for the umpteenth time. Let's dive into greater detail on him chewing out Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper in practice rather than devoting more air time to him getting cut him his varsity basketball team in high school. I wanted to see what the Bulls' locker room was like after that early-season road losing streak rather than hearing more effusive praise about his tenure in Chapel Hill. Again, the best feels like its yet to come, but the first two episodes just feel like two missed opportunities. Not disagreeing with this either. Part of it is also clearly a reminder to today's world that Michael Jordan was as good as people have said if not better (and in a lot of ways, I feel at times people try to undermine how great he was) At the same time I do appreciate how they are using these moments to establish MJ's mindset (too many documentaries just talk about how he hated losing) and also so why Michael (and Scottie, and Phil going forward) didn't like Krause and how it fell apart. So far it's already been established Michael didn't trust management since they limited his minutes, Scottie and Phil were told they were gone after this season, and the seeds are already being placed that Kraus was going to hire Tim Floyd.
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Post by sfvega on Apr 19, 2020 22:38:30 GMT -5
Two things. You gotta give them time in a long series to lay the groundwork. Especially as sports fans who know most of the story, it's much like watching a wrestling doc. They have to get through a bunch of shit we already know to get to the stuff that we find new and entertaining. You can't start a story in the middle.
Also, I remember how poorly that rebuild went, that Krause couldn't wait to get to. The Bulls won the lottery after being f***ing awful in 98-99. They took Elton Brand 1st overall. Brand was a stud PF and would be a walking 20 and 10 for the next 10 years. Two whole years into that, Krause traded the best player the franchise had for the #2 overall pick in center Tyson Chandler in 2001 to pair with his already owned #4 overall pick....CENTER Eddy Curry. Not shockingly, Chandler was never as good as Brand, though was very good defensively. And Curry was a huge bust. But even if he had been good, the Bulls had a very hard time getting them both on the floor at the same time as they were both plodding true centers. It would have been easier to try and move up from #4 to #2 to pair true center Chandler with pure PF Brand, or just not make any trade and pair Curry with Brand. Krause was kind of a good GM, but just wanted to tinker and undo any good moves he possibly could. Including Pippen, who was his best player acquisition as a GM.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,869
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Post by BRV on Apr 19, 2020 23:14:25 GMT -5
The Biggest What If of the 90s NBA: Does Hakeem get a Ring if Jordan doesn't leave? It's such a cop-out answer, but I think the Rockets and Bulls split championships in 1994 and 1995. Houston wins in 1994. Chicago had nothing to solve Hakeem Olajuwon in his prime. He would have roasted Bill Wennington, Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, and Will Perdue. He was routinely laying waste to the best centers in the game in that era (27-9-3-4 against Patrick Ewing in the 1994 Finals, 35-12-5-4 against David Robinson in the 1995 Western Conference Finals, 33-11-5 against Shaquille O'Neal in the 1995 Finals), so it's not unreasonable to think The Dream could have averaged something like 40-15-5-5 against the Bulls' centers. But Chicago would have come back with a vengeance in 1995, and Houston throwing Clyde Drexler on the floor in front of an angry Michael Jordan is like throwing a rare steak in front of a rabid pit bull. Another What If is how long would the Bulls' run have lasted if they never broke up the band? Let's say they stick together after the 1998 Finals and decide to make a run at it into the new millennium. When does it end? How does it end? Who stops it? For my money, I think they probably win it again in 1999. Their aging legs would have benefited from a lockout-shortened season and Phil Jackson would've been savvy enough to rest veterans like Jordan, Pippen, Harper, Kerr, and Kukoc on those back-to-back games that were crammed into the regular season. They probably would've entered the playoffs as something like a 5 or 6 seed but that would have been a misnomer and they would have bullied their way through the Eastern Conference en route to the Finals. But I think the ride comes to a screeching halt in 2000. The Shaq and Kobe Lakers are on the ascension and by that point, Rodman's 38, Jordan's 36, Pippen and Kerr are 34, Kukoc and Longley are 31. If the Bulls even advance past the Pacers in the East, the Lakers topple them in the Finals.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 20, 2020 7:18:17 GMT -5
Two things. You gotta give them time in a long series to lay the groundwork. Especially as sports fans who know most of the story, it's much like watching a wrestling doc. They have to get through a bunch of shit we already know to get to the stuff that we find new and entertaining. You can't start a story in the middle. Also, I remember how poorly that rebuild went, that Krause couldn't wait to get to. The Bulls won the lottery after being f***ing awful in 98-99. They took Elton Brand 1st overall. Brand was a stud PF and would be a walking 20 and 10 for the next 10 years. Two whole years into that, Krause traded the best player the franchise had for the #2 overall pick in center Tyson Chandler in 01 to pair with his already owned #4 overall pick....CENTER Eddy Curry. Not shockingly, Chandler was never as good as Brand, though was very good defensively. Curry was a huge bust. But even if he had been good, the Bulls had a very hard time getting them both on the floor at the same time as they were both plodding true centers. It would have been easier to try and move up from #4 to #2 to pair true center Chandler with pure PF Brand, or just pair Curry with Brand. Krause was kind of a good GM, but just wanted to tinker and undo any good moves he possibly could. Including Pippen, who was his best player acquisition as a GM. Yea, in speaking on Brand to the Clippers, Q-rich and D-Miles talked about it on their podcast with Eddy Curry. Curry thought he was going to the Clippers because they needed a Center and Miles/Rich said they peeped the board and he was on there. Krause fell into the hype thinking Chandler was going to be the next KG and Curry is going to be Baby Shaq It just made no sense to draft two centers even in that era since neither guy can play PF. Keep in mind you drafted Marcus Fizer in 2000 an everybody assumed you only drafted him to trade him cause you had Elton Brand. Krause traded well but he had a few drafting bust on his resume. Even when he finally got the young athletic squad he wanted after trading for Jalen Rose, that club still didn't mash well since you had 3 big men on that squad. Maybe Jay Williams and Rose could have worked but I have my reservations. He had the young talent to make deals and make the team better but he held on to the wrong pieces and obviously couldn't predict Jay Williams would shred his knee to pieces.
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ToyfareMark
Vegeta
A WINNER IS YOU!
In Hutch I trust!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by ToyfareMark on Apr 20, 2020 7:51:37 GMT -5
Meh, they never won any Super Bowls.
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Post by sfvega on Apr 20, 2020 7:58:53 GMT -5
Two things. You gotta give them time in a long series to lay the groundwork. Especially as sports fans who know most of the story, it's much like watching a wrestling doc. They have to get through a bunch of shit we already know to get to the stuff that we find new and entertaining. You can't start a story in the middle. Also, I remember how poorly that rebuild went, that Krause couldn't wait to get to. The Bulls won the lottery after being f***ing awful in 98-99. They took Elton Brand 1st overall. Brand was a stud PF and would be a walking 20 and 10 for the next 10 years. Two whole years into that, Krause traded the best player the franchise had for the #2 overall pick in center Tyson Chandler in 01 to pair with his already owned #4 overall pick....CENTER Eddy Curry. Not shockingly, Chandler was never as good as Brand, though was very good defensively. Curry was a huge bust. But even if he had been good, the Bulls had a very hard time getting them both on the floor at the same time as they were both plodding true centers. It would have been easier to try and move up from #4 to #2 to pair true center Chandler with pure PF Brand, or just pair Curry with Brand. Krause was kind of a good GM, but just wanted to tinker and undo any good moves he possibly could. Including Pippen, who was his best player acquisition as a GM. Yea, in speaking on Brand to the Clippers, Q-rich and D-Miles talked about it on their podcast with Eddy Curry. Curry thought he was going to the Clippers because they needed a Center and Miles/Rich said they peeped the board and he was on there. Krause fell into the hype thinking Chandler was going to be the next KG and Curry is going to be Baby Shaq It just made no sense to draft two centers even in that era since neither guy can play PF. Keep in mind you drafted Marcus Fizer in 2000 an everybody assumed you only drafted him to trade him cause you had Elton Brand. Krause traded well but he had a few drafting bust on his resume. Even when he finally got the young athletic squad he wanted after trading for Jalen Rose, that club still didn't mash well since you had 3 big men on that squad. Maybe Jay Williams and Rose could have worked but I have my reservations. He had the young talent to make deals and make the team better but he held on to the wrong pieces and obviously couldn't predict Jay Williams would shred his knee to pieces. Precisely. I forgot about Fizer. Man, what a mess. That era wasn't the era of the stretch 5 like today, but it was hardly the 60s-80s. You had plenty of PFs with midrange games and some 3 point shooters. KG, Duncan, Webber, Harrington, etc had good midrange games and Dirk, Antoine Walker, Sheed even took it beyond the 3 point line regularly. Curry and Chandler were both very much low block players. They ended up with one season where they both played over 25 minutes/game, then Curry was gone. Krause was just like a compulsive gambler, which is funny to say because he and MJ should have bonded over that. But Krause would take the guys he actually hit on and made any part of his positive reputation on, like Pippen and Brand and have no loyalty whatsoever to them and want to deal them for the next spin of the wheel. Dude, you don't trade a cash prize for more lottery tickets. You take the money. Pippen and Brand were the best players he ever acquired. He got rid of Brand for pennies on the dollar and they had to talk him out of dealing Scottie multiple times. I mean, who's another #1 overall pick who was good and got dealt within 2 years? I can't think of it ever happening. Rose and Jay may have worked, but Krause would have gotten antsy. He also dealt away Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen. And while Jalen was the best player out of the 3, the Bulls were hardly dealing from a position of strength by giving up two quality starters for one. Jerry cornered the market on diminishing returns.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 20, 2020 8:27:13 GMT -5
Yea, in speaking on Brand to the Clippers, Q-rich and D-Miles talked about it on their podcast with Eddy Curry. Curry thought he was going to the Clippers because they needed a Center and Miles/Rich said they peeped the board and he was on there. Krause fell into the hype thinking Chandler was going to be the next KG and Curry is going to be Baby Shaq It just made no sense to draft two centers even in that era since neither guy can play PF. Keep in mind you drafted Marcus Fizer in 2000 an everybody assumed you only drafted him to trade him cause you had Elton Brand. Krause traded well but he had a few drafting bust on his resume. Even when he finally got the young athletic squad he wanted after trading for Jalen Rose, that club still didn't mash well since you had 3 big men on that squad. Maybe Jay Williams and Rose could have worked but I have my reservations. He had the young talent to make deals and make the team better but he held on to the wrong pieces and obviously couldn't predict Jay Williams would shred his knee to pieces. Precisely. I forgot about Fizer. Man, what a mess. That era wasn't the era of the stretch 5 like today, but it was hardly the 60s-80s. You had plenty of PFs with midrange games and some 3 point shooters. KG, Duncan, Webber, Harrington, etc had good midrange games and Dirk, Antoine Walker, Sheed even took it beyond the 3 point line regularly. Curry and Chandler were both very much low block players. They ended up with one season where they both played over 25 minutes/game, then Curry was gone. Krause was just like a compulsive gambler, which is funny to say because he and MJ should have bonded over that. But Krause would take the guys he actually hit on and made any part of his positive reputation on, like Pippen and Brand and have no loyalty whatsoever to them and want to deal them for the next spin of the wheel. Dude, you don't trade a cash prize for more lottery tickets. You take the money. Pippen and Brand were the best players he ever acquired. He got rid of Brand for pennies on the dollar and they had to talk him out of dealing Scottie multiple times. I mean, who's another #1 overall pick who was good and got dealt within 2 years? I can't think of it ever happening. Rose and Jay may have worked, but Krause would have gotten antsy. He also dealt away Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen. And while Jalen was the best player out of the 3, the Bulls were hardly dealing from a position of strength by giving up two quality starters for one. Jerry cornered the market on diminishing returns. Yeah, at that point you knew what kind of 4 you needed in the league that was a talented bunch and Elton Brand was in that talented bunch. It's just ass backwards to think 7'1 Tyson Chandler was going to be your KG and Curry was going to be a baby Shaq. You don't gamble on both, you gamble on one or the other and either guy would been well off playing behind Brand The only top pick off the top of my head that got traded that fast was Webber. He got traded from Golden St to Washington but that was because him and Donnie Nelson was beefing and the Warriors at least got 3 1st round picks out the deal Rose and Jay may have worked but yeah I agree Krause would been antsy to make a deal. I always felt that was a backwards deal anyway. Artest came into the league starting almost every game and playing defense. Even if you didn't know Brad Miller would be as productive as he was, that season you traded him he was still getting like 12 and 9. In fairness to Rose, even though I always felt his name was bigger then his production, he was coming into his own and had his best years in a Bulls uniform. They were trash and he was clearly the best player but he put up the numbers.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Apr 20, 2020 9:18:54 GMT -5
Jerry was a f***ing idiot.
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Post by Beets by Schrute on Apr 20, 2020 11:20:02 GMT -5
Jerry Krause is the reality of Mr. McMahon doing the “I’m going to kill my creation with a lethal dose of poison,” promo.
Just dub over the WWF with the Bulls and Ric Flair with Phil Jackson.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 20, 2020 11:37:37 GMT -5
Jerry Krause is the reality of Mr. McMahon doing the “I’m going to kill my creation with a lethal dose of poison,” promo. Just dub over the WWF with the Bulls and Ric Flair with Phil Jackson. I can't wait for the eventual storyline about the Cowboys and how Jerry Jones ego f***ed them over
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Post by Dave the Dave on Apr 20, 2020 15:00:10 GMT -5
Maybe I misunderstood by why was Walt Frazier giving Michael shit for not being taller after he got drafted? Walt was shorter than MJ
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 21, 2020 4:12:35 GMT -5
Maybe I misunderstood by why was Walt Frazier giving Michael shit for not being taller after he got drafted? Walt was shorter than MJ People expected Mike to be this big hope and that's usually reserved for Centers or the Guards and Big men compliment each other
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on Apr 22, 2020 8:50:51 GMT -5
Maybe I misunderstood by why was Walt Frazier giving Michael shit for not being taller after he got drafted? Walt was shorter than MJ People expected Mike to be this big hope and that's usually reserved for Centers or the Guards and Big men compliment each other Clyde's era was the era of Bill Russell (he likely grew up in awe of their dominance considering), Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain where those guys changed their teams immediately so he always respected the big man and building your team inside-out. But there was a bit of old guard pettiness, with Jordan dunking and sticking his tongue out.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 22, 2020 9:00:46 GMT -5
People expected Mike to be this big hope and that's usually reserved for Centers or the Guards and Big men compliment each other Clyde's era was the era of Bill Russell (he likely grew up in awe of their dominance considering), Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain where those guys changed their teams immediately so he always respected the big man and building your team inside-out. But there was a bit of old guard pettiness, with Jordan dunking and sticking his tongue out. Without question there was def some bitterness and hate. Jordan came in with flair and turned a shit team around in an instant in terms of attention Having a dominant big man still won you championships and Clyde along with others thought it was premature to dub him great before he did shit and he was never going to do it without a big man to guide him
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Post by sfvega on Apr 22, 2020 9:25:06 GMT -5
You'd think that people would understand that Jordan can impact the game while not being a big man when he was a major part of the Carolina team as a freshman who beat the Ewing-led Georgetown in the NC and Ralph Sampson-led Virginia twice. Granted, Worthy was MOP of the tourney, but Jordan improved by leaps and bounds from then before he left UNC. They act like Magic and Isiah Thomas weren't thought to be shit coming out because they weren't centers.
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Post by cabbageboy on Apr 22, 2020 14:54:47 GMT -5
Magic DID occasionally plan center though, like in the Game 6 vs. Philly in 1980 with a hurt Kareem.
Anyway, The Last Dance is right up my alley because I still remember all of this stuff. I didn't really watch the NBA during the Bulls's first two titles and by the 3rd one I was watching again but was fully in the corner of the Suns. But by this point though? Oh man. I was watching with intent.
I'll go ahead and throw this out there: Was Jerry Krause wrong about most of these guys? Rodman did nothing after leaving Chicago, just a forgettable year with the Lakers and a few games with Dallas. Kerr got a couple more rings with the Spurs but he was an end of the bench guy that maybe averaged 4 points. Kukoc did hang around with the Bulls for a few years and I can't believe he didn't try to get out of there and go to L.A. or somewhere where he might win again. The centers amounted to little after that. But let's get into Pippen the most here. Was Krause wrong about him? Would you really want to keep a guy coming off back surgery that openly cussed you out on the team bus? Pippen never made another All Star team after leaving Chicago. He was just a guy post 1998. Perhaps Pippen should have forced a renegotiation of his deal or held out? I do think the notion of Pippen being the 2nd best player in the NBA was laughable however. In 1997 Karl Malone won the MVP and even if you think Jordan was better (he was) Malone was easily the #2 guy in the league, with Stockton perhaps being #3.
This brings me to Krause's fatal mistake, namely alienating himself from Phil Jackson. Telling Phil he was done after 1998 was possibly the dumbest thing any GM has ever done in any sport. Doing so also mega pissed off Jordan and when you piss off the greatest player AND greatest coach ever then where you can even go after that? What top tier coach would ever go to Chicago? What big name free agents can you attract? The answer is no one and the Bulls spent a huge amount of time rebuilding after 1998 and only the few healthy Rose years produced any results until he got hurt. Jordan retired, Pippen retired, but Jackson kept coaching until 2011 or so and won another 5 titles with the Lakers.
As far as the Bulls winning more, I dunno. It was mentioned that the Bulls would have had problems with Hakeem but what on earth would they do with Duncan and Robinson with the Spurs in 1999? By 2000 it's a useless comparison since Jackson was coaching the Lakers, so he can't be in two places at once (Ron Harper was also on both teams).
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Post by BRAINFADE on Apr 22, 2020 15:33:04 GMT -5
Really enjoyed the first two episodes. As a kid growing up in the UK in the 90s, MJ and the Bulls were pretty much as big as the NBA got over here, but it was never massively covered, so most of this stuff is brand new to me.
Is the 97-98 season the one where Rodman blew off practice to work an episode of Nitro?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 22, 2020 16:03:42 GMT -5
Really enjoyed the first two episodes. As a kid growing up in the UK in the 90s, MJ and the Bulls were pretty much as big as the NBA got over here, but it was never massively covered, so most of this stuff is brand new to me. Is the 97-98 season the one where Rodman blew off practice to work an episode of Nitro? Yup During the NBA finals, he left before Game 4 to do the match with Hogan
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