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Post by Joe Neglia on May 20, 2020 2:34:19 GMT -5
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Post by mauled on May 20, 2020 2:48:40 GMT -5
It should be said that Bret has responded: Bret Hart made a short statement to The Wrap, offering a little bit of his own perspective: While I am not interested in engaging in any more media mudslinging between Martha and myself especially in light of a global pandemic, I will say that our fallout is multifaceted. To say that it only involved being able to access and use my WWE footage and photos for future projects would merely be an oversimplification and inaccurate. I will not comment any further on the matter. It's hard to know who to believe. |
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Post by ChitownKnight on May 20, 2020 2:57:33 GMT -5
It should be said that Bret has responded: Bret Hart made a short statement to The Wrap, offering a little bit of his own perspective: While I am not interested in engaging in any more media mudslinging between Martha and myself especially in light of a global pandemic, I will say that our fallout is multifaceted. To say that it only involved being able to access and use my WWE footage and photos for future projects would merely be an oversimplification and inaccurate. I will not comment any further on the matter. It's hard to know who to believe. I can see Bret valuing the wwe as a huge part of his and his brothers legacy (which it obviously is) so he sees being recognized by them as an honor, while Martha thinks the opposite and with the rest of the family siding against Martha as well, I can see how things went sour. The article also said he was mad about Owen not being allowed in the hall of fame. Now Vince himself is a Piece of shit and I’m sure even Bret knows that, but I’m sure he values their wwe careers |
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Post by Prince Petty on May 20, 2020 3:56:39 GMT -5
Martha is editorialising a little there. Bret continued to have no relationship with Vince for several years after. It was the stroke and Vince calling him in hospital that started the thaw. A change in perspective, the fear of dying, Vince being able to manipulate an emotionally confused and vulnerable man, call it what you like. I'm Bret's own words, he "didn't want to be forgotten" which is kind of sad, because he never would have been. But that's Bret's outlook - the wrestling world and wrestling fans were his life, and he set his own value in how that world saw him. He seems to have fallen into that trap when it comes to Owen. From what I know about Owen, he'd have been the first to tell Bret that it doesn't matter what wrestling fans remember about you, it's not that important. Owen was the one person in that family who seemed to see wrestling for what it was - a job that provided for his family. |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 20, 2020 6:04:08 GMT -5
Martha is editorialising a little there. Bret continued to have no relationship with Vince for several years after. It was the stroke and Vince calling him in hospital that started the thaw. A change in perspective, the fear of dying, Vince being able to manipulate an emotionally confused and vulnerable man, call it what you like. I'm Bret's own words, he "didn't want to be forgotten" which is kind of sad, because he never would have been. But that's Bret's outlook - the wrestling world and wrestling fans were his life, and he set his own value in how that world saw him. He seems to have fallen into that trap when it comes to Owen. From what I know about Owen, he'd have been the first to tell Bret that it doesn't matter what wrestling fans remember about you, it's not that important. Owen was the one person in that family who seemed to see wrestling for what it was - a job that provided for his family. Yeah, it makes you wonder if being the youngest kind of shielded Owen from a lot of the worst habits his siblings picked up when Stampede was still a working territory, because he seemed to have his head on straighter than anyone else of his generation in Hart House. Owen was in his early 20s when he started working for WWF, which meant he was still a student when Stampede was flickering out and Vince's takeover really began in earnest, so I'm guessing that meant he didn't get so much of his life wrapped up in the business the way his siblings did. Just the fact that Martha seemed to have nothing to do with wrestling outside of coming to see Owen wrestle fits into that: so many of the other Harts met their spouses through the industry, or in groups of friends who'd come to Stampede shows regularly, etc., but Martha seems to have mostly been an outsider, and that likely meant both she and Owen had healthier perspectives on life. I guess that's something that can happen in any walk of life where there's a "family business": it can become a bubble that skews what those of us outside the bubble would see as someone's proper priorities, and especially in a cutthroat industry like pro wrestling it just seems to often lead to disaster after disaster, and broken family after broken family. |
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on May 20, 2020 6:52:55 GMT -5
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Post by jason1980s on May 20, 2020 7:07:51 GMT -5
There was probably a time when Owen thought he wouldn't make it much further in wrestling. He probably figured that up to maybe late 1993, early 1994 so I'm sure especially early in their marriage Owen and Martha talked about leaving wrestling. Owen was such a good guy that his heel turn and how hot he got was probably unexpected.
I don't doubt for a second that Bret spoke to Martha about footage even while he was with WCW. He also filed a lawsuit a year or two ago against a doctor who did hand surgery on him with either he and/or his attorney citing it made it impossible for him to sign autographs. Meanwhile he was and still is doing autograph shows where his signature has stayed the same as it has for 20-30 years and he has one of the longest lines of any wrestler. I love the man and all he did for wrestling and me and my buddies at work talk wrestling, I tell them I am the Bret even if that means they are the Hulk or the Diesel. I want to be the Bret of my job but maybe not so much in personal life.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 20, 2020 7:16:05 GMT -5
It should be said that Bret has responded: Bret Hart made a short statement to The Wrap, offering a little bit of his own perspective: While I am not interested in engaging in any more media mudslinging between Martha and myself especially in light of a global pandemic, I will say that our fallout is multifaceted. To say that it only involved being able to access and use my WWE footage and photos for future projects would merely be an oversimplification and inaccurate. I will not comment any further on the matter. It's hard to know who to believe. I dont think so. Bret even says to say that the fall out is only cause of the rights to his footage are an oversimplification and inaccurate. So he admits that it was part of it. I think to him he sees other things that Martha doesn't. But I do think how Bret has handled trying to get Owen into the Hall of Fame has burned a lot of that bridge with Martha. This isn't to defend Bret at all as I said in another thread (and have said multiple times) with how Bret was raised in the business he thinks a lot differently and to most of us it seems irrational. To him the legacy of a wrestler is the most important thing |
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Post by Prince Petty on May 20, 2020 8:26:35 GMT -5
Martha is editorialising a little there. Bret continued to have no relationship with Vince for several years after. It was the stroke and Vince calling him in hospital that started the thaw. A change in perspective, the fear of dying, Vince being able to manipulate an emotionally confused and vulnerable man, call it what you like. I'm Bret's own words, he "didn't want to be forgotten" which is kind of sad, because he never would have been. But that's Bret's outlook - the wrestling world and wrestling fans were his life, and he set his own value in how that world saw him. He seems to have fallen into that trap when it comes to Owen. From what I know about Owen, he'd have been the first to tell Bret that it doesn't matter what wrestling fans remember about you, it's not that important. Owen was the one person in that family who seemed to see wrestling for what it was - a job that provided for his family. Yeah, it makes you wonder if being the youngest kind of shielded Owen from a lot of the worst habits his siblings picked up when Stampede was still a working territory, because he seemed to have his head on straighter than anyone else of his generation in Hart House. Owen was in his early 20s when he started working for WWF, which meant he was still a student when Stampede was flickering out and Vince's takeover really began in earnest, so I'm guessing that meant he didn't get so much of his life wrapped up in the business the way his siblings did. Just the fact that Martha seemed to have nothing to do with wrestling outside of coming to see Owen wrestle fits into that: so many of the other Harts met their spouses through the industry, or in groups of friends who'd come to Stampede shows regularly, etc., but Martha seems to have mostly been an outsider, and that likely meant both she and Owen had healthier perspectives on life. I guess that's something that can happen in any walk of life where there's a "family business": it can become a bubble that skews what those of us outside the bubble would see as someone's proper priorities, and especially in a cutthroat industry like pro wrestling it just seems to often lead to disaster after disaster, and broken family after broken family. I think it's Martha's book, where she talks about going to watch a wrestling show with Owen for the first time and Bret (or another brother) asks Owen, "is she smart?" meaning, obviously, 'does she know it's scripted?' And Martha was offended because she thought he was asking if she was dumb. She knew nothing about the business, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the things Owen found attractive in her - one person in his life who isn't devoted to wrestling. Jerry McDevitt is a scumbag, but this isn't anything new. Vince accused Bret of something similar, when he said that Bret wasn't interested in Owen's death but just obsessed with getting the rights to his own footage. It seems their tactic is always to attack something that's tangentially related and say 'they don't even care about Owen, not like we do.' Disgusting. If they truly wanted to find out what happened that night, they'd have stopped everything and started investigating. They didn't. They told Jeff Jarrett to stop crying and go wrestle. It should be said that Bret has responded: Bret Hart made a short statement to The Wrap, offering a little bit of his own perspective: While I am not interested in engaging in any more media mudslinging between Martha and myself especially in light of a global pandemic, I will say that our fallout is multifaceted. To say that it only involved being able to access and use my WWE footage and photos for future projects would merely be an oversimplification and inaccurate. I will not comment any further on the matter. It's hard to know who to believe. I dont think so. Bret even says to say that the fall out is only cause of the rights to his footage are an oversimplification and inaccurate. So he admits that it was part of it. I think to him he sees other things that Martha doesn't. But I do think how Bret has handled trying to get Owen into the Hall of Fame has burned a lot of that bridge with Martha. This isn't to defend Bret at all as I said in another thread (and have said multiple times) with how Bret was raised in the business he thinks a lot differently and to most of us it seems irrational. To him the legacy of a wrestler is the most important thing I think Bret genuinely believes that Owen's wrestling career was an integral part of him as a person, and that not celebrating that means not celebrating the man. And that's understandable, because it's something that Bret shared exclusively, of all the family members, with Owen. Stu wasn't there, Bruce and Ellie weren't there, Martha wasn't there. I can see why it's important to Bret. But it doesn't mean shit to Martha and her kids. They had the other side of Owen - the loving dad who had a job that took up a lot of his time, but who provided for them and was making plans for their future. Neither party is wrong, because Owen was a wrestler and a husband and father, but I think Bret's perspective is more out of whack. |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on May 20, 2020 8:42:08 GMT -5
To me with the Bret and Martha situation there are no right and wrong. Both are grieving for Owen in different ways. Although I tend to side more with Martha here. The other Harts (besides Stu and Helen) are pieces of trash for doing what they did
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 20, 2020 9:24:49 GMT -5
Martha is editorialising a little there. Bret continued to have no relationship with Vince for several years after. It was the stroke and Vince calling him in hospital that started the thaw. That's not the part that has me aghast. I was referring to Bret using her lawsuit as a way to get the rights to his footage, and he admits as much in his clapback to her statement: |
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on May 20, 2020 9:30:15 GMT -5
I think it's a little misleading to say Bret had no relationship with Vince/WWE for several years after the lawsuit. Vince called Bret after he suffered his stroke in 2002, which was sort of the beginning of the fences being mended. The DVD was 2005. The Hall of Fame was 2006. They were in discussions in 2005 for Bret to wrestle Vince at WrestleMania 22, though I believe the Lloyd's of London insurance situation ultimately led Bret not to do it. This turned into Shawn versus Vince instead. So Bret was open to doing business with WWE in the mid-2000s. Participating on the DVD and Hall of Fame is basically working with them. So, no, Bret didn't continue to distance himself from WWE for years after the settlement.
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Post by mauled on May 20, 2020 10:17:44 GMT -5
I think it's a little misleading to say Bret had no relationship with Vince/WWE for several years after the lawsuit. Vince called Bret after he suffered his stroke in 2002, which was sort of the beginning of the fences being mended. The DVD was 2005. The Hall of Fame was 2006. They were in discussions in 2005 for Bret to wrestle Vince at WrestleMania 22, though I believe the Lloyd's of London insurance situation ultimately led Bret not to do it. This turned into Shawn versus Vince instead. So Bret was open to doing business with WWE in the mid-2000s. Participating on the DVD and Hall of Fame is basically working with them. So, no, Bret didn't continue to distance himself from WWE for years after the settlement. You have to remember they had a burial DVD all ready to go on Bret. Bret even said Vince showed it to him. Its why he agreed to do that DVD, so it's not like everything was fine and rosy. If he hadn't of done it, you just would've had footage of Shawn/Trips/Flair and Hogan burying Bret out there and that would be it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 10:34:03 GMT -5
It should be said that Bret has responded: Bret Hart made a short statement to The Wrap, offering a little bit of his own perspective: While I am not interested in engaging in any more media mudslinging between Martha and myself especially in light of a global pandemic, I will say that our fallout is multifaceted. To say that it only involved being able to access and use my WWE footage and photos for future projects would merely be an oversimplification and inaccurate. I will not comment any further on the matter. It's hard to know who to believe. I dont think so. Bret even says to say that the fall out is only cause of the rights to his footage are an oversimplification and inaccurate. So he admits that it was part of it. I think to him he sees other things that Martha doesn't. But I do think how Bret has handled trying to get Owen into the Hall of Fame has burned a lot of that bridge with Martha. This isn't to defend Bret at all as I said in another thread (and have said multiple times) with how Bret was raised in the business he thinks a lot differently and to most of us it seems irrational. To him the legacy of a wrestler is the most important thing Martha's comment earlier indicates that it was not just the footage; she calls it "the first fracture." So she's well aware (moreso than any of us) of all the reasons... I think for Bret, the big issue is Owen's WWE legacy. Martha won't allow them to celebrate Owen (for good reason IMO) and thus it never will; since the vast majority of it was at WWE Bret doesn't see his legacy being celebrated "properly." As the years have progressed, I think he personally has had a lot of problems with Owen going "unsung" by newer generations of fans; or rather, unsung for all the things that aren't related to his death. He's probably heard from more than enough fans and colleagues the cries for Owen to be honored, and since he keeps a foot in the biz unlike Martha and her kids, his idea of honoring Owen's legacy and her's are just not the same, and it's something he can't see eye to eye on with Martha which leads to bad blood and eventually a parting of ways. I could *almost* - and this is pure speculation - see Bret wanting to tear his footage away from WWE back in '99 as part of an endeavor to tear ALL the Hart legacy away from them; that way the Harts themselves - Bret, Martha, etc - could honor Owen themselves with direct control of that stuff. Even with this special answering so many questions, it didn't answer them all and maybe even opened up new avenues for other questions. |
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 20, 2020 10:53:39 GMT -5
I dont think so. Bret even says to say that the fall out is only cause of the rights to his footage are an oversimplification and inaccurate. So he admits that it was part of it. I think to him he sees other things that Martha doesn't. But I do think how Bret has handled trying to get Owen into the Hall of Fame has burned a lot of that bridge with Martha. This isn't to defend Bret at all as I said in another thread (and have said multiple times) with how Bret was raised in the business he thinks a lot differently and to most of us it seems irrational. To him the legacy of a wrestler is the most important thing Martha's comment earlier indicates that it was not just the footage; she calls it "the first fracture." So she's well aware (moreso than any of us) of all the reasons... I think for Bret, the big issue is Owen's WWE legacy. Martha won't allow them to celebrate Owen (for good reason IMO) and thus it never will; since the vast majority of it was at WWE Bret doesn't see his legacy being celebrated "properly." As the years have progressed, I think he personally has had a lot of problems with Owen going "unsung" by newer generations of fans; or rather, unsung for all the things that aren't related to his death. He's probably heard from more than enough fans and colleagues the cries for Owen to be honored, and since he keeps a foot in the biz unlike Martha and her kids, his idea of honoring Owen's legacy and her's are just not the same, and it's something he can't see eye to eye on with Martha which leads to bad blood and eventually a parting of ways. I could *almost* - and this is pure speculation - see Bret wanting to tear his footage away from WWE back in '99 as part of an endeavor to tear ALL the Hart legacy away from them; that way the Harts themselves - Bret, Martha, etc - could honor Owen themselves with direct control of that stuff. Even with this special answering so many questions, it didn't answer them all and maybe even opened up new avenues for other questions. Yeah I dont think Bret's motives are fully selfish. The biggest sin I see Bret has done is that he seems to vilify Martha throughout Owen's life... at least that is what Bret's book tends to indicate |
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on May 20, 2020 11:17:33 GMT -5
I think it's a little misleading to say Bret had no relationship with Vince/WWE for several years after the lawsuit. Vince called Bret after he suffered his stroke in 2002, which was sort of the beginning of the fences being mended. The DVD was 2005. The Hall of Fame was 2006. They were in discussions in 2005 for Bret to wrestle Vince at WrestleMania 22, though I believe the Lloyd's of London insurance situation ultimately led Bret not to do it. This turned into Shawn versus Vince instead. So Bret was open to doing business with WWE in the mid-2000s. Participating on the DVD and Hall of Fame is basically working with them. So, no, Bret didn't continue to distance himself from WWE for years after the settlement. You have to remember they had a burial DVD all ready to go on Bret. Bret even said Vince showed it to him. Its why he agreed to do that DVD, so it's not like everything was fine and rosy. If he hadn't of done it, you just would've had footage of Shawn/Trips/Flair and Hogan burying Bret out there and that would be it. I didn't forget the whole "Screwed: The Bret Hart Story" thing. I just didn't think it changes anything I pointed out. |
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 20, 2020 12:45:50 GMT -5
Martha is editorialising a little there. Bret continued to have no relationship with Vince for several years after. It was the stroke and Vince calling him in hospital that started the thaw. That's not the part that has me aghast. I was referring to Bret using her lawsuit as a way to get the rights to his footage, and he admits as much in his clapback to her statement: If I remember correctly Bret met with Vince after Owen's death and Vince was wearing a wire cause Vince met with the police about something and they wanted to see if Bret would be hostile or something (Dont remember the details exactly) and Vince supposedly said he stated he would do anything for Bret to try and make things right after Owen's death and he asked for control of his tape library so nobody could tear him down and Vince initially agreed but as the lawsuit went on they said no agreement was made so Bret tried to get that in lawsuit... again I'd have to re-read that. I also remember Bret being upset about the settlement in his book. Reading between the lines I think in some ways he felt as though Martha accepting the settlement was stopping the fight. Especially since Bret had a huge falling out with his siblings around this time |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on May 20, 2020 13:58:48 GMT -5
Bret is so concerned about the legacy of his family that he went on 15 shoot interviews to talk about how the fathers of his nieces and nephews were so high on crack that they almost ruined the biggest show in the company's overseas history.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 17:16:44 GMT -5
I totally believe Martha regarding the footage issue. That is something Bret Hart would definitely do based on everything I have read/heard about him. Hell, didn't he reconcile with Vince only after they did a "Screwed" DVD about him? I believe even before he reconciled with Vince he made a point in a talk show (forgot which one) where he mentioned not having access to any of his footage. I often wonder how much of a mark for himself he would have to be to rebuild a relationship with the man who "screwed" him professionally and was responsible for the death of his brother, but can't even forgive Hogan for not doing a job, or Flair, or whoever else has a petty beef with. I don't doubt for a second that the quote Martha had above is accurate.
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Post by mauled on May 21, 2020 1:13:15 GMT -5
I totally believe Martha regarding the footage issue. That is something Bret Hart would definitely do based on everything I have read/heard about him. Hell, didn't he reconcile with Vince only after they did a "Screwed" DVD about him? I believe even before he reconciled with Vince he made a point in a talk show (forgot which one) where he mentioned not having access to any of his footage. I often wonder how much of a mark for himself he would have to be to rebuild a relationship with the man who "screwed" him professionally and was responsible for the death of his brother, but can't even forgive Hogan for not doing a job, or Flair, or whoever else has a petty beef with. I don't doubt for a second that the quote Martha had above is accurate. Regards Hogan, it was for burying him in WCW and then bad mouthing him on that burial DVD in 04. It wasn't just not doing a job. As for Flair again the bad mouthing on the burial DVD and saying in his book that Bret used his brothers death to make money. |
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