Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Oct 20, 2020 14:22:04 GMT -5
Dean Ambrose didn't get squashed by Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. He got more offence in than bigger stars like Cena and Reigns did in matches against Brock. It was a disappointing match because Ambrose had unrealistic expectations of doing a CZW/Mick Foley style match with blood and barbed wire and flaming tables and Brock wasn't willing to do any of that stuff. It didn't exactly hurt his momentum either. 8 weeks later he was WWE champion then a few weeks after that he was first pick in the draft and won the first and only Shield triple threat match. He was at his peak. It was the disappointing match/feud with Ziggler and being overshadowed by Styles/Cena/Ellsworth/Miz on Smackdown that brought him down a peg. The rhetoric wasn't that he got squashed by Lesnar, it's that Lesnar didn't "kill him" WWE rightfully pushed the narrative that Brock had to kill Dean because that was the story but what it was, was a more hardcore version of a Brock match. That match got nowhere near the peak it should have gotten. WWE was behind Ambrose so it didn't slow him down, Brock didn't hold up his end of the bargain in the story due to being lazy and training for MMA All Brock had to do was beat the shit out of Ambrose. Ambrose gets his hope spots and Brock keeps hitting him with move after move and nothing stops Dean. Brock sells it as what is this guy made of and eventually Dean gives out but gets the respect of the beast So, no the story was never that Dean got squashed. It was that Dean didn't get his "Austin bad ass moment" but WWE still sold it as such because they had plans for Dean Absolutely spot on. The build to the match was Ambrose being a crazy asshole who wanted to take down Brock, and making it clear that he was going to go to crazy extremes to do it. Instead, Brock beats him handily. The only "extreme" I remember is Ambrose piling a bunch of chairs and looking like a f***ing goofball because Brock wouldn't play ball.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 20, 2020 14:22:24 GMT -5
Yeah, you can only judge that moment badly in hindsight because they went full force with it But at that time, it was a genius move. Brock was built as the final boss monster, Cena got his ass whooped like no one ever did and people forget that, that reign of Brock was actually good It's the shit after for years that tarnishes it Some of you are confusing SummerSlam 2013 and SummerSlam 2014. Brock squashed Cena in 2014. Orton and Triple H screwed Daniel Bryan in 2013. Oh... that's my bad <_< Cena vs. Bryan was a good match and should have been enough to solidify Byan as a main event face... but it became clear it was just a way to get heat back on Orton... and Corporation part 47... that only got better in hindsight after they were dragged kicking and screaming to the proper Mania 30 ending... but it is pretty damn obvious that wasn't the plan.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 20, 2020 14:22:28 GMT -5
Yeah, you can only judge that moment badly in hindsight because they went full force with it But at that time, it was a genius move. Brock was built as the final boss monster, Cena got his ass whooped like no one ever did and people forget that, that reign of Brock was actually good It's the shit after for years that tarnishes it Some of you are confusing SummerSlam 2013 and SummerSlam 2014. Brock squashed Cena in 2014. Orton and Triple H screwed Daniel Bryan in 2013. Whoops On that token, i've never heard anyone say Summerslam 2013 was up their with greatest of all time finishes. People were pissed that DB got the title and lost it and we had another heel authority run coming
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 20, 2020 14:24:29 GMT -5
Some of you are confusing SummerSlam 2013 and SummerSlam 2014. Brock squashed Cena in 2014. Orton and Triple H screwed Daniel Bryan in 2013. Whoops On that token, i've never heard anyone say Summerslam 2013 was up their with greatest of all time finishes. People were pissed that DB got the title and lost it and we had another heel authority run coming That too I've never heard anyone treat it like it was a great finish... that's probably why I got it confused... For the full "story" as it happened it was a pretty decent starting point... but... again That was clearly not the plan.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 20, 2020 14:29:35 GMT -5
Whoops On that token, i've never heard anyone say Summerslam 2013 was up their with greatest of all time finishes. People were pissed that DB got the title and lost it and we had another heel authority run coming That too I've never heard anyone treat it like it was a great finish... that's probably why I got it confused... For the full "story" as it happened it was a pretty decent starting point... but... again That was clearly not the plan. And even then going into the event, you had people already upset and debating if Bryan win over Cena counts as "clean" because Cena was leaving due to injury and only reason he was dropping the title The end result makes it one of the best stories but that clearly wasn't their intention. They tried everything to bring Bryans heat to someone else and it didn't work
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Post by Feyrhausen on Oct 20, 2020 14:31:39 GMT -5
Agreed. In the match Hurricane was clearly outmatched but he put up a hell of a fight and never gave up. If he had lost it would have been the definition of looking good in defeat. I mean Rock was a legend and Hurricane was a low card cruiserweight. He got all the offense he should have. JRs commentary made that match. Yeah, like this is one of the more clear examples of putting someone over. The interactions alone with a hot heel rock would been enough. He put him over everyday possible. Sold his insults and let him have a legit back and forth that showed Hurricane can hang with The Rock on the mic And then in ring where he got hope spots and picked up a W (it don’t matter that it wasn’t clean). Add on JR as you said doing some classic play calling and giving Hurricane a big boost to the TV audience And of course Triple H had to shut all that down after Mania with a real Hurri squash.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,946
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Post by chazraps on Oct 20, 2020 14:41:55 GMT -5
You seem obsessed with this, lol. Rock put Hurricane over in their segments and just beating him was a big deal. The pop was deafening. I believe it's Shane Helms favourite moments as a wrestler. Lol. I probably am, because enough people misremember the match as being a 5 star classic where Hurricane won even remotely clean. Maybe I am hard on the feud/match. Nobody has ever called it a 5 star classic. Come on now.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on Oct 20, 2020 14:49:41 GMT -5
Hot take- And I'm not looking to vilify here, Overblown as the worst? Check out the WWE section every Monday at 11 PM.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 15:02:42 GMT -5
The Mr. Perfect gimmick being this instant success when he was in reality he was a guy in the midcard who even with the unbeaten gimmick didn't get any heat until he got Genius as his manager and started calling out Hulk Hogan a year into his run.
The Hogpen match being bad booking for HHH when in reality it was a heel overcoming the odds by beating a babyface in his own gimmick match with a babyface referee.
Jericho's phantom world title win being some kind of launching pad for him, 90 minutes after it happened he was pinned clean by Triple H in a tag match and he stayed in the exact same spot as before for another 18 months.
Eddie beating Brock being this amazing shock even to the "smart" fans when the Cena/Angle/Show no 1 contenders match gave it away that Eddie was winning and defending at Wrestlemania.
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Oct 20, 2020 15:20:00 GMT -5
The Mr. Perfect gimmick being this instant success when he was in reality he was a guy in the midcard who even with the unbeaten gimmick didn't get any heat until he got Genius as his manager and started calling out Hulk Hogan a year into his run. And even that didn't draw. It was Hogan's worst-performing program to that point. (And while we're at it, there was NEVER, EVER any point where "Terry Taylor and Curt Hennig were both in contention for the Mr. Perfect gimmick." That is a misinterpretation of a "what if" that Taylor floated in a shoot interview, simply remarking that they both arrived at the same time.) Here's a big one: the AWA really didn't skip a beat when Hogan bolted. Obviously it would have been better to have him in 1984 than not have him, but '84 was a tremendous year for them anyway. Long-term it was a killer, but business didn't really start hitting the skids for them until very late '85. Re: the Goldberg/Goldust thing...I don't think that particular segment was a killer in and of itself, but it was a canary in the coal mine. It was a very, very strong and worrying indication that the WWE didn't really know how to market Goldberg and how they were going to ramrod him into the WWE Machine even though his whole appeal was that he was different.
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bob
Salacious Crumb
The "other" Bob. FOC COURSE!
started the Madness Wars, Proudly the #1 Nana Hater on FAN
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Post by bob on Oct 20, 2020 15:30:42 GMT -5
WWE loves to say that DX and the tank turned the tide in the Monday night wars --- it didn't do shit
I barely remember seeing it all these years later
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Post by Cyno on Oct 20, 2020 16:07:18 GMT -5
WWE loves to say that DX and the tank turned the tide in the Monday night wars --- it didn't do shit I barely remember seeing it all these years later It wasn't even a tank lol. Though Triple H is such a self-important bullshit artist about those sorts of things that I'm not surprised that became the WWE narrative.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by XIII on Oct 20, 2020 16:09:12 GMT -5
WWE loves to say that DX and the tank turned the tide in the Monday night wars --- it didn't do shit I barely remember seeing it all these years later I wasn’t missing a minute of Raw back then and I don’t even remember seeing it live. I remember seeing the awful DX fighter jet skit, but don’t even remember the infamous tank. What else was on that episode?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 20, 2020 16:11:49 GMT -5
What's funny is in the WCW thread... Russo is apparently the first person that used the "DX TANK WAS THE TURNING POINT!" and tried to use it in WCW as a selling point.
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malloc
Mephisto
asian cookbook
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Post by malloc on Oct 20, 2020 16:14:28 GMT -5
Think I have said this a million times but...the "tank", the "tank" the f***ing "tank" bemoaned by most, scyophantically praised with out an ounce of irony by WWE. In addition pretty much every other minor thing of interest done by HHH being one of the most ground breaking or historically important moments of which ever decade it took place in. Mate, you have done some interesting things but you will never be remembered like Hogan, Flair, Rock or Austin just accept it.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 20, 2020 16:20:19 GMT -5
I'm gonna scroll through this thread so I'm writing this now before I check - 1997-2001 WWF. Yeah he did. The win wasn’t clean but his interactions with Hurricane put him over. Hurricane didn’t get jobbed out like he would today if those segments happened Agreed. In the match Hurricane was clearly outmatched but he put up a hell of a fight and never gave up. If he had lost it would have been the definition of looking good in defeat. I mean Rock was a legend and Hurricane was a low card cruiserweight. He got all the offense he should have. JRs commentary made that match. Didn't Triple H squash Hurricane the week after? I see that mentioned a lot.
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Post by lavelleuk on Oct 20, 2020 16:22:17 GMT -5
The Mr. Perfect gimmick being this instant success when he was in reality he was a guy in the midcard who even with the unbeaten gimmick didn't get any heat until he got Genius as his manager and started calling out Hulk Hogan a year into his run. And even that didn't draw. It was Hogan's worst-performing program to that point. (And while we're at it, there was NEVER, EVER any point where "Terry Taylor and Curt Hennig were both in contention for the Mr. Perfect gimmick." That is a misinterpretation of a "what if" that Taylor floated in a shoot interview, simply remarking that they both arrived at the same time.) Here's a big one: the AWA really didn't skip a beat when Hogan bolted. Obviously it would have been better to have him in 1984 than not have him, but '84 was a tremendous year for them anyway. Long-term it was a killer, but business didn't really start hitting the skids for them until very late '85. Re: the Goldberg/Goldust thing...I don't think that particular segment was a killer in and of itself, but it was a canary in the coal mine. It was a very, very strong and worrying indication that the WWE didn't really know how to market Goldberg and how they were going to ramrod him into the WWE Machine even though his whole appeal was that he was different. The goldberg one - at the time I had never watched WCW never used internet and was a bit if a mark. I had heard of goldberg and had started going off wrestling but turned back in to see him, a guy I only knew by look and name That skit instantly made me not care about him as much, and while he was still better than likes of HHH and Kane to me I never really bought into him as unstoppable and it prevented me from getting back into wrestling So yeah, if anything I always think the people who disagree on that are wrong, WCW fans would have instantly seen he wouldnt be same goldberg, and guys who never saw him before will have seen a guy instantly lose his killer aura. Was a stupid skit that shows just how bad WWE have been at knowing his to book stars for SO SO long
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 20, 2020 16:29:21 GMT -5
I'm gonna scroll through this thread so I'm writing this now before I check - 1997-2001 WWF. Agreed. In the match Hurricane was clearly outmatched but he put up a hell of a fight and never gave up. If he had lost it would have been the definition of looking good in defeat. I mean Rock was a legend and Hurricane was a low card cruiserweight. He got all the offense he should have. JRs commentary made that match. Didn't Triple H squash Hurricane the week after? I see that mentioned a lot. Near enough a week after, yes. I remember reading that Rock wasn't happy about it, either
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Post by Feyrhausen on Oct 20, 2020 16:32:42 GMT -5
I'm gonna scroll through this thread so I'm writing this now before I check - 1997-2001 WWF. Agreed. In the match Hurricane was clearly outmatched but he put up a hell of a fight and never gave up. If he had lost it would have been the definition of looking good in defeat. I mean Rock was a legend and Hurricane was a low card cruiserweight. He got all the offense he should have. JRs commentary made that match. Didn't Triple H squash Hurricane the week after? I see that mentioned a lot. If I remember correctly it was after Mania. Maybe the first Raw after. Just looked it up. March 31 2003.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by XIII on Oct 20, 2020 16:32:48 GMT -5
Think I have said this a million times but...the "tank", the "tank" the f***ing "tank" bemoaned by most, scyophantically praised with out an ounce of irony by WWE. In addition pretty much every other minor thing of interest done by HHH being one of the most ground breaking or historically important moments of which ever decade it took place in. Mate, you have done some interesting things but you will never be remembered like Hogan, Flair, Rock or Austin just accept it. I’m a HHH fan but it is hilarious at how hard he tries to shoehorn himself into the greatness categories. He is so jealous of the Rock, likely to this day. lol
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